RE: The end of 'Pax Americana' ....?

RE: The end of 'Pax Americana' ....? (Full Version)

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vincentML -> RE: The end of 'Pax Americana' ....? (9/1/2012 11:25:06 AM)
quote: (which doesn't matter as much to us, since we're filthy rich). Excuse me. That's not possible, since you are a socialist country of sorts. [8\|]

Aswad -> RE: The end of 'Pax Americana' ....? (9/1/2012 1:12:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Excuse me. That's not possible, since you are a socialist country of sorts. [8\|] Not "of sorts"... see, China is a socialist country "of sorts", while Norway is the wet dream of Communism adjusted to fit reality. Fortunately, we're wealthy in spite of that, much of which is due to universal health care, rehabilitative prisons and a strong welfare system, none of which are socialist vices (the socialist parties are least interested in having any, get dragged kicking and screaming into it by the non-socialist parties, then claim credit for the success afterwards). And, of course, the will of producers to persevere and help each other out in the face of the difficulties imposed by socialism and incompetence, normally an unbeatable combo. As a matter of security, if worse comes to worst, we have the Government Pension Fund of Norway to help out, owning about one percent of the GWP (gross world product). Confusing socialism as a doctrine with social policies is a common mistake, especially in the USA (and here, for that matter). Fiscal concerns favor social policies, but not socialist doctrine. If the USA could learn from that, it might not have a lower GDP per capita than a communist country like Norway, which after all has fewer natural resources, fewer people to generate wealth, greater beurocracy, inferior management, less ambitious citizens and a culture that favors being small, humble and subservient in everything while being conformist followers and avoiding both innovation and investment as a rule. Don'tcha just hate pissing away all that potential? [;)] IWYW, — Aswad.

vincentML -> RE: The end of 'Pax Americana' ....? (9/1/2012 3:00:16 PM)
quote: Not "of sorts"... see, China is a socialist country "of sorts", while Norway is the wet dream of Communism adjusted to fit reality. [:D]

tweakabelle -> RE: The end of 'Pax Americana' ....? (9/1/2012 9:48:56 PM)
My reading of the OP was that the author proposed abandoning the military response to terrorism. He argued that the current strategy created more terrorists than it eliminated and that a civilian response focusing on police and specialist security agencies acting co-operatively across borders would be more effective. This entails a complete re-thinking of the 'War on Terror', which was seen as a knee jerk response to 9/11. Several European nations have found this approach delivered successful outcomes against local terror groups. The results of the 'War on Terror' to date have been ambiguous to say the least. Is it possible to point to a complete success anywhere? Is the "War on Terror' going the same way as the 'War on Drugs'? Do posters feel this is the way to go?

FMRFGOPGAL -> RE: The end of 'Pax Americana' ....? (9/1/2012 10:00:05 PM)
I've read this "article" (the thread's author used "paper" implying more perhaps because it has footnotes). In any case the article is entirely presumptive and relies upon the reader agreeing to the premise that there is a fixed formula for all societal decline. There isn't.

tj444 -> RE: The end of 'Pax Americana' ....? (9/2/2012 12:05:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle My reading of the OP was that the author proposed abandoning the military response to terrorism. He argued that the current strategy created more terrorists than it eliminated and that a civilian response focusing on police and specialist security agencies acting co-operatively across borders would be more effective. This entails a complete re-thinking of the 'War on Terror', which was seen as a knee jerk response to 9/11. Several European nations have found this approach delivered successful outcomes against local terror groups. The results of the 'War on Terror' to date have been ambiguous to say the least. Is it possible to point to a complete success anywhere? Is the "War on Terror' going the same way as the 'War on Drugs'? Do posters feel this is the way to go? Imo, its too late, terrorism was caused when the US was mucking about back with the Shah of Iran, the US created enemies with that whole fiasco.. And the US wants to be in control, they are the ones that have come up with the requirements and restrictions for air travel, crossing borders, etc.. they have dictated to other nations how it must be done.. I think it would be very difficult or impossible to change the US way of doing things.. both because the US cant see any other way but theirs and also cuz the US is the major target of terrorism and hated by terrorists much more than other countries.. The US has clung so tight to their war on drugs & war on terrorism that i dont see it changing ever.. not in our lifetime at any rate.. eta- and of course, OBL's goal was to cause massive financial costs to the US in their effort to defend against terrorism and that is what has happened.. he wanted to bring down the US any way he could.. The US has not been brought down but its cost a heck of a lot of money that should have gone elsewhere and to benefit taxpayers..

DesideriScuri -> RE: The end of 'Pax Americana' ....? (9/2/2012 3:32:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 Imo, its too late, terrorism was caused when the US was mucking about back with the Shah of Iran, the US created enemies with that whole fiasco.. And the US wants to be in control, they are the ones that have come up with the requirements and restrictions for air travel, crossing borders, etc.. they have dictated to other nations how it must be done.. I think it would be very difficult or impossible to change the US way of doing things.. both because the US cant see any other way but theirs and also cuz the US is the major target of terrorism and hated by terrorists much more than other countries.. It's not too late. Was it too late "when the German's bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!" Joking aside, it's not too late. We can pull through and right the ship, if we get people in office who want to right the ship. quote: The US has clung so tight to their war on drugs & war on terrorism that i dont see it changing ever.. not in our lifetime at any rate.. Probably not a complete change in our lifetime, but I do believe we'll see the turn-around. I can see the War on Terrorism ending before the War on Drugs, but they will both eventually end. We have dumped so much money into staunching the flow of drugs into this country and in PSA's to quell drug use. And, what has that gotten us? Not a whole fucking lot, unfortunately. I'm a firm supporter of legalizing all drugs and stiffening the penalties for "intoxicated" crimes, or crimes committed in "altered states." Tax consumption of the currently illegal drugs and let Nature take its course. Self-removal from the gene pool will happen, and drug kingpins will lose their power. quote: eta- and of course, OBL's goal was to cause massive financial costs to the US in their effort to defend against terrorism and that is what has happened.. he wanted to bring down the US any way he could.. The US has not been brought down but its cost a heck of a lot of money that should have gone elsewhere and to benefit taxpayers.. Actually, I believe that it should never have been taken from the taxpayer, where it would be used to benefit the earner in whatever way he/she saw fit. Could you imagine the outcry if Bush would have gone on TV, taking control of every station in the US, to announce to OBL and al Qaeda, (in my best Paulie from the Rocky franchise) "We don't sweat you."

vincentML -> RE: The end of 'Pax Americana' ....? (9/2/2012 5:59:09 AM)
quote: Fortunately, we're wealthy in spite of that, much of which is due to universal health care, rehabilitative prisons and a strong welfare system, none of which are socialist vices (the socialist parties are least interested in having any, get dragged kicking and screaming into it by the non-socialist parties, then claim credit for the success afterwards). And, of course, the will of producers to persevere and help each other out in the face of the difficulties imposed by socialism and incompetence, normally an unbeatable combo. As a matter of security, if worse comes to worst, we have the Government Pension Fund of Norway to help out, owning about one percent of the GWP (gross world product). But is there trouble looming in your social paradise? Is your confidence a sign of a bubble about to burst? Norway's oil pay bonanza a ticking time bomb

Aswad -> RE: The end of 'Pax Americana' ....? (9/2/2012 6:05:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle My reading of the OP was that the author proposed abandoning the military response to terrorism. Either drop the military response and fix the problems instead, or make a new world record for the scope of a genocide. The former has all along been the suggestion of just about anyone concerned with cause and effect. So far, ten years and several trillion dollars is the cost. Seems cheaper to buy a generation worth of infrastructure, perhaps turn them into an experiment in large scale sustainable ecologies so we get some kickback on that. Hell, do these people even have radios and phones, except for the ones working for us? quote: Several European nations have found this approach delivered successful outcomes against local terror groups. This is because most European nations have been dealing successfully with terrorism longer than the USA has been around. We're more concerned with getting on with our lives than cracking skulls, I guess. Got tiring after a few centuries, maybe? quote: Do posters feel this is the way to go? If the goal has something to do with eliminating terrorism, then we should take a different approach. If the goal is to finish OBL's work of taking down the USA, then we should continue as before. That has been the general understanding since OBL first set these events in motion, no? I just wish we could make up our minds and be more efficient about one of these. IWYW, — Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: The end of 'Pax Americana' ....? (9/2/2012 7:07:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML But is there trouble looming in your social paradise? Hell, yes. I cut a whole page worth of that because it was off topic and ranty. quote: Is your confidence a sign of a bubble about to burst? What confidence? quote: Norway's oil pay bonanza a ticking time bomb Yeah, we're spoiled. As I said elsewhere, we couldn't be arsed to even show up for work at the kind of wages that pass for a middle class household income in the USA. And the unholy marriage between the Labor party and the labor unions has been a problem for the past decade or so, in ways too extensive to go into here. This is not news, and it's not limited to the oil sector, just a whole lot more visible there. You'll note that the oil sector is only a small fraction of the revenue stream here, though. Bear in mind that it's a question of infighting over wages. Every profession wants to keep its place or advance ahead of the rest of the pack. That's the nature of capitalism, and labor unions don't change it. They just shift it into a different arena. Because finances are a zero sum game with inflation as a neat trick to make the ride a bit more pleasant at the expense of a harder impact when we humans run out of production capacity. The problem up here in this regard is no more than a class struggle, with the oil sector near ready to seperate the middle class into upper and lower middle due to wage issues. Competitiveness is an issue everyone faces: as countries grow wealthier, labor becomes more expensive. Then you either have to import labor, or export jobs, or pull others up to weaken the competition. This is part of the nature of an inflationary economy on a global scale, a side effect of money having as much to do with the concept of money we're used to as the right wing "Christian" conservatives in the USA have to do with the values of Christianity, i.e. the name has been kept and essentially everything else has been swapped. New shit, old wrapping. And, continuing the analogy, people treat it like it's still the same thing as it used to be. We import people, which is a compromise between importing labor and pulling others up. Sadly, we emphasize source countries where they're not really a major contribution. We should be importing people from poor countries with healthy work habits, like the USA. Instead, we import too many people from dirt poor, war torn countries that turn out to be a net loss in a half century or so (going by the figures from the statistics and census bureau), like Somalia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq and so forth. Similarly, it would be beneficial for the USA to import more people from Mexico, although the main emphasis should be on social reforms to increase efficiency (e.g. universal health care, rehabilitative justice system, better welfare, decriminalization of prostitution and an end to the wars on terror and drugs). As for wages, my uncle had a wife in the oil industry. Her income was about $138.000 per year back in 2001, plus a house with no mortgage and ample savings. That puts her in the upper class in the USA by most reckonings, and the rich by other reckonings. Here, she was middle to upper middle class. About half that income would be reasonable for a cleaning lady out on the oil rigs, as you can't expect them to turn down their own beds and wash their own clothes. We have people for that. I could accomodate a maid five days a week on medical leave pay without sacrificing anything, and I'm lower class. (ETA: Median household income in the USA would just about cover my rent for a small 800ft² suburban apartment.) Realize that we get by just fine in spite of high wages, and that for every dollar made per person in the USA, seventy cents go to us up here in Norway, because of the difference in population size and the fact that this is how much of your economy we own. I get one cent out of every dollar you make, and one from each of 69 of your neighbours, without lifting a finger or pumping a drop of oil. And this figure is increasing faster than the index rate, meaning I'll have a higher share of your earnings in the future. Because we do things a bit differently around these parts, you're probably paying me to post here. Which is why I'm posting that you might want to consider doing things a bit differently yourselves. Cuz I haven't done anything to deserve being this much better off. IWYW, — Aswad.

Rule -> RE: The end of 'Pax Americana' ....? (9/2/2012 8:54:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri We can pull through and right the ship, if we get people in office who want to right the ship. Who gets into office is decided well before the elctions in one or another back room. And if al else fails, the votes are recounted and recounted and recounted until the result is what the back room wants. That is how Bush jr. got the presidency, not so? quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri We have dumped so much money into staunching the flow of drugs into this country and in PSA's to quell drug use. And, what has that gotten us? Not a whole fucking lot, unfortunately. There are two groups, roughly, of drugs traffickers: Group A is the righteous one. Group B are all kinds of criminals that compete with group A, causing the prices of drugs to lower and for group A to generate less revenue. The war on drugs is a war against group B exclusively and it serves to protect and maintain the monopoly on drug trafficking of group A.

vincentML -> RE: The end of 'Pax Americana' ....? (9/2/2012 11:26:23 AM)
It is difficult to buy your assessment that we are a poor country inasmuch as in 2011 the average per capita wealth in the U.S. was $184,000, roughly the average cost of a home. Furthermore, measuring wealth nation to nation is a tricky business. Additionally, your remark is a smear of the GOP's delusional picture of American Exceptionalism and a "Shining City on the Hill," so is not allowed. [:)] Your krone is only 17 cents per American dollar and as you report and the referenced article supports you are in an inflationary spiral. Eventually, the proceeds from your soverignty fund will diminish in value as the gap between currencies widens, don't you fear? I will admit it was wise of your nation to divert petrol dollars into a sovereignty fund and a pension fund, but how much longer can you compete with British North Sea oil? And what will happen if you vote to join the EU? When is that vote scheduled anyway? The view from afar suggests that Norway is in a bubble bursting process, but only an uneducated guess by me. However, the euphoria there is reminescent of what we experienced at the height of our housing bubble. One problem here, getting back to the OP, is the growing inequality of the distribution of wealth. Another is the crumbling of our infrastructure. Our international airports are not yet third world, but we are trying. I see this internal rot as a contribution to the end of Pax Americana.

vincentML -> RE: The end of 'Pax Americana' ....? (9/2/2012 11:38:10 AM)
quote: Who gets into office is decided well before the elctions in one or another back room. And if al else fails, the votes are recounted and recounted and recounted until the result is what the back room wants. That is how Bush jr. got the presidency, not so? The 1980 election was an outlyer and strikingly it was not Bush who instigated the recount process, but his opponent. In general there have been few instances of stolen elections here and your characterization of back room bosses is wide of the mark. Maybe the 1960 election of Kennedy was decided by vote rigging in Chicago. The 1876 election of Rutherford B Hayes was decided by deal making in the House of Representatives, and lead to the final withdrawal of Union troops from the South. But with 20 electoral votes in dispute resolution in the House was Constitutionally santioned.

Rule -> RE: The end of 'Pax Americana' ....? (9/2/2012 12:29:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML The 1980 election was an outlyer and strikingly it was not Bush who instigated the recount process, but his opponent. It was indeed Al Gore who requested a recount in 2000. I stand corrected. Thank you. You are as far as I recall the second person to catch me at an error since I have started posting on these forums. Well done!

Musicmystery -> RE: The end of 'Pax Americana' ....? (9/2/2012 3:43:04 PM)
quote: Your krone is only 17 cents per American dollar They were never designed to be at parity.

Musicmystery -> RE: The end of 'Pax Americana' ....? (9/2/2012 3:44:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML The 1980 election was an outlyer and strikingly it was not Bush who instigated the recount process, but his opponent. It was indeed Al Gore who requested a recount in 2000. I stand corrected. Thank you. You are as far as I recall the second person to catch me at an error since I have started posting on these forums. Well done! Right. It was Bush who requested the recount be STOPPED.

MrRodgers -> RE: The end of 'Pax Americana' ....? (9/2/2012 6:32:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle (such as the Wars on Drugs What do other posters think? I think that there would be no "war on drugs" if people stopped using drugs. There would be no war on drugs if we took them out of the black market, similar to morphine. (we jailed over 30,000 doctors for dispensing it) and simply legalized a couple even if prescription only. But then the war on drugs is very, very profitable so..... We seem to do fine with commercial drugs even though it seems half of them could kill you. But hey, that's America and just ok, there's a profit to be had out there in 'legal' drugland. Oh, and America stills has the navy, just not the money unless of course...we continue to seek naval (military) dominance.

MrRodgers -> RE: The end of 'Pax Americana' ....? (9/2/2012 6:38:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML The 1980 election was an outlyer and strikingly it was not Bush who instigated the recount process, but his opponent. It was indeed Al Gore who requested a recount in 2000. I stand corrected. Thank you. You are as far as I recall the second person to catch me at an error since I have started posting on these forums. Well done! Yes, then the SCOTUS 100% politically ruled that it would do 'irreparable harm' [sic] to recount all of the votes.

MrRodgers -> RE: The end of 'Pax Americana' ....? (9/2/2012 6:46:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML It is difficult to buy your assessment that we are a poor country inasmuch as in 2011 the average per capita wealth in the U.S. was $184,000, roughly the average cost of a home. Furthermore, measuring wealth nation to nation is a tricky business. Additionally, your remark is a smear of the GOP's delusional picture of American Exceptionalism and a "Shining City on the Hill," so is not allowed. [:)] Your krone is only 17 cents per American dollar and as you report and the referenced article supports you are in an inflationary spiral. Eventually, the proceeds from your soverignty fund will diminish in value as the gap between currencies widens, don't you fear? I will admit it was wise of your nation to divert petrol dollars into a sovereignty fund and a pension fund, but how much longer can you compete with British North Sea oil? And what will happen if you vote to join the EU? When is that vote scheduled anyway? The view from afar suggests that Norway is in a bubble bursting process, but only an uneducated guess by me. However, the euphoria there is reminescent of what we experienced at the height of our housing bubble. One problem here, getting back to the OP, is the growing inequality of the distribution of wealth. Another is the crumbling of our infrastructure. Our international airports are not yet third world, but we are trying. I see this internal rot as a contribution to the end of Pax Americana. Averages are extremely misleading and essentially useless. However per capita wealth in 2006 was very bleak indeed. 5 December 2006 – The richest 2 per cent of people in the world own more than half of all household wealth, while the poorer half of the global population control just 1 per cent, according to a study released today by the United Nations University (UNU). It's worse since 2006 and will get worse yet...by design.

vincentML -> RE: The end of 'Pax Americana' ....? (9/2/2012 6:50:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML It is difficult to buy your assessment that we are a poor country inasmuch as in 2011 the average per capita wealth in the U.S. was $184,000, roughly the average cost of a home. Furthermore, measuring wealth nation to nation is a tricky business. Additionally, your remark is a smear of the GOP's delusional picture of American Exceptionalism and a "Shining City on the Hill," so is not allowed. [:)] Your krone is only 17 cents per American dollar and as you report and the referenced article supports you are in an inflationary spiral. Eventually, the proceeds from your soverignty fund will diminish in value as the gap between currencies widens, don't you fear? I will admit it was wise of your nation to divert petrol dollars into a sovereignty fund and a pension fund, but how much longer can you compete with British North Sea oil? And what will happen if you vote to join the EU? When is that vote scheduled anyway? The view from afar suggests that Norway is in a bubble bursting process, but only an uneducated guess by me. However, the euphoria there is reminescent of what we experienced at the height of our housing bubble. One problem here, getting back to the OP, is the growing inequality of the distribution of wealth. Another is the crumbling of our infrastructure. Our international airports are not yet third world, but we are trying. I see this internal rot as a contribution to the end of Pax Americana. Averages are extremely misleading and essentially useless. However per capita wealth in 2006 was very bleak indeed. 5 December 2006 – The richest 2 per cent of people in the world own more than half of all household wealth, while the poorer half of the global population control just 1 per cent, according to a study released today by the United Nations University (UNU). Yes. That's why I remarked on the growing inequality of distribution of wealth in the last paragraph.

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