mnottertail
Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004 Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri The US National Debt would still be climbing without the Bush tax cuts. Obama's budgets are $1T+ every year, yet the Bush tax cuts are $2.5T/decade. Additionally, the Bush tax cuts on "the rich" account for $800B over that decade. Theoretically, if we apply these cuts over 12 years, the National Debt wouldn't be $16T, but $13T. Better, but, not much. The problem wasn't the tax cuts. The problem with the jobs wasn't that they were low paying, it's that they disappeared when the recession hit. Liberals bitch and moan all the time about low-paying jobs and then bitch and moan about outsourcing of low-paying jobs. Which is it? Bush spent too damn much. Obama is spending too damn much. Had we kept spending in line with Clinton's highest spending year, we'd be in a surplus now. Big surplus. We didn't do that. Bush cut tax rates (which isn't a problem in and of themselves). The top brackets have a larger share of the income tax load compared to the Clinton years. The percentage of people paying no Federal income taxes is higher after the Bush tax cuts compared to Clinton's Administration (and, that started before the recession). Got to omb.gov and search out the historical budget spreadsheet. You'll see that the combined on-budget/off-budget tax revenues are higher now than under Clinton. May even be at their highest ever right now. But, spending increases have outpaced revenue increases. http://www.costofwar.com The cost of the wars since 2001: $1.37T Add in the $3T estimated cost of 12 years of Bush tax cuts (which is high) and we're sitting at $4.37T. National Debt 09/30/2010 $13.56T 09/30/2009 $11.9T 09/30/2008 $10.0T 09/30/2007 $9.0T 09/30/2006 $8.5T 09/30/2005 $7.9T 09/30/2004 $7.4T 09/30/2003 $6.7T 09/30/2002 $6.2T 09/30/2001 $5.8T 09/30/2000 $5.67T According to that site, Bush's budget year deficits (from 9/2001 to 9/2009;l even though Bush did impact spending in 2001, and Obama did impact spending in 2009) increased the National Debt by $6.1T (still more than the $4.37T from 12 years of tax cuts and 11 years of war). Obama, using your $16T (it's close, but I think it's still about $15.8T currently) increased the National Debt $4.1T ($3.9T by my closer guesstimation), which is still larger than 12 years of Bush tax cuts and 11 years of war. Fuck it. I'm going to go all the way through this thing now. OMB.gov Historical Tables Total Budget Details (#'s in thousands) Year Revenues Spending Net 1992 1,091,208 1,381,529 -290,321 1993 1,154,335 1,409,386 -255,051 1994 1,258,566 1,461,753 -203,186 1995 1,351,790 1,515,742 -163,952 1996 1,453,053 1,560,484 -107,431 1997 1,579,232 1,601,116 -21,884 1998 1,721,728 1,652,458 69,270 1999 1,827,452 1,701,842 125,610 2000 2,025,191 1,788,950 236,241 2001 1,991,082 1,862,846 128,236 2002 1,853,136 2,010,894 -157,758 2003 1,782,314 2,159,899 -377,585 2004 1,880,114 2,292,841 -412,727 2005 2,153,611 2,471,957 -318,346 2006 2,406,869 2,655,050 -248,181 2007 2,567,985 2,728,686 -160,701 2008 2,523,991 2,982,544 -458,553 2009 2,104,989 3,517,677 -1,412,688 2010 2,162,724 3,456,213 -1,293,489 2011 2,303,466 3,603,061 -1,299,595 2012 (est) 2,468,599 3,795,547 -1,326,948 2013 (est) 2,901,956 3,803,364 -901,408 2014 (est) 3,215,293 3,883,095 -667,802 2015 (est) 3,450,153 4,059,866 -609,713 2016 (est) 3,680,085 4,328,840 -648,755 2017 (est) 3,919,275 4,531,723 -612,448 Current estimations are that the 2012 net is going to come in at $1.1T, not the $1.3T estimated in the table. Clinton's largest revenue? 2000 @ $2.025T Obama's smallest revenue? 2010 @ $2.162T Obama's largest revenue? 2012 @ $2.468T It's all about the spending. Bush's 8 years (2002-2009) had total revenues of $17.273T ($2.159T average) and spending of $20.820T ($2.602T average). As an average, revenues increased under Bush $134B over Clinton's best revenue year, but also increased spending from Clinton's worst year (2001) by $740B. Obama's lowest spending year (including the 4 years he'd have if elected) is 2010 (his first year) @ $3.456T. The problem in the US is Corporatism, aka Crony Capitalism. It isn't truly Capitalism. The Federal Government is in bed with Wall Street. This is as true for Obama as it was for Bush. How many Goldman-Sach's executives have been nominated, hired, or appointed by Bush and Obama? Shit loads. Instead of holding the Administrations accountable, we're having our focus diverted to manufactured racism and demonizing of wealth. So if we cut spending by about 75% we will hold the debt to what it is today (so long as we dont change anything ever) and we will still be left with the interest on that debt spiraling up every day, so we dont pay down the debt or any interest slash spending by 75% and we are still increasing the debt. There are about 6 different tax cuts coming undone in the perfect storm long about december to early next year, some of what isnt being taken into consideration here either. However it is interesting to note with all the taxes that are lowered on all the people the revenues are actually up, and that we must have a hell of a thriving economy, hah? The cost of the Iraq war is much higher, since most of it is actually off book as emergency appropriations and coming due every day which is making the near term numbers look worse, and since we dont have an actual budget, and we are operating on a budget from 2009 or so, there are alot of appropriations bills coming out of congress which is the off book spending . In there is also (a difference between debt and deficit) the old USPS in debt numbers but not in deficit or budget numbers since it is off book. And will magically appear at accounting time as debt. So, cutting tax rates is a problem in and of themselves. Since we are robbing from future payments in medicare and social security even now by those tax cuts. As has been pointed out repeatedly, nominal tax rates and actual tax rates are apples and rabbit turds by comparison. I have some issues with the cbo and even government accounting since it is made up of at least 345 accounting systems but it is as ballpark as is saying east about 5 miles. Spending problems? Assuredly. Taxing problems? Assuredly.
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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30
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