RE: FOX News: Ryan "blatant lies" (Full Version)

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graceadieu -> RE: FOX News: Ryan "blatant lies" (8/31/2012 10:15:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

Fact: While Ryan tried to pin the downgrade of the United States’ credit rating on spending under President Obama, the credit rating was actually downgraded because Republicans threatened not to raise the debt ceiling.


Not tue.

Fact: The credit rating was downgraded because we were required to reduce our debt, not increase it. How does anyone get a better credit rating by increasing their debt even more than they can afford now?


As I consistently pay off my debts, my bank increased my credit limit over and over and over again. I can now take out 6x as much money as I could 10 years ago.

The government does have a lot of debt, but it's not static - they're constantly borrowing money and responsibly paying it back. The Republicans tried to force the government stop paying back the money it owes. That's why our national credit rating dropped.

(ETA: I know the total amount of debt is static or increasing. I meant that the government borrows money by selling treasury bonds, and then selling new ones once they'd paid back the old ones. Kind of like paying off one loan with the another, I guess, but until this whole business with the debt ceiling stand-off, US treasury bonds were basically the most secure investment in the world because the government was so reliable about paying them off on time.)

quote:

Of course they cannot. The debt ceiling could only be raised if we produced a plan to reduce spending also and Obama and the Senate had no will to do that and refused to do so. This was the other side of the equation and simply encreasing the debt celling would not save our credit rating. Again, how would raising our already ginormous debt save our credt rating? It would not.


The Democrats offered lots of concessions and are very interested in cutting spending. The problem is that you can't balance the budget on only spending cuts unless you basically destroy the US military, and so they wanted to also have some small revenue increases to make it work. Unfortunately, a lot of Republicans aren't willing to raise taxes by one cent, and so they blocked it.

quote:

I don't plan on spending anymore time on the rest of the "facts" since it is clearly not needed.


Not spending time on "facts" seems like a popular Republican position these days.




graceadieu -> RE: FOX News: Ryan "blatant lies" (8/31/2012 10:17:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

Fact: While Ryan tried to pin the downgrade of the United States’ credit rating on spending under President Obama, the credit rating was actually downgraded because Republicans threatened not to raise the debt ceiling.


Not tue.

Fact: The credit rating was downgraded because we were required to reduce our debt, not increase it. How does anyone get a better credit rating by increasing their debt even more than they can afford now?

Of course they cannot. The debt ceiling could only be raised if we produced a plan to reduce spending also and Obama and the Senate had no will to do that and refused to do so. This was the other side of the equation and simply encreasing the debt celling would not save our credit rating. Again, how would raising our already ginormous debt save our credt rating? It would not.

I don't plan on spending anymore time on the rest of the "facts" since it is clearly not needed. They, like this statement, are all half true which means they are not true.



Then explain all the other times the debt ceiling had been raised without reducing the debt or plans to reduce it and this is the first time in our history that our credit has taken a hit.




Yep, they raised it, what was it - 6 times, I think - while Bush was president?




Musicmystery -> RE: FOX News: Ryan "blatant lies" (8/31/2012 10:23:47 AM)

One key problem is Americans not recognizing that the rising interest on the debt is costing them more than a tax increase.




mnottertail -> RE: FOX News: Ryan "blatant lies" (8/31/2012 10:25:51 AM)

Yeah, paying interest on interest payments and never getting to the principal is riding a bobsled straight to fucking hell.




isoLadyOwner -> RE: FOX News: Ryan "blatant lies" (8/31/2012 10:27:35 AM)

Obama's parrots seem to have omitted an opinion piece (also from the Washington Post) pointing out that the Obama ideologues have been lying up a storm about Ryan's speech:

Ryan freaks out Obamaland

By Jennifer Rubin

The Democrats are losing it, literally. The Obama camp and its surrogates are losing the fight to control the narrative about Mitt Romney and Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) They are losing the effort to distract voters through the presence at the GOP convention of Obama campaign staffers such as Robert Gibbs and Ben LaBolt, who spend their time wandering about and whining to the media here in Tampa about the “negativity” of the other side. They are losing the ability to con the media into focusing on likability, as if perceptions of Romney and Ryan wouldn’t improve after this event.

That spilled over last night in a group outburst from Romney-Ryan critics over Paul Ryan’s speech. Needless to say, the speech was a ringing success with delegates and in much of the mainstream media. Ryan bloodied President Obama with blow after blow, all the while appearing cheery and sincere. The crowd loved it. So nearly en masse the left decided that Ryan “lied.”

For starters, that is the ultimate compliment. It is in effect saying the speech worked so well and was received so well that the only thing to say is that it was a con job.

But the “lies” turn out not to be lies at all. They are not even misrepresentations or exaggerations.

Take Ryan’s criticism of Obama’s ignoring Simpson-Bowles. This is a fact. That Ryan voted for it and then put together the only comprehensive budget using some elements of Simpson-Bowles (a premium-support Medicare plan, block-granting Medicaid) doesn’t make his remarks about Obama a lie. A true statement — Obama ignored Simpson-Bowles — is not a lie because there is another true statement — Ryan voted no and came up with his own plan. This is a standard of “lying” that has never been applied to the president, by the way.

Then there is the “lie” that Obama took $716 billion out of Medicare. That is also a fact. That Ryan, who has now signed onto Romney’s plan which puts the money back, previously took those cuts to put back into the Medicare trust fund does not make the statement false. Obama can defend the cuts and say it wasn’t so bad or say that sticking the money into Obamacare was justified, but Ryan did relate what Obama did.

Then there is the accusation that Ryan “lied” about the Janesville GM plant. Let’s recall exactly what he said: “‘I believe that if our government is there to support you … this plant will be here for another hundred years.’ That’s what [Obama] said in 2008. Well, as it turned out, that plant didn’t last another year. It is locked up and empty to this day. And that’s how it is in so many towns today, where the recovery that was promised is nowhere in sight.” Ryan quoted Obama accurately.

Ryan never said the plant was closed by Obama; he said Obama promised to revive the plant and couldn’t deliver. That is a fact, not a ”lie.” Well, it’s not a lie by Ryan; and I’ll not call Obama’s promise to keep the plant open a “lie.” Obama just didn’t deliver. The Romney-Ryan campaign points to a story in the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel verifying that a decision was made in 2011, well after Obama’s Janesville appearance, to keep the plant on standby. (“Since they were shut down in 2009, both the Janesville and Tennessee plants have been on standby status, meaning they were not producing vehicles, but they were not completely shut down.”)

The stings on these issues cut so deeply that I suppose that the Obama team and its media allies are crazed to turn facts into lies and aspirations into distortions. Take Ryan’s statement that he’ll keep GDP below 20 percent. What Ryan critics say is “misleading” is in fact a policy difference. Ryan’s budget does bring spending to about 20 percent of GDP, with an increase in defense spending. It’s fine to say that’s a bad choice; but it’s not misleading.

It is likewise not misleading to say: “None of us have to settle for the best this administration offers — a dull, adventureless journey from one entitlement to the next, a government-planned life, a country where everything is free but us.” That is an accurate description of Obama’s own “Life of Julia” Web site, which depicted exactly that. If anyone blew it, it was the Obama team in putting out a caricature of the liberal welfare state.

I understand the frustration of Obama’s camp and its supporters. Moreover, I think much of the media accusations were offered in haste in an effort to get out the instant reaction without the media doing their full homework. It is a revealing moment, for the press and the Obama camp. For members of the Obama team, it means they are losing the race, and they know it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/post/ryan-freaks-out-obamaland/2012/08/30/be97852e-f2ac-11e1-adc6-87dfa8eff430_blog.html







graceadieu -> RE: FOX News: Ryan "blatant lies" (8/31/2012 10:31:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

One key problem is Americans not recognizing that the rising interest on the debt is costing them more than a tax increase.


Yeah, this attitude that debt doesn't matter is kind of a problem.

I suppose one of the reasons I vote Democrat is because at least they're willing to raise taxes to pay for the stuff they want to do. The Republicans want to cut taxes and increase spending, and somehow think a miracle will happen and the debt will pay itself back.




Restyles -> RE: FOX News: Ryan "blatant lies" (8/31/2012 10:40:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

Fact: While Ryan tried to pin the downgrade of the United States’ credit rating on spending under President Obama, the credit rating was actually downgraded because Republicans threatened not to raise the debt ceiling.


Not tue.

Fact: The credit rating was downgraded because we were required to reduce our debt, not increase it. How does anyone get a better credit rating by increasing their debt even more than they can afford now?

Of course they cannot. The debt ceiling could only be raised if we produced a plan to reduce spending also and Obama and the Senate had no will to do that and refused to do so. This was the other side of the equation and simply encreasing the debt celling would not save our credit rating. Again, how would raising our already ginormous debt save our credt rating? It would not.

I don't plan on spending anymore time on the rest of the "facts" since it is clearly not needed. They, like this statement, are all half true which means they are not true.



Then explain all the other times the debt ceiling had been raised without reducing the debt or plans to reduce it and this is the first time in our history that our credit has taken a hit.




Yep, they raised it, what was it - 6 times, I think - while Bush was president?


Yes, and raising it was unpatriotic and tantamount to treason...according to Obama.




Restyles -> RE: FOX News: Ryan "blatant lies" (8/31/2012 10:43:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


Republicans want to cut taxes and increase spending,


No, they dont. Pay attention to something other than HuffPo and MoveOn, you might learn something.




Musicmystery -> RE: FOX News: Ryan "blatant lies" (8/31/2012 10:44:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Restyles


quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


Republicans want to cut taxes and increase spending,


No, they dont. Pay attention to something other than HuffPo and MoveOn, you might learn something.

Yes, they do. Pay attention to basic mathematics.




cloudboy -> RE: FOX News: Ryan "blatant lies" (8/31/2012 10:51:39 AM)


USA Today had an article that 63% of Americans cannot name one (1) Supreme Court Justice.

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/two-thirds_of_americans_cant_name_a_single_u.s._supreme_court_justice_surve/





Restyles -> RE: FOX News: Ryan "blatant lies" (8/31/2012 10:52:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Restyles


quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


Republicans want to cut taxes and increase spending,


No, they dont. Pay attention to something other than HuffPo and MoveOn, you might learn something.

Yes, they do. Pay attention to basic mathematics.


I do. I also understand tax policy, both Dem and GOP, and the Dems are the ones who want to raise taxes and raise spending, a recipe for disaster. There is nothing in the GOP platform about reducing taxes or increasing long term spending. Another one who needs to pay attention.




Restyles -> RE: FOX News: Ryan "blatant lies" (8/31/2012 10:53:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


USA Today had an article that 63% of Americans cannot name one (1) Supreme Court Justice.

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/two-thirds_of_americans_cant_name_a_single_u.s._supreme_court_justice_surve/




And one of them is Joe Biden. Loved Clint's skewering of the moron.




FatDomDaddy -> RE: FOX News: Ryan "blatant lies" (8/31/2012 10:55:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

You'll note I included the Washington Post as well.

Y'all are so funny. You invent the "rules" and shift "positions" hourly as you squirm to convince yourself, like kids faking a game at recess.

In this case, the point is, that even the Right recognizes Ryan delivered a load of crap, and this journalist recognizes that's a problem for the candidates, not an effective approach, for the reasons outlined.



No it doesn't... FOX has varied opinions and she was not a journalist but a commentator.




tazzygirl -> RE: FOX News: Ryan "blatant lies" (8/31/2012 11:42:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Restyles


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Restyles


quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


Republicans want to cut taxes and increase spending,


No, they dont. Pay attention to something other than HuffPo and MoveOn, you might learn something.

Yes, they do. Pay attention to basic mathematics.


I do. I also understand tax policy, both Dem and GOP, and the Dems are the ones who want to raise taxes and raise spending, a recipe for disaster. There is nothing in the GOP platform about reducing taxes or increasing long term spending. Another one who needs to pay attention.




May want to talk to Mitt about his plan...

MITT'S PLAN
Reducing and stabilizing federal spending is essential, but breathing life into the present anemic recovery will also require fixing the nation’s tax code to focus on jobs and growth. To repair the nation’s tax code, marginal rates must be brought down to stimulate entrepreneurship, job creation, and investment, while still raising the revenue needed to fund a smaller, smarter, simpler government. The principle of fairness must be preserved in federal tax and spending policy.

Individual Taxes

America’s individual tax code applies relatively high marginal tax rates on a narrow tax base. Those high rates discourage work and entrepreneurship, as well as savings and investment. With 54 percent of private sector workers employed outside of corporations, individual rates also define the incentives for job-creating businesses. Lower marginal tax rates secure for all Americans the economic gains from tax reform.

Make permanent, across-the-board 20 percent cut in marginal rates
Maintain current tax rates on interest, dividends, and capital gains
Eliminate taxes for taxpayers with AGI below $200,000 on interest, dividends, and capital gains
Eliminate the Death Tax
Repeal the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT)
Corporate Taxes

The U.S. economy’s 35 percent corporate tax rate is among the highest in the industrial world, reducing the ability of our nation’s businesses to compete in the global economy and to invest and create jobs at home. By limiting investment and growth, the high rate of corporate tax also hurts U.S. wages.

Cut the corporate rate to 25 percent
Strengthen and make permanent the R&D tax credit
Switch to a territorial tax system
Repeal the corporate Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT)

http://www.mittromney.com/issues/tax




graceadieu -> RE: FOX News: Ryan "blatant lies" (8/31/2012 12:51:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Restyles


quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


Republicans want to cut taxes and increase spending,


No, they dont. Pay attention to something other than HuffPo and MoveOn, you might learn something.


Yeah, they do. How is cutting taxes for the wealthy and raising defense spending not cutting taxes and raising spending?

Okay, sure, not EVERY Republican wants this. Some have sensible ideas. But Reagan and Bush Jr did, which is a huge part of why we're in such debt to begin with, and Romney and Ryan do too.

(ETA: And I don't ever read either HuffPo or MoveOn or anything like that - maybe you just need to stop watching Fox?)




graceadieu -> RE: FOX News: Ryan "blatant lies" (8/31/2012 1:05:10 PM)

Oh, and don't forget:

quote:

President Obama has repeatedly sought to slash funds for our fighting men and women, and over the next ten years nearly $1 trillion will be cut from the core defense budget. This budget cutting enterprise is proceeding while American troops are in combat in Afghanistan, returning from their mission in Iraq, and fighting the remnants of al Qaeda worldwide....

Mitt will begin by reversing Obama-era defense cuts and return to the budget baseline established by Secretary Robert Gates in 2010, with the goal of setting core defense spending — meaning funds devoted to the fundamental military components of personnel, operations and maintenance, procurement, and research and development — at a floor of 4 percent of GDP.


(Source: http://www.mittromney.com/issues/national-defense)

So Romney acknowledges that Obama is cutting military spending down by $100 billion/year, saving the country a huge amount of money, but wants to reverse it and increase military spending, despite us not being in Iraq anymore and not being in Afghanistan much longer.

I guess having the same military budget as the next 17 countries combined just isn't enough to ensure that we can defend ourselves from some third-world dictator?




Musicmystery -> RE: FOX News: Ryan "blatant lies" (8/31/2012 8:42:53 PM)

quote:

There is nothing in the GOP platform about reducing taxes or increasing long term spending. Another one who needs to pay attention.


You do indeed need to pay attention. Mitt wants to dramatically increase military spending. And he wants to cut taxes. They are his main two priorities. They are practically the only things he's offered that he WILL do, other than whine he'll undo ACA on day one (which can't really be done).

If you're gonna vote for the guy, at least listen to him.





BoundSlave4Life -> RE: FOX News: Ryan "blatant lies" (8/31/2012 8:54:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

1, The OPINION PIECE you posted was written by a liberal activist, so there's no point in disputing her "facts". It's a hatchet opinion piece, nothing more.
2, Ryan never said that Obama caused the GM plant to close, he quoted Obama when Obama said government would be there for them. Since the government wasn't there for them, and the plant closed... How exactly is what Ryan said a lie?
3, How exactly is what Ryan said about the stimulus a lie? Didn't the banks, and UAW er GM & Chrysler get the majority of the stimulus funds?

Continue to post attacks on Ryan & Romney, it's the only hope your side has left.

The fear is delicious...


I don't know about 1 and 3 BUT Ryan said that "Obama Promised to keep that GM plant in business, but less than a year after Obama was in office, the plant closed down"
Obama promised nothing of the sort. Obama said that we "Should" keep that plant going. The plant DID get closed, but Obama wasn't even in office yet when it occurred. It's very possible that it was just an accurate statement that he didn't know was a blatant lie (Which I would like to believe), or he was lying to... as your post said... stir up "Fear" and anger.

Those aren't opinions. Those are simple FACTS.




subrob1967 -> RE: FOX News: Ryan "blatant lies" (8/31/2012 9:40:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BoundSlave4Life


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

1, The OPINION PIECE you posted was written by a liberal activist, so there's no point in disputing her "facts". It's a hatchet opinion piece, nothing more.
2, Ryan never said that Obama caused the GM plant to close, he quoted Obama when Obama said government would be there for them. Since the government wasn't there for them, and the plant closed... How exactly is what Ryan said a lie?
3, How exactly is what Ryan said about the stimulus a lie? Didn't the banks, and UAW er GM & Chrysler get the majority of the stimulus funds?

Continue to post attacks on Ryan & Romney, it's the only hope your side has left.

The fear is delicious...


I don't know about 1 and 3 BUT Ryan said that "Obama Promised to keep that GM plant in business, but less than a year after Obama was in office, the plant closed down"
Obama promised nothing of the sort. Obama said that we "Should" keep that plant going. The plant DID get closed, but Obama wasn't even in office yet when it occurred. It's very possible that it was just an accurate statement that he didn't know was a blatant lie (Which I would like to believe), or he was lying to... as your post said... stir up "Fear" and anger.

Those aren't opinions. Those are simple FACTS.


Show us, give us a link to the speech... Gotta prove something you call a fact around here.




Musicmystery -> RE: FOX News: Ryan "blatant lies" (8/31/2012 9:42:56 PM)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/29/paul-ryan-speech-text_n_1829354.html?utm_hp_ref=elections-2012




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