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Words and History - 9/1/2012 9:56:42 AM   
Bigsqueezer


Posts: 65
Joined: 8/29/2012
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Wading in and stirring conversational shit: I have been looking at many various profiles here getting used to the territory. I had some insights from perhaps a very different perspective. I am currently working on a novel set in a Steampunk version of Victorian England. I decided I was going to write in the voice of some Victorian female characters; a new voice for me; and was immediately struck by a number of social observations drawn from CollarMe.
Women in the Victorian era were treated like Burka-clad women of the third world. They were not allowed to own property until 1870. They gained the right to divorce later. The right to inherit much later. Even the clothing on their backs were property of either a father, husband, brother, uncle, or ward of the courts. Divorce was a nightmare, even if the husband was a total bastard - maybe if the woman won her freedom from him, she was shunned as a scold. Even after rape and brutality.
But that's the picture when things go badly - in the best face a woman was cared for like a china doll, brittle with celebrated weaknesses of emotion and body. The fainting couch is an amazing example. Many consider it a product of excessive corsetry. In reality it was a social tool.
OK - look at your life. If you are feeling sick and cramped, you go to your bedroom. Right? So why is the fainting couch in the middle of the parlor? Valerie Steel, curator of the Colombia School of Fashion's Museum suggests something different.
The Lady of the house is in charge of staff. IF she was one that married into higher station than she was raised, all of her staff were girls she grew up with. Picture that girl in high school that married well and you now pick up her laundry, wash her dishes, and walk her husband's dog? You know what kind of bitch she was and might take her word as law, but probably not. She'd be the same girl, not some lofty Lady.
So The Lady would affect illness and weakness, having occasional fainting spells from stress or just inability to breathe. Oh Dalia, would you please get the laundry. I'd do it myself but the pleurisy last spring left me so fagged. And so on... The fainting couch was in the center of the parlor because it was the seat of The Lady's authority over staff. I feel need to post source here...
(Valerie Steel: The Corset : http://www.amazon.com/The-Corset-A-Cultural-History/dp/0300099533/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1346516634&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Corset)
The social history of a cuckold relationship is one of inference - the woman gained power by sticking her hand inside the man and controlling him like a puppet. Not necessarily out of brutality, or power hunger; try survival. I am specifically researching a woman dressing like a man to gain social equality - not necessarily for status - but for the ability to inherit her father's estate. I am seeing a sliver where the cuckold relationship evolved in reaction to the iron hand of Victorian controls. I have not researched the Cuckold but see it coming.
We in the west laugh or look in horror at the Muslim world at their controls of women. I write this to remind everyone we had our own version of that not so very long ago. Even today, we see the role of women debated hotly in the election year. If a medication that is used for "birth control" is also necessary for a woman to regulate her body, does she come under the WRATH of GOD??? The Victorian mind said yes; the Bible ordained the role of women that was then enshrined in law. We had our own Sharia Law - perhaps not as strictly codified as the Muslim world, but consider this before judging the rest of the world. We are in a culture that is in its first 100 years after unchaining women. Infancy!
Consider the strengths we gained by that move - when you discard 50% of the minds and lives of any culture, the loss is incalculable.
This whole rant started when I read a profile where a woman called herself s "Strick Cuckoldress." I collapsed into giggles over that word. OK ok ok - every language should evolve, but wow. Can you put that on a resume? So can we have a liberal cuckoldress? Maybe a hobbyist cockoldress? And then my mind started playing with the word and struck on the social tactic of cuckoldry being the thing that was weapon #1 against Victorian class slavery. Cucoldry snapped into focus in my head.
I am amazed at us - cuckoldry is something done for fun now.


I think we should talk more about cuckoldry and where it fits in the world. Are the Muslims of 2080 in for the shit when they get their version? Will we all blow each other up for this?

I have been impolitic - slap me if you must. I think I have more to learn on this topic.

>dismount soapbox<

Next?
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RE: Words and History - 9/1/2012 9:58:32 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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While you still have time to edit...paragraphs are your friend, I can't read a wall of text, and I am (somewhat) motivated after your great intro.



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RE: Words and History - 9/1/2012 11:31:08 AM   
AthenaSurrenders


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Fast reply
I thought your opening about the fainting couch and stuff was interesting, but I got a bit confused further into your post.

I can see your point about cuckolding relationships perhaps in some way being a reaction to the relative oppression of women in the Victorian era (that is what you were saying, right? sometimes it takes me a while to tune into someone's style of speech). I'm less clear on how this relates to the laws in some Muslim countries. Are you saying that there will be lots of cuckolding going on in Muslim countries in years to come? And are you saying that cuckolding was somehow connected to (or even caused?) the decline of the class system and the rise of equality for women? That seems a bit unlikely to me, since cuckolding would have left the woman every bit as socially vulnerable as the man, if not more so.

Perhaps you could define what exactly you consider to be a cuckold relationship so we are starting from the same point. I may be missing something crucial here, but I always thought of cuckolding as a kink - though it is interesting from a psychological point of view to look at why that might get people's motors running, I'm not really sure that it's all that relevant to politics of today or how we might judge other cultures. It isn't such a common type of relationship that I think it reflects hugely on the Western world as a whole.

I might be partly missing your point because in the UK the role of women is not debated as a political issue in the same way - I've certainly never known birth control or abortion to be key issues in an election campaign within my lifetime.


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RE: Words and History - 9/1/2012 11:48:10 AM   
Bigsqueezer


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getting it Lady - I HAD parapraphs... ok ok ok excuses suck

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RE: Words and History - 9/1/2012 11:51:09 AM   
ResidentSadist


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Being of Arab (Armenian) lineage, I find it hard to imagine a day when it is not a patriarchal culture. That would be like expecting a matriarchal culture to change. Seriously, has any one culture changed their matriarchal or patriarchal culture when left to their own devices? Sure, some social traits change when subject to capture. Their is a new higher power, your captors. And they have new rules for you being their subordinates. Things like religion and slavery, but left on their own I do not think 80 years is enough time for a culture to change if the past 2,000 hasn't been.

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RE: Words and History - 9/1/2012 11:51:47 AM   
LadyHibiscus


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There was more than one social class, and the different classes led very different lives. Much of what is 'common knowledge' is actually a stereotype.

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RE: Words and History - 9/1/2012 11:55:29 AM   
littlewonder


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Sounds to me like you're trying to analyze your own desires for cuckolding and trying to rationalize in your own head about some kind of block or excuse for why you like what you like.



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RE: Words and History - 9/1/2012 12:02:31 PM   
Bigsqueezer


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@ AthenaSurrenders - The relation to laws in Muslim countries) As the Muslim world enters the tech world and is exposed to the west in greater ways, the roles here will be accepted or rejected. I'm suggesting that as they evolve this cuckolding relationship will come into their world as an organic part of having so many controls in the past.

Cuckolding - defined in this use as (in part but truly not exhaustive in list)
* Woman controls finances, household duties, his free time, his friendships, employment choices
* She receives her wants as well as needs
* She is sexually dominant and in charge/control of her reproduction desires and duties
* She is free to have numerous sexual partners as she sees fit with him having no say over that and maybe even having him watch while he works.

Please remember, I am making this post to better understand this period and looking for your input. I do not think you are missing something - in our day cuckolding is kink but then it may have been something else. It's a process that in NOT my kink - but that does not absolve me from needing to understand it if I want to understand the world I am writing about.

Unafraid to hear I am wrong - I am hoping this is a good place for meeting minds working in this area with no judgements. Deeply appreciate you taking time to reply.

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RE: Words and History - 9/1/2012 12:06:09 PM   
Bigsqueezer


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@ Littlewonder - It has been said by several writing coaches of mine that all writing and epiphanies you have during writing is actually some sort of self inflicted psychotherapy. After all, when writing you lock yourself in a room and talk to yourself. Much!

I have looked a cuckolding with a serious personal abreaction - of course there's some repressed thing there. I'll work on it and maybe even let you know what I find. Well said, thank you.

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RE: Words and History - 9/1/2012 12:12:28 PM   
Bigsqueezer


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at Resident Sadist - YES! Hardly enough time to say we have truly changed. I think that notion alone was the power of the realization I had this morning. Although I will admit by the responses here I think I expressed myself weakly so I am glad to hear any reply.

I am watching American media measuring people during an election year. Every time we get into the discussion about women and their role in society, someone is speaking "expertly" about the topic. In watching the roles taken in kink play-games here on CollarMe, I am more and more convinced we have changed little when we look at the whole world and people are guessing how much we've changed. They have no idea where we were so how do they know how much we've changed? Thank you for replying

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RE: Words and History - 9/1/2012 12:15:45 PM   
Bigsqueezer


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at LadyHibiscus - what a statement!

"Much of what is 'common knowledge' is actually a stereotype. "

I just put that on my wall. In sharpie...


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RE: Words and History - 9/1/2012 12:35:39 PM   
ResidentSadist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bigsqueezer

at Resident Sadist - YES! Hardly enough time to say we have truly changed. I think that notion alone was the power of the realization I had this morning. Although I will admit by the responses here I think I expressed myself weakly so I am glad to hear any reply.

I am watching American media measuring people during an election year. Every time we get into the discussion about women and their role in society, someone is speaking "expertly" about the topic. In watching the roles taken in kink play-games here on CollarMe, I am more and more convinced we have changed little when we look at the whole world and people are guessing how much we've changed. They have no idea where we were so how do they know how much we've changed? Thank you for replying


Amen.

I enjoy your posts and your introduction thread, you seem very articulate. I look forward to your future comments.



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RE: Words and History - 9/1/2012 12:46:26 PM   
BambiBoi


Posts: 461
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bigsqueezer

Wading in and stirring conversational shit: I have been looking at many various profiles here getting used to the territory. I had some insights from perhaps a very different perspective. I am currently working on a novel set in a Steampunk version of Victorian England. I decided I was going to write in the voice of some Victorian female characters; a new voice for me; and was immediately struck by a number of social observations drawn from CollarMe.

Women in the Victorian era were treated like Burka-clad women of the third world. They were not allowed to own property until 1870. They gained the right to divorce later. The right to inherit much later. Even the clothing on their backs were property of either a father, husband, brother, uncle, or ward of the courts. Divorce was a nightmare, even if the husband was a total bastard - maybe if the woman won her freedom from him, she was shunned as a scold. Even after rape and brutality.

But that's the picture when things go badly - in the best face a woman was cared for like a china doll, brittle with celebrated weaknesses of emotion and body. The fainting couch is an amazing example. Many consider it a product of excessive corsetry. In reality it was a social tool.

OK - look at your life. If you are feeling sick and cramped, you go to your bedroom. Right? So why is the fainting couch in the middle of the parlor? Valerie Steel, curator of the Colombia School of Fashion's Museum suggests something different.

The Lady of the house is in charge of staff. IF she was one that married into higher station than she was raised, all of her staff were girls she grew up with. Picture that girl in high school that married well and you now pick up her laundry, wash her dishes, and walk her husband's dog? You know what kind of bitch she was and might take her word as law, but probably not. She'd be the same girl, not some lofty Lady.

So The Lady would affect illness and weakness, having occasional fainting spells from stress or just inability to breathe. Oh Dalia, would you please get the laundry. I'd do it myself but the pleurisy last spring left me so fagged. And so on... The fainting couch was in the center of the parlor because it was the seat of The Lady's authority over staff. I feel need to post source here...(Valerie Steel: The Corset : http://www.amazon.com/The-Corset-A-Cultural-History/dp/0300099533/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1346516634&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Corset)

The social history of a cuckold relationship is one of inference - the woman gained power by sticking her hand inside the man and controlling him like a puppet. Not necessarily out of brutality, or power hunger; try survival. I am specifically researching a woman dressing like a man to gain social equality - not necessarily for status - but for the ability to inherit her father's estate. I am seeing a sliver where the cuckold relationship evolved in reaction to the iron hand of Victorian controls. I have not researched the Cuckold but see it coming.

We in the west laugh or look in horror at the Muslim world at their controls of women. I write this to remind everyone we had our own version of that not so very long ago. Even today, we see the role of women debated hotly in the election year. If a medication that is used for "birth control" is also necessary for a woman to regulate her body, does she come under the WRATH of GOD??? The Victorian mind said yes; the Bible ordained the role of women that was then enshrined in law. We had our own Sharia Law - perhaps not as strictly codified as the Muslim world, but consider this before judging the rest of the world. We are in a culture that is in its first 100 years after unchaining women. Infancy!

Consider the strengths we gained by that move - when you discard 50% of the minds and lives of any culture, the loss is incalculable.

This whole rant started when I read a profile where a woman called herself s "Strick Cuckoldress." I collapsed into giggles over that word. OK ok ok - every language should evolve, but wow. Can you put that on a resume? So can we have a liberal cuckoldress? Maybe a hobbyist cockoldress? And then my mind started playing with the word and struck on the social tactic of cuckoldry being the thing that was weapon #1 against Victorian class slavery. Cucoldry snapped into focus in my head. I am amazed at us - cuckoldry is something done for fun now.

I think we should talk more about cuckoldry and where it fits in the world. Are the Muslims of 2080 in for the shit when they get their version? Will we all blow each other up for this?

I have been impolitic - slap me if you must. I think I have more to learn on this topic.

>dismount soapbox<

Next?


Paragraphs, my gift to you, Miss Parfait. I have some choice words on the matter.




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RE: Words and History - 9/1/2012 1:15:38 PM   
BambiBoi


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There are some things I very much liked about your post. You're clearly a bright man, and you have an amazing mustache. But business first, in order of what irked me. Numbered for your convenience:

1) As you point out, the close of the Victorian Era is widely cited as ~1900: over 100 years ago. That is not infancy. The last 100 years have seen more advancements in civil rights, science, and trade than any other 100 year segment in the history of Earth. An argument could be made that more advances came in this past 100 years than the preceding 11,000 years.

2) Cuckoldry was not a Victorian era phenomenon. Surviving texts can place the practice in the 1300's independently discovered in Europe and Asia. The practice is probably centuries older than that. Basically as soon as monogamy became a thing, the insecure male id got its panties in a twist about female infidelity.

3) You've left out an important part of cuckoldry's history. The practice became popular because people (notably the notable nobles) would marry for status, politics, and finances. Often, these marriages were arranged before the children were even born or conceived. Its no wonder many couples didn't "love" each other. And if you don't love each other, you don't really care if they sleep with other people. He would go wenching, she would be a cuckoldress. It was perfectly normal, just no one talked about it. Our culture today encourages monogamy and prizes marrying for love. That is why, in large part, cuckoldry has become a fetish and little more.

4) You assume the Muslim world is going to have a slew of cuckolds because it was once/is now patriarchal. I grant you that there will probably be more marital infidelity when public stoning is no longer swung by media as a Sword of Damocles, but that is hardly the outbreak of rampant cuckoldry you seem to predict.

I have to admit, the way our society treats squicky women issues is embarrassing. Did you know women in America had easier access to abortion in the 1700's than in 1970? We fall backwards because we put morals on a pedestal, and we lose the intellectual fortitude it takes to reign back the radicals that pushed morals in the fist place.

If you're interested in women dressing as men in Victorian times to succeed in life Albert Nobbs is a MUST WATCH movie for you. Probably was a book too, but I don't know.

Where does cuckoldry fit in the world? Well, it depends on how much the "husband" wants it. If he loves to hate it, then he is a cuckold and the play is a kink. If she is cheating on him, then she might be a cuckoldress, but she's still a cheating tramp to me. One sits on a pedestal, in a corset, grinning over her kingdom while the other frantically re-does her make-up at a stop light while rehearsing her lie.

ETA: 1 type. So far.

< Message edited by BambiBoi -- 9/1/2012 1:23:28 PM >


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RE: Words and History - 9/1/2012 1:57:08 PM   
Bigsqueezer


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To BambiBoi - You are a jackpot of information

I maintain for any revolution of thought or lifestyle that 100 years is long enough for us to forget the ugly past and romanticize the pretty parts. All of the technological changes you mentioned are in their infancy compared to the age of the human race.

I was in error assuming that cucoldry was a Victorian Phenom - thanks for the correction. I think I have some are to look when examining other eras and cultures.

Yes the idea of romantic love as part of a marriage is very new and marriages were property contracts. Even Shakespeare tried to make the play "Romeo and Juliette" a cautionary tale about ignoring the cautions of your elders and not a map for how one should proceed with love - they're dead at the end! This infatuation stuff will KILL you! - Ignoring the Bard it's now the map. I live in New Mexico where the natives scheduled siesta in the afternoon because it's hot, the air is thin, it gets lees able to hold oxygen, and your thinking gets fuzzy then. Western civilization came and we now have rush hour instead. Let's hear it for progress!

but I digress.

Thanks you very very much for the Albert Nobbs hint - that's sweet and a good source.

Note I had never intended to irritate - thanks for that trove of information and counterpoint. I have printed it off and included it in my notes for consideration and future reading and study.


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RE: Words and History - 9/1/2012 2:52:50 PM   
DesFIP


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I disagree with the suggestion of the fainting couch being a social ploy. Upper class women did very little themselves, as much because the luxury of not having to was a way to display her husband's wealth and status. One thing they did do was have official visiting days when people would call on them, other days it was them doing the calling. So the fainting couch was useful not solely for the women of the house but also for visitors, who were also corseted strictly.

Primarily, women didn't marry above their level. So the amount of those who did were negligible. In addition, why would someone have to apologize for being unable to do a task she was paying someone else to do? A job that the other woman was grateful to have as opposed to selling herself on the street.

I don't know if you've read Mrs Beaton's Household Manual. It's online somewhere. It details a great deal about how an upper class household worked. You might find it useful.

As far as the more middle class, where women did some of the work but kept a hired girl for the heavier stuff? Jane Austen shows a lot of that.

The rest of your post jumps around so much, I couldn't follow it.

< Message edited by DesFIP -- 9/1/2012 2:55:57 PM >


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RE: Words and History - 9/1/2012 4:31:03 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bigsqueezer

Wading in and stirring conversational shit: I have been looking at many various profiles here getting used to the territory. I had some insights from perhaps a very different perspective. I am currently working on a novel set in a Steampunk version of Victorian England. I decided I was going to write in the voice of some Victorian female characters; a new voice for me; and was immediately struck by a number of social observations drawn from CollarMe.
Women in the Victorian era were treated like Burka-clad women of the third world. They were not allowed to own property until 1870. They gained the right to divorce later. The right to inherit much later. Even the clothing on their backs were property of either a father, husband, brother, uncle, or ward of the courts. Divorce was a nightmare, even if the husband was a total bastard - maybe if the woman won her freedom from him, she was shunned as a scold. Even after rape and brutality.
But that's the picture when things go badly - in the best face a woman was cared for like a china doll, brittle with celebrated weaknesses of emotion and body. The fainting couch is an amazing example. Many consider it a product of excessive corsetry. In reality it was a social tool.
OK - look at your life. If you are feeling sick and cramped, you go to your bedroom. Right? So why is the fainting couch in the middle of the parlor? Valerie Steel, curator of the Colombia School of Fashion's Museum suggests something different.
The Lady of the house is in charge of staff. IF she was one that married into higher station than she was raised, all of her staff were girls she grew up with. Picture that girl in high school that married well and you now pick up her laundry, wash her dishes, and walk her husband's dog? You know what kind of bitch she was and might take her word as law, but probably not. She'd be the same girl, not some lofty Lady.
So The Lady would affect illness and weakness, having occasional fainting spells from stress or just inability to breathe. Oh Dalia, would you please get the laundry. I'd do it myself but the pleurisy last spring left me so fagged. And so on... The fainting couch was in the center of the parlor because it was the seat of The Lady's authority over staff. I feel need to post source here...
(Valerie Steel: The Corset : http://www.amazon.com/The-Corset-A-Cultural-History/dp/0300099533/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1346516634&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Corset)
The social history of a cuckold relationship is one of inference - the woman gained power by sticking her hand inside the man and controlling him like a puppet. Not necessarily out of brutality, or power hunger; try survival. I am specifically researching a woman dressing like a man to gain social equality - not necessarily for status - but for the ability to inherit her father's estate. I am seeing a sliver where the cuckold relationship evolved in reaction to the iron hand of Victorian controls. I have not researched the Cuckold but see it coming.
We in the west laugh or look in horror at the Muslim world at their controls of women. I write this to remind everyone we had our own version of that not so very long ago. Even today, we see the role of women debated hotly in the election year. If a medication that is used for "birth control" is also necessary for a woman to regulate her body, does she come under the WRATH of GOD??? The Victorian mind said yes; the Bible ordained the role of women that was then enshrined in law. We had our own Sharia Law - perhaps not as strictly codified as the Muslim world, but consider this before judging the rest of the world. We are in a culture that is in its first 100 years after unchaining women. Infancy!
Consider the strengths we gained by that move - when you discard 50% of the minds and lives of any culture, the loss is incalculable.
This whole rant started when I read a profile where a woman called herself s "Strick Cuckoldress." I collapsed into giggles over that word. OK ok ok - every language should evolve, but wow. Can you put that on a resume? So can we have a liberal cuckoldress? Maybe a hobbyist cockoldress? And then my mind started playing with the word and struck on the social tactic of cuckoldry being the thing that was weapon #1 against Victorian class slavery. Cucoldry snapped into focus in my head.
I am amazed at us - cuckoldry is something done for fun now.


I think we should talk more about cuckoldry and where it fits in the world. Are the Muslims of 2080 in for the shit when they get their version? Will we all blow each other up for this?

I have been impolitic - slap me if you must. I think I have more to learn on this topic.

>dismount soapbox<

Next?


What ChatteParfaitt said....paragraphs...syntax....grammar....they're all your friends.

Use them.

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RE: Words and History - 9/1/2012 11:13:38 PM   
xssve


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Well also among other things, the Victorian ideal of woman was thin and pale, they probably didn't eat much and the air quality during the industrial revolution was none too healthy either, I think there was something of an epidemic of Tuberculosis at the time, which is usually linked to overcrowding and malnutrition, but which was also romanticized eroticized (death as an aphrodisiac), a phenomena explored by Mann in The Magic Mountain, and possibly even Dracula.

In any case, acting helpless as a control ploy is not entirely unknown, although it more typically manifests as a martyr complex, but certainly women acting helpless (the weaker sex) and men rushing nobly to their rescue is a significant facet of the Victorian ethos, it's fairly ubiquitous in popular literature.

But I think that's more closely related to bimbofication, i.e., a woman acting weaker or dumber than she actually is, in order to either enhance the masculinity of her paramour, or manipulate him, which is probably related to the fact that female social status was derived largely from her male partner, thus enhancing his status enhanced hers.

I suppose it could conceivably used as guilt manipulation to keep the servants in line, but I don't see it as primary motivating force, caste roles were fairly strictly enforced in Medieval Britain, and that pretty much extended well through the Victorian era.

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