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The manipulation capitalism uses to keep us all in line - 8/29/2012 11:33:14 PM   
stellauk


Posts: 1360
Status: offline
THE PEOPLE AS PAVLOV'S DOGS

quote:


Propaganda is not always obvious. No longer does it take the form of full-on jingoistic portrayals of the enemy, whoever it might be at any given time.

The term is certain to bring up images of those hostile xenophobic posters from the first world war urging working people to sacrifice their bodies and lives for their respective ruling classes. Images, too, of dictators adorned with bouquets of flowers from adoring children will spring to mind.

Modern propaganda is a much more sophisticated beast than that of the early 20th century, but its results are no less effective. Its destructive reach extends way beyond the theatre of war and conquest, influencing heavily the decisions we all make every day as consumers.

Not only are we indoctrinated into supporting rapacious wars around the globe, we are programmed on a mass scale to devote our lives to consumption, no matter what effect it has on our collective well-being.

Propaganda today is presented to us along with the faces of well-known celebrities, displaying the latest crap we ought to buy. In television and the print media, propaganda is pretentiously cloaked in airs of "objectivity" and "impartiality."

The first BBC report on the unprovoked invasion of Iraq in 2003 reveals a lot. Plush words such as "precision-guided bombing," "missile attacks" and "raids" were used to describe the actions of the US/British invaders.

Compare this with the tiresome language used to describe anyone other than Western governments who use violence.

The resistance movements in Iraq, Palestine, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Guatemala and all the other countries whose populations are considered by us in the west as non-people are always "terrorists," "bombers," "gunmen" and "murderers." The invaders, of course, are "our boys." Indeed, "imperialism" is a word rarely heard on the airwaves.

Reporting of the long-running occupation of Palestine is consistently ridded with propaganda, half-truths and lies. Mainstream outlets aim for "balanced" and "unbiased" reporting on this issue, as though there were a moral equivalence between occupier and occupied.

Mainstream media is also intensely selective of what atrocities and injustices go reported or unreported. The suppression of the Solidarity movement in Poland in the 1980s was news. The genocide of more than a million people carried out by General Suharto, capitalism's dictator, was not news. His crimes remain largely unknown in the west. He was "our" dictator. He provided "stability" to a volatile region, as did Gadaffi, Mubarak, Batista, Pinochet and the endless list of other dictators propped up by the West's "democratic" governments.



quote:


Edward Bernays, a nephew of Sigmund Freud, is often described as having been the "father of public relations." In his book, Propaganda - Bernays was quite explicit in his admission that he was a propagandist - he wrote: "If we understand the mechanisms and motives of the group mind, it is now possible to control and regiment the masses according to our will without their knowing it." This was called "engineering consent," the aim of public relations.

Bernays was the darling of the advertising industry, which, of course, is propaganda by another name. His insights were sought by a range of corporations seeking to boost sales and profits. Among his most famous feats was the encouragement of large numbers of women to take up smoking, which had previously been seen as a masculine pursuit.

Cigarettes were referred to as "torches of freedom" and smoking was said to be a blow against gender inequality. Sales of cigarettes skyrocketed. Bernays's legacy of manipulation and dishonesty continues today in the modern advertising and public relations industries.

Barack Obama's election victory in 2008 was one of the greatest accomplishments of propaganda since the second world war. The world was greeted with "hope" and "change," with many hoping the closing of the Bush era would represent the end of the imperialist US. It was, of course, all image and no content. It succeeded in raising the hopes of millions. This was the power of "Brand Obama," which earned him the accolade of Advertising Age's marketer of the year for 2008.

Since taking office, Obama has continued George Bush's wars and presided over the imprisonment of truth teller Bradley Manning. He has enthusiastically embraced the use of unmanned drones, which have slaughtered more than 2,000 people.

According the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, at least 392 of the victims were civilians - 175 of whom were children. The people who were sold "hope" and "change" by Obama's vast propaganda network have been sorely let down.

Following the crash of 2008, public and political anger across the globe was geared towards those who caused the crisis, namely, bankers and the rich.

The crisis took the mainstream media by surprise, whose "impartial" economic commentators, having been thoroughly schooled in neoliberalism, saw the boom of the 2000s as proof that capitalism had triumphed over all other systems.

The agenda of the same "experts" who failed to foresee the crisis now dictates political discourse. The blame has been shifted onto low-paid public sector workers and those in receipt of welfare.

"The deficit," a term most people would not have heard discussed before the Great Recession, is now the big political issue of the day. Yet, for most of the population, it is a non-issue. Noam Chomsky correctly pointed out in his recent book, Occupy: "The issue is joblessness, not the deficit. There's a deficit commission but there's no joblessness commission."

The mainstream narrative, pushed by the same gang of neoliberal economists who failed to foresee the crisis, is tiring.

The welfare state must be dismantled. Health care must be privatised. The public sector has to shrink. "There is no alternative," we are told. Yet, if there are no alternatives, why do we bother having elections, parliaments and other supposedly democratic institutions? What's the point of democracy if nothing can be changed, if we have to persistently bend to the will of "the markets"?

Aside from the broader political scene, our everyday behaviour, too, is heavily influenced by propaganda. We are now exposed to thousands of advertisements every hour of our lives.

The aim of this wasteful industry, true to the legacy of Bernays, is to influence human behaviour on a mass scale. It plays on our most primeval desires and, among many people, seeds a constant feeling of deep dissatisfaction. It entices us to continue destroying the planet we rely on for survival for the sake of a short-term thrill, while at the same time driving us further into personal debt and diminishing our savings.



THE LOGIC BEHIND TAXING THE 1 PER CENT

quote:


No-one has generated better historical data on the incomes of the super-rich than Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez, who have emerged over recent years as the world's most respected authorities on income concentration.

But Piketty and Saez haven't done much work for the general public on the impact of top-heavy income distribution on our daily economic lives.

That just changed.



quote:


Conservatives have an explanation for these numbers.

High tax rates on high incomes, they claim, discourage entrepreneurs.

Lowering high rates, the claim adds, encourages them. Entrepreneurs who can keep more of their income go on to invest in their economy, create jobs and make everybody happier.

In the bigger economy lightly taxed entrepreneurs build for us, conservatives freely admit, the rich will make plenty of money and even increase their income share. But the rest of us shouldn't mind any of this at all.

Thanks to the rich, they argue, we get to live in larger, more buoyant economies.

In their new Tax Justice Focus paper, Piketty, Saez, and Stantcheva put these claims to the test. If the conservative argument reflected reality, they note, nations that cut tax rates on the rich substantially should show much higher economic growth rates than nations that still levy stiff taxes on their richest.

In fact, the three economists point out, reality tells no such story.

Nations that have "made large cuts in top tax rates such as the United Kingdom or the US have not grown significantly faster than countries that did not, such as Germany or Denmark," their research shows.

So what's going on in countries where the rich all of a sudden face substantially smaller tax bills?

In these countries, Piketty and his colleagues say, top executives don't suddenly - and magically - become more "productive."

They instead find themselves with a huge incentive to play the system, to squeeze all the personal profit their power enables them to squeeze out of the companies they run.

In countries that have sheared tax rates on the rich, the more these executives can squeeze the more they can keep.

The result? The top 1 per cent in nations that go easy on the wealthy at tax time proceed, as the authors put it, to "grab at the expense of the remaining 99 per cent."

The three authors don't go into chapter and verse on this money-grabbing in their new paper. They don't need to.

Millions of US citizens already know this grabbing behaviour first-hand. They've seen corporate execs routinely outsource and downsize, slash wages and attack pensions, cheat consumers and fix prices.



There you have it.. Tax cuts for the rich don't help the economy and don't create jobs, no matter what you have been told in the media.

But isn't this the basis of Republican thinking and the Mitt Romney campaign?

President Bush and his supporters argued that high income tax cuts would benefit everybody because they would unleash investment that would spark widespread economic prosperity.

The US national debt has just hit a record breaking $16 trillion, more than any other country anytime in history.

It should be glaringly obvious by now to anyone that cutting taxes for the rich did not create jobs. Furthermore the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan created a major unnecessary burden for the US taxpayer. You have a huge chunk of the national debt right there.

From 2000 to 2007 the US lost one in five (3.5 million) middle-class jobs. The vast majority of the jobs created under Bush pay low wages under $18,000 a year without benefits. Meanwhile corporate profits are at their highest ever since 1960. The 2005 CBO data show that changes in law enacted since January 2001 increased the deficit by $539 billion in 2005. In 2010 when all the Bush tax cuts were finally phased in some 52.5% of benefits went to the richest 5% of taxpayers.

Yet the Romney campaign and Republican strategy is still based on the same unworkable ideology and the same tired rhetoric that 'tax cuts and deregulation' are the answer to American economic problems.

It hasn't happened, it isn't happening now, and it is unlikely ever to happen.

The neoliberal policies of Obama haven't done enough. But this doesn't change the fact that the Republicans don't really stand for anything and nobody is asking them to.

And this is what needs to change preferably before anyone gets elected.

_____________________________

Usually when you have all the answers for something nobody is interested in listening.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: The manipulation capitalism uses to keep us all in ... - 8/30/2012 4:57:49 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
The US National Debt would still be climbing without the Bush tax cuts. Obama's budgets are $1T+ every year, yet the Bush tax cuts are $2.5T/decade. Additionally, the Bush tax cuts on "the rich" account for $800B over that decade. Theoretically, if we apply these cuts over 12 years, the National Debt wouldn't be $16T, but $13T. Better, but, not much.

The problem wasn't the tax cuts. The problem with the jobs wasn't that they were low paying, it's that they disappeared when the recession hit. Liberals bitch and moan all the time about low-paying jobs and then bitch and moan about outsourcing of low-paying jobs. Which is it?

Bush spent too damn much. Obama is spending too damn much. Had we kept spending in line with Clinton's highest spending year, we'd be in a surplus now. Big surplus. We didn't do that. Bush cut tax rates (which isn't a problem in and of themselves). The top brackets have a larger share of the income tax load compared to the Clinton years. The percentage of people paying no Federal income taxes is higher after the Bush tax cuts compared to Clinton's Administration (and, that started before the recession). Got to omb.gov and search out the historical budget spreadsheet. You'll see that the combined on-budget/off-budget tax revenues are higher now than under Clinton. May even be at their highest ever right now. But, spending increases have outpaced revenue increases.

http://www.costofwar.com

The cost of the wars since 2001: $1.37T Add in the $3T estimated cost of 12 years of Bush tax cuts (which is high) and we're sitting at $4.37T.

National Debt

09/30/2010 $13.56T
09/30/2009 $11.9T
09/30/2008 $10.0T
09/30/2007 $9.0T
09/30/2006 $8.5T
09/30/2005 $7.9T
09/30/2004 $7.4T
09/30/2003 $6.7T
09/30/2002 $6.2T
09/30/2001 $5.8T
09/30/2000 $5.67T

According to that site, Bush's budget year deficits (from 9/2001 to 9/2009;l even though Bush did impact spending in 2001, and Obama did impact spending in 2009) increased the National Debt by $6.1T (still more than the $4.37T from 12 years of tax cuts and 11 years of war). Obama, using your $16T (it's close, but I think it's still about $15.8T currently) increased the National Debt $4.1T ($3.9T by my closer guesstimation), which is still larger than 12 years of Bush tax cuts and 11 years of war.

Fuck it. I'm going to go all the way through this thing now.

OMB.gov Historical Tables

Total Budget Details (#'s in thousands)
Year Revenues Spending Net
1992 1,091,208 1,381,529 -290,321
1993 1,154,335 1,409,386 -255,051
1994 1,258,566 1,461,753 -203,186
1995 1,351,790 1,515,742 -163,952
1996 1,453,053 1,560,484 -107,431
1997 1,579,232 1,601,116 -21,884
1998 1,721,728 1,652,458 69,270
1999 1,827,452 1,701,842 125,610
2000 2,025,191 1,788,950 236,241
2001 1,991,082 1,862,846 128,236
2002 1,853,136 2,010,894 -157,758
2003 1,782,314 2,159,899 -377,585
2004 1,880,114 2,292,841 -412,727
2005 2,153,611 2,471,957 -318,346
2006 2,406,869 2,655,050 -248,181
2007 2,567,985 2,728,686 -160,701
2008 2,523,991 2,982,544 -458,553
2009 2,104,989 3,517,677 -1,412,688
2010 2,162,724 3,456,213 -1,293,489
2011 2,303,466 3,603,061 -1,299,595
2012 (est) 2,468,599 3,795,547 -1,326,948
2013 (est) 2,901,956 3,803,364 -901,408
2014 (est) 3,215,293 3,883,095 -667,802
2015 (est) 3,450,153 4,059,866 -609,713
2016 (est) 3,680,085 4,328,840 -648,755
2017 (est) 3,919,275 4,531,723 -612,448

Current estimations are that the 2012 net is going to come in at $1.1T, not the $1.3T estimated in the table.

Clinton's largest revenue? 2000 @ $2.025T
Obama's smallest revenue? 2010 @ $2.162T
Obama's largest revenue? 2012 @ $2.468T

It's all about the spending. Bush's 8 years (2002-2009) had total revenues of $17.273T ($2.159T average) and spending of $20.820T ($2.602T average). As an average, revenues increased under Bush $134B over Clinton's best revenue year, but also increased spending from Clinton's worst year (2001) by $740B.

Obama's lowest spending year (including the 4 years he'd have if elected) is 2010 (his first year) @ $3.456T.

The problem in the US is Corporatism, aka Crony Capitalism. It isn't truly Capitalism. The Federal Government is in bed with Wall Street. This is as true for Obama as it was for Bush. How many Goldman-Sach's executives have been nominated, hired, or appointed by Bush and Obama? Shit loads. Instead of holding the Administrations accountable, we're having our focus diverted to manufactured racism and demonizing of wealth.



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to stellauk)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: The manipulation capitalism uses to keep us all in ... - 8/30/2012 7:18:32 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Obama is spending too damn much.

he bribed voters with their own (taxpayer) money.. and voters fell for it.. just as they have fallen for it with previous administrations/Presidents and they will fall for it this election & future elections too..

Obama didnt have a clue what to do when he took office, that is quite apparent (did ya'll notice how fast his hair turned grey).. he still doesnt today but imo neither does Romney..

The US is so screwed..


_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: The manipulation capitalism uses to keep us all in ... - 8/30/2012 8:24:04 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

The US National Debt would still be climbing without the Bush tax cuts. Obama's budgets are $1T+ every year, yet the Bush tax cuts are $2.5T/decade. Additionally, the Bush tax cuts on "the rich" account for $800B over that decade. Theoretically, if we apply these cuts over 12 years, the National Debt wouldn't be $16T, but $13T. Better, but, not much.

The problem wasn't the tax cuts. The problem with the jobs wasn't that they were low paying, it's that they disappeared when the recession hit. Liberals bitch and moan all the time about low-paying jobs and then bitch and moan about outsourcing of low-paying jobs. Which is it?

Bush spent too damn much. Obama is spending too damn much. Had we kept spending in line with Clinton's highest spending year, we'd be in a surplus now. Big surplus. We didn't do that. Bush cut tax rates (which isn't a problem in and of themselves). The top brackets have a larger share of the income tax load compared to the Clinton years. The percentage of people paying no Federal income taxes is higher after the Bush tax cuts compared to Clinton's Administration (and, that started before the recession). Got to omb.gov and search out the historical budget spreadsheet. You'll see that the combined on-budget/off-budget tax revenues are higher now than under Clinton. May even be at their highest ever right now. But, spending increases have outpaced revenue increases.

http://www.costofwar.com

The cost of the wars since 2001: $1.37T Add in the $3T estimated cost of 12 years of Bush tax cuts (which is high) and we're sitting at $4.37T.

National Debt

09/30/2010 $13.56T
09/30/2009 $11.9T
09/30/2008 $10.0T
09/30/2007 $9.0T
09/30/2006 $8.5T
09/30/2005 $7.9T
09/30/2004 $7.4T
09/30/2003 $6.7T
09/30/2002 $6.2T
09/30/2001 $5.8T
09/30/2000 $5.67T

According to that site, Bush's budget year deficits (from 9/2001 to 9/2009;l even though Bush did impact spending in 2001, and Obama did impact spending in 2009) increased the National Debt by $6.1T (still more than the $4.37T from 12 years of tax cuts and 11 years of war). Obama, using your $16T (it's close, but I think it's still about $15.8T currently) increased the National Debt $4.1T ($3.9T by my closer guesstimation), which is still larger than 12 years of Bush tax cuts and 11 years of war.

Fuck it. I'm going to go all the way through this thing now.

OMB.gov Historical Tables

Total Budget Details (#'s in thousands)
Year Revenues Spending Net
1992 1,091,208 1,381,529 -290,321
1993 1,154,335 1,409,386 -255,051
1994 1,258,566 1,461,753 -203,186
1995 1,351,790 1,515,742 -163,952
1996 1,453,053 1,560,484 -107,431
1997 1,579,232 1,601,116 -21,884
1998 1,721,728 1,652,458 69,270
1999 1,827,452 1,701,842 125,610
2000 2,025,191 1,788,950 236,241
2001 1,991,082 1,862,846 128,236
2002 1,853,136 2,010,894 -157,758
2003 1,782,314 2,159,899 -377,585
2004 1,880,114 2,292,841 -412,727
2005 2,153,611 2,471,957 -318,346
2006 2,406,869 2,655,050 -248,181
2007 2,567,985 2,728,686 -160,701
2008 2,523,991 2,982,544 -458,553
2009 2,104,989 3,517,677 -1,412,688
2010 2,162,724 3,456,213 -1,293,489
2011 2,303,466 3,603,061 -1,299,595
2012 (est) 2,468,599 3,795,547 -1,326,948
2013 (est) 2,901,956 3,803,364 -901,408
2014 (est) 3,215,293 3,883,095 -667,802
2015 (est) 3,450,153 4,059,866 -609,713
2016 (est) 3,680,085 4,328,840 -648,755
2017 (est) 3,919,275 4,531,723 -612,448

Current estimations are that the 2012 net is going to come in at $1.1T, not the $1.3T estimated in the table.

Clinton's largest revenue? 2000 @ $2.025T
Obama's smallest revenue? 2010 @ $2.162T
Obama's largest revenue? 2012 @ $2.468T

It's all about the spending. Bush's 8 years (2002-2009) had total revenues of $17.273T ($2.159T average) and spending of $20.820T ($2.602T average). As an average, revenues increased under Bush $134B over Clinton's best revenue year, but also increased spending from Clinton's worst year (2001) by $740B.

Obama's lowest spending year (including the 4 years he'd have if elected) is 2010 (his first year) @ $3.456T.

The problem in the US is Corporatism, aka Crony Capitalism. It isn't truly Capitalism. The Federal Government is in bed with Wall Street. This is as true for Obama as it was for Bush. How many Goldman-Sach's executives have been nominated, hired, or appointed by Bush and Obama? Shit loads. Instead of holding the Administrations accountable, we're having our focus diverted to manufactured racism and demonizing of wealth.




So if we cut spending by about 75% we will hold the debt to what it is today (so long as we dont change anything ever) and we will still be left with the interest on that debt spiraling up every day, so we dont pay down the debt or any interest slash spending by 75% and we are still increasing the debt.

There are about 6 different tax cuts coming undone in the perfect storm long about december to early next year, some of what isnt being taken into consideration here either.

However it is interesting to note with all the taxes that are lowered on all the people the revenues are actually up, and that we must have a hell of a thriving economy, hah?

The cost of the Iraq war is much higher, since most of it is actually off book as emergency appropriations and coming due every day which is making the near term numbers look worse, and since we dont have an actual budget, and we are operating on a budget from 2009 or so, there are alot of appropriations bills coming out of congress which is the off book spending .

In there is also (a difference between debt and deficit) the old USPS in debt numbers but not in deficit or budget numbers since it is off book. And will magically appear at accounting time as debt.

So, cutting tax rates is a problem in and of themselves.  Since we are robbing from future payments in medicare and social security even now by those tax cuts. As has been pointed out repeatedly, nominal tax rates and actual tax rates are apples and rabbit turds by comparison.

I have some issues with the cbo and even government accounting since it is made up of at least 345 accounting systems but  it is as ballpark as is saying east about 5 miles.


Spending problems?  Assuredly.  Taxing problems?  Assuredly.
                                      

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: The manipulation capitalism uses to keep us all in ... - 8/30/2012 11:03:05 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
So if we cut spending by about 75% we will hold the debt to what it is today (so long as we dont change anything ever) and we will still be left with the interest on that debt spiraling up every day, so we dont pay down the debt or any interest slash spending by 75% and we are still increasing the debt.
There are about 6 different tax cuts coming undone in the perfect storm long about december to early next year, some of what isnt being taken into consideration here either.
However it is interesting to note with all the taxes that are lowered on all the people the revenues are actually up, and that we must have a hell of a thriving economy, hah?
The cost of the Iraq war is much higher, since most of it is actually off book as emergency appropriations and coming due every day which is making the near term numbers look worse, and since we dont have an actual budget, and we are operating on a budget from 2009 or so, there are alot of appropriations bills coming out of congress which is the off book spending .
In there is also (a difference between debt and deficit) the old USPS in debt numbers but not in deficit or budget numbers since it is off book. And will magically appear at accounting time as debt.
So, cutting tax rates is a problem in and of themselves.  Since we are robbing from future payments in medicare and social security even now by those tax cuts. As has been pointed out repeatedly, nominal tax rates and actual tax rates are apples and rabbit turds by comparison.
I have some issues with the cbo and even government accounting since it is made up of at least 345 accounting systems but  it is as ballpark as is saying east about 5 miles.
Spending problems?  Assuredly.  Taxing problems?  Assuredly.


I don't know if you downloaded the omb.gov excel file or not, but it is broken into three categories, "total," "on budget" and "off budget." All my #'s quoted were from the "Total" category, so it takes into account both on-budget and off-budget items.

If I am understanding you correctly (not a guarantee), are you saying that "off book" spending isn't accounted for as an "off budget" spend? Or, are you saying that there is yet another category of spending that is "double secret" off budget (which wouldn't surprise me)?



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: The manipulation capitalism uses to keep us all in ... - 8/30/2012 11:25:18 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
Yeah, no that off budget is social security and postal service only.

The emergency appropriations are not on or off budget, but off book entirely.

They wont show in budget (which is where deficits are) but will eventually show in debt and thats why you see the dramatic rise in debt now, when the spending is not that much greater than before in reality.

I mean those figures as you know are lying in off budget anyway, the ss is still in (barely) positive income while the postal service is sucking us dry.  But hey!!!! all is well, looks like thats been in positive territory for awhile and should offset the deficits some hah?

Wrongo!!!!  Yes, Virginia there is a double secret probation at work.  And thats why there is confusion and inumeracy in abundance.   And aint nobody anywhere lookin to lay an exact, square, straight skinny on your ass.

To kick your ass a little further into confusion, current payroll taxes into social security trust fund are over there in the revenues column on budget.   So, the on budget is even more vomitorius than you are led to believe.

So, you are one of the many fucked amongst us, and don't know when we get a straight answer.  Just reading the numbers is not the accurate picture.  

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: The manipulation capitalism uses to keep us all in ... - 8/30/2012 3:09:09 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Yeah, no that off budget is social security and postal service only.
The emergency appropriations are not on or off budget, but off book entirely.
They wont show in budget (which is where deficits are) but will eventually show in debt and thats why you see the dramatic rise in debt now, when the spending is not that much greater than before in reality.
I mean those figures as you know are lying in off budget anyway, the ss is still in (barely) positive income while the postal service is sucking us dry.  But hey!!!! all is well, looks like thats been in positive territory for awhile and should offset the deficits some hah?
Wrongo!!!!  Yes, Virginia there is a double secret probation at work.  And thats why there is confusion and inumeracy in abundance.   And aint nobody anywhere lookin to lay an exact, square, straight skinny on your ass.
To kick your ass a little further into confusion, current payroll taxes into social security trust fund are over there in the revenues column on budget.   So, the on budget is even more vomitorius than you are led to believe.
So, you are one of the many fucked amongst us, and don't know when we get a straight answer.  Just reading the numbers is not the accurate picture.  


The dirty rat bastards...

And people wonder why I distrust government as much as I do?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: The manipulation capitalism uses to keep us all in ... - 8/30/2012 3:26:00 PM   
KYsissy


Posts: 781
Joined: 5/12/2005
Status: offline
And people are amazed that so many are investing in lead. Maybe they are not so crazy after all.

_____________________________

"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went."
Will Rogers, 1897-1935

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: The manipulation capitalism uses to keep us all in ... - 8/30/2012 3:31:10 PM   
KYsissy


Posts: 781
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The problem with taxing the rich is that the rich are not where the money is. The middle class is where the bulk of tax dollars come from. While socking it to the rich might make you feel good for a bit it really does not help the situation much.

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(in reply to stellauk)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: The manipulation capitalism uses to keep us all in ... - 8/30/2012 3:33:36 PM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

Fuck it. I'm going to go all the way through this thing now.


Thank you.

The first thing I see when I have a look at those tables is that the government spending is growing more slowly than the growth rate of the economy up until GWB takes over. That is to say, the finances were well under control until GWB entered the picture, and then a massive overspending started. When Obama took over, the spending was brought back down to index rates, meaning that he isn't recovering the losses in his first term, but has brought the economy back under control. It stays under control through his first term, slowly recovering the losses. Moving on to the estimated figures, the losses are recouped at a much higher rates for his second term, meaning that if he stays in power, then these figures indicate that you should be back on track at the end of that period.

Of course, this is a simplified calculation, based on nominal long term index rates, but it does show that the actual recession has been halted by Obama, that GWB is uncontroversially responsible for the current state of affairs, that you were doing well earlier, that Obama has brought fiscal sanity back to the USA, and that the projected figures indicate that Obama will actually succeed in saving the economy if he gets another term. Romney is suggesting a series of changes that bring you back into actual recession and cementing the fiscal problems to an extent that will completely decimate the economy, going by these figures alone.

I had no idea Obama was doing this well domestically.

ETA: I did not factor in what Ron mentioned.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


< Message edited by Aswad -- 8/30/2012 3:43:35 PM >


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: The manipulation capitalism uses to keep us all in ... - 8/30/2012 3:43:00 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KYsissy

The problem with taxing the rich is that the rich are not where the money is. The middle class is where the bulk of tax dollars come from. While socking it to the rich might make you feel good for a bit it really does not help the situation much.


The whole economy is the middle class, because that is how the system has worked since the world ditched the gold standard. Which is why it is so devastating that GWB removed so much of the US economy and the attendant growth. Cutting 20% of the middle class is for all long term purposes in practice the same as cutting 20% of the economy, as well as a similar fraction of the economic growth rate. This, incidentally, is also why lifting up the lower classes is beneficial to everyone in a fiscal sense (and it also reduces spending by lowering crime rates and such at the same time).

In Greece and Italy, tax evasion- particularly by the rich- can account for almost the entire deficit that buried their economy.

In the USA, this isn't evasion, but politics. The effect is the same, though.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to KYsissy)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: The manipulation capitalism uses to keep us all in ... - 8/30/2012 6:27:42 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk
Modern propaganda is a much more sophisticated beast than that of the early 20th century, but its results are no less effective. Its destructive reach extends way beyond the theatre of war and conquest, influencing heavily the decisions we all make every day as consumers.

Not only are we indoctrinated into supporting rapacious wars around the globe, we are programmed on a mass scale to devote our lives to consumption, no matter what effect it has on our collective well-being.


Without even getting into the larger issues you're raising, just think about how much money we waste getting stuff for each other because we've been convinced that holidays work like that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/retail/story/2012-01-05/target-sales-december/52388078/1
December's results offer an important benchmark for retailers and economists. During the holiday shopping season, merchants can make up to 40% of their annual revenue.



(in reply to stellauk)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: The manipulation capitalism uses to keep us all in ... - 8/30/2012 6:45:36 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Fuck it. I'm going to go all the way through this thing now.

Thank you.
The first thing I see when I have a look at those tables is that the government spending is growing more slowly than the growth rate of the economy up until GWB takes over. That is to say, the finances were well under control until GWB entered the picture, and then a massive overspending started. When Obama took over, the spending was brought back down to index rates, meaning that he isn't recovering the losses in his first term, but has brought the economy back under control. It stays under control through his first term, slowly recovering the losses. Moving on to the estimated figures, the losses are recouped at a much higher rates for his second term, meaning that if he stays in power, then these figures indicate that you should be back on track at the end of that period.
Of course, this is a simplified calculation, based on nominal long term index rates, but it does show that the actual recession has been halted by Obama, that GWB is uncontroversially responsible for the current state of affairs, that you were doing well earlier, that Obama has brought fiscal sanity back to the USA, and that the projected figures indicate that Obama will actually succeed in saving the economy if he gets another term. Romney is suggesting a series of changes that bring you back into actual recession and cementing the fiscal problems to an extent that will completely decimate the economy, going by these figures alone.
I had no idea Obama was doing this well domestically.
ETA: I did not factor in what Ron mentioned.
IWYW,
— Aswad.


Aswad, I generally enjoy reading your thoughtful and well-stated posts. This one, though, tops them all. I really enjoyed it. As a matter of fact, I enjoyed it so much, I was laughing out loud, for real.

GWB is "uncontroversially" responsible?!? LMFAO! Only in a Liberal's wettest of dreams! Bush shares responsibility, but it sure as fuck ain't all his. Good Lord, man. You can't truly be serious with all that shit! Was the dot.com bubble Bush's fault? Was it his fault when it burst? Was 9/11 Bush's fault, too?

Dude. Man up. Find out who was really at fault. It wasn't just Bush.

And, Obama has prolonged the misery, just like after the Great Depression. Kudoes on another fantastic post!

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: The manipulation capitalism uses to keep us all in ... - 8/31/2012 12:12:31 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
That was uncalled for.

Allow me to borrow a phrase from VAA's tagline: "The buck stops here."

I will say without reservation that the head of state should always hold himself to that standard, and should always be held to it by his people.

Adjusting for economic growth is a necessary part of even the most superficial analysis of economics. If the fiscal expenditures are growing at a fixed rate of four percent per annum, the real value expenditures are staying reasonably constant over the long term. I point out that prior to GWB, the fiscal expenditures were at a rate below that. With the coming of GWB, the expenditures started to exceed this rate, meaning the real value expenditures were increasing dramatically. As Obama entered office, they quickly fell to a long term sustainable level, with projections placing his next term below the target rate. That means real value reductions in the expenditures and a return to a responsible fiscal policy. The trend in real value income is similarly unfavorable for GWB.

As the head of state at the time, the buck stops with GWB in his terms, and Obama in this term.

What part of that analysis do you disagree with?

IWYW,
— Aswad.

P.S.: I don't dispute that there have been challenges.
P.P.S.: The term liberal doesn't translate outside the USA.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: The manipulation capitalism uses to keep us all in ... - 8/31/2012 3:33:31 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
That was uncalled for.
Allow me to borrow a phrase from VAA's tagline: "The buck stops here."
I will say without reservation that the head of state should always hold himself to that standard, and should always be held to it by his people.
Adjusting for economic growth is a necessary part of even the most superficial analysis of economics. If the fiscal expenditures are growing at a fixed rate of four percent per annum, the real value expenditures are staying reasonably constant over the long term. I point out that prior to GWB, the fiscal expenditures were at a rate below that. With the coming of GWB, the expenditures started to exceed this rate, meaning the real value expenditures were increasing dramatically. As Obama entered office, they quickly fell to a long term sustainable level, with projections placing his next term below the target rate. That means real value reductions in the expenditures and a return to a responsible fiscal policy. The trend in real value income is similarly unfavorable for GWB.
As the head of state at the time, the buck stops with GWB in his terms, and Obama in this term.
What part of that analysis do you disagree with?
IWYW,
— Aswad.
P.S.: I don't dispute that there have been challenges.
P.P.S.: The term liberal doesn't translate outside the USA.


So, anything that happens on one President's watch ends up being his fault? I get that it's his (and I'm only using his because we haven't had a female President yet) responsibility to deal with, but is it his fault? What happened within 8 months of Bush's Presidency? The dot.com bubble burst and 9/11. Did he cause either? No. Did he have the responsibility to deal with them? Sure did.

Did Bush force loans to less than adequate borrowers? Did Bush force Fannie and Freddie to buy up shitty mortgages? Did Bush force the Federal Reserve to keep their loan rates essentially nil? Did Bush force SEC investigators to surf for porn on the job? He did none of those things. The President is not the only one in charge here. He's but one branch of government. It could very easily be pointed out that the Legislature was run by Democrats when the shit hit the fan, so it's there fault, too, right? Why isn't anyone griping about Pelosi, Reid, Dodd, Frank, et. al.?

And, I'm not up on all my governmental forms of other countries, so I tend to speak pretty much of US politics, where Liberal does translate.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: The manipulation capitalism uses to keep us all in ... - 8/31/2012 7:21:12 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
Lets not run off into fantasy land.   9/11 may or may not have been Ws fault. He may or may not have known. I don't care much for the conspiracy end of that one.

But when Saudis attack America, willfully and knowingly invading Iraq under false pretenses in some fucked up shell game equivalence ploy because he wanted to do that at the outset of his presidency and the lie presented itself instead of nuking saudi arabia would be Ws fault. 

Lets face it, war is a good economy for awhile, lots of jobs, lots of overtime, but it doesnt last cuz wars end, shortages occur (cuz it aint recycleable and reuseable) and bills come due and you spend your national treasure, and it unravels.

Happened to Hitler, happened to Rome, happened to W, happened to LBJ, happened to the Louies, happened to England....and so on.



_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: The manipulation capitalism uses to keep us all in ... - 8/31/2012 12:13:48 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Lets not run off into fantasy land.   9/11 may or may not have been Ws fault. He may or may not have known. I don't care much for the conspiracy end of that one.
But when Saudis attack America, willfully and knowingly invading Iraq under false pretenses in some fucked up shell game equivalence ploy because he wanted to do that at the outset of his presidency and the lie presented itself instead of nuking saudi arabia would be Ws fault. 
Lets face it, war is a good economy for awhile, lots of jobs, lots of overtime, but it doesnt last cuz wars end, shortages occur (cuz it aint recycleable and reuseable) and bills come due and you spend your national treasure, and it unravels.
Happened to Hitler, happened to Rome, happened to W, happened to LBJ, happened to the Louies, happened to England....and so on.


So, you're claiming that al Qaeda is a Saudi thing? I know bin Laden was a Saudi, but it wasn't a Saudi group, was it? Weren't they in Afghanistan (which is why we went into Afghanistan)? If we were to decide to decimate Hamas, would we go into Iran, or would we go into the Gaza Strip?

And, had we allowed our men and women in uniform to fight the way they were trained to fight, we'd be out of the Middle East by now. Easily.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: The manipulation capitalism uses to keep us all in ... - 8/31/2012 12:30:27 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
No, are you claiming that al-Queda is another name for Iraq?

I didn't say a goddamn thing about Reagan's al-Queda, the 9/11 (which was the deal) guys were nearly to a man saudis and it was not entirely coincidental. 

Try not to do that find some disparaging impugnment of  what I am saying cuz I can always do one better.  

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: The manipulation capitalism uses to keep us all in ... - 8/31/2012 5:12:18 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

So, anything that happens on one President's watch ends up being his fault?


No, but the manner in which he deals with it is all him.

quote:

I'm only using his because we haven't had a female President yet


We've had a female Prime Minister, so don't read anything into my use of the term "his", which is a generic pronoun (and, as you say, you haven't had many women in government positions yet, let alone as a president).

quote:

What happened within 8 months of Bush's Presidency? The dot.com bubble burst and 9/11. Did he cause either? No. Did he have the responsibility to deal with them? Sure did.


You betcha he had that responsibility, and he didn't deal with it.

In all fairness, his predecessors could have left him with less trouble by not allowing the dotcom bubble to build, and not making a well funded, well trained and well organized terrorist group in the middle east. Still, every president has a lot of legacy issues to deal with, and most presidents seem to have dealt better with theirs.

quote:

Did Bush force loans to less than adequate borrowers? Did Bush force Fannie and Freddie to buy up shitty mortgages? Did Bush force the Federal Reserve to keep their loan rates essentially nil?


He was responsible for keeping an eye on the situation, and instituting adequate policies to deal with it. He did neither.

quote:

Why isn't anyone griping about Pelosi, Reid, Dodd, Frank, et. al.?


Because the buck stops with the head of state, who is responsible for taking the necessary steps to ensure proper government of the state, and who must necessarily step down from that position if there is no way for him to enforce conditions that he can stand for. Simple as that. He chose to hold on to the reins, which means owning the situation and claiming responsibility.

Am I the only one that sees leadership in those terms?

If I take on a project, I'm responsible for my role as project leader, which means I am ultimately responsible for every man and woman on the project, and that if I am ever unable to keep the project on course or unable to remain responsible for it all in good conscience then I must step down. When that happens, either people see the problem and correct it so I can continue, or there's someone else willing to step up to put their neck on the chopping block. I've no issue with saying there's mitigating circumstances if they fail to deliver, but I'm not about to tell the headsman to back off, either. That's what leadership comes down to, for me: you get the job done, doing right by your people in the process, or you acknowledge that you can't continue to lead.

Maybe I'm just crazy that way, I dunno.

quote:

And, I'm not up on all my governmental forms of other countries, so I tend to speak pretty much of US politics, where Liberal does translate.


I'm aware of- at least loosely- what the term means in the USA. It has a different meaning which holds everywhere else. When you're replying on an international forum to someone not from the USA, it is probably helpful to keep all namecalling to something that actually constitutes an insult elsewhere, or- better yet- something that conveys what you're calling the person you are insulting. Shouldn't take much of an effort, and you would be improving your communication and awareness of the world around you in the process.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: The manipulation capitalism uses to keep us all in ... - 8/31/2012 5:22:28 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

So, you're claiming that al Qaeda is a Saudi thing? I know bin Laden was a Saudi, but it wasn't a Saudi group, was it? Weren't they in Afghanistan (which is why we went into Afghanistan)? If we were to decide to decimate Hamas, would we go into Iran, or would we go into the Gaza Strip?

And, had we allowed our men and women in uniform to fight the way they were trained to fight, we'd be out of the Middle East by now. Easily.


AQ definitely is a "Saudi thing" much of the funding comes from Saudi. All the fundimantalism comes from Saudi. Almost every one of the 9/11 attackers came from.......... Yep you got it now...Saudi.

As for 9/11 itself, there was no evidence Iraq had any involvement, so why the invasion using bogus WMD`s and bogus involvement in 9/11 as an excuse..

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 20
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