Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: And on the first day of the DNC the debt hits 16 TRILLION


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: And on the first day of the DNC the debt hits 16 TRILLION Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: And on the first day of the DNC the debt hits 16 TR... - 9/4/2012 8:13:01 PM   
sticslave


Posts: 5
Joined: 1/2/2008
Status: offline
Consuption Tax would fix this.  No Fed income tax just a consuption tax. !00% of the people in America would be paying Taxes.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: And on the first day of the DNC the debt hits 16 TR... - 9/4/2012 10:34:35 PM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

Psst Polite, Bush added 6.1T in 8 years, including two wars. Obama has added 5T in four years... do the math, my friend.


What is your solution?

What policy during the last four years would have worked better?


I'd never get elected, my policies would be too draconian for you, and most Americans to stomach... You're too used to the status quo.

_____________________________

http://www.extra-life.org/

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: And on the first day of the DNC the debt hits 16 TR... - 9/5/2012 5:28:03 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Psst Polite, Bush added 6.1T in 8 years, including two wars. Obama has added 5T in four years... do the math, my friend.




Psst Rob, your idea of maths doesnt even cut it. Obama is paying interest on Bush`s cock up......Do some research my friend.

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: And on the first day of the DNC the debt hits 16 TR... - 9/5/2012 6:15:40 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I'd never get elected, my policies would be too draconian for you, and most Americans to stomach... You're too used to the status quo.


Does this mean you would have thrown the economy into a great depression by letting the banks fail and unemployment surge past past 50% while everyone's 401Ks dropped 75% of their value? (I.E. better Americans lose their homes, businesses, and savings to restore us back to an unregulated free market, which is the way we need to live.)

Remember, there were only two choices in 2009 -- A Great Depression or Pouring money into the banking system to prop it up while conducting a Keynesian bout of government spending to keep American business alive / on life support until public confidence was restored. The only difference between 2009 and 1929 is our global economy, and so a Great Depression in the USA would have spread to Europe and Asia like a contagion.

There were other choices somewhat between these two options: Stronger or weaker financial reform, criminal prosecutions for mortgage fraud, socialization of one or two banks. It makes sense to get mad about failed/bad choices in this area as a voter, but to get mad at the 2009 policy maker working in a catastrophe mode seems to miss the point of what happened.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 9/5/2012 6:22:57 AM >

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: And on the first day of the DNC the debt hits 16 TR... - 9/5/2012 4:08:01 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Restyles
LMAO. You have an odd view of history, given it was the GOP that fought to not raise it and was blamed for the credit downgrade as a result.


Hmm, well, let's see:

While the Clinton administration was making the budget, it had to be raised twice. Under Obama, it was raised once.

When the Reagan administration was making the budget, it had to be raised 6 times, under Bush Sr it was raised 3 times, and under Bush Jr it was raised another 6 times.

I feel like maybe Republicans shouldn't be pointing any fingers here.

(Source)

(in reply to Restyles)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: And on the first day of the DNC the debt hits 16 TR... - 9/5/2012 4:13:29 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline
The 49% of Americans that pay no Federal income tax wouldn't like that idea.

(in reply to sticslave)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: And on the first day of the DNC the debt hits 16 TR... - 9/5/2012 4:19:09 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
I would love to see deficit reduction, and to achieve it you need to (1) raise taxes; (2) cut entitlements (medicare) and military spending. (Clinton raised taxes and cut military spending -- he was vilified by Republicans and they forecast that his policies would ruin the US economy.)

How is this going to get done?

Down the road, I'm not sure when, the US will probably just print the money to pay it off or down, creating high inflation while deflating everyone's net worth.

Under Obama, you had two choices: (1) Cut government spending and send the economy off a cliff or (2) Increase the debt, stabilize the economy and deal with the debt later.

As I understand it, there was no option (3) on the table.

Next, there is hard economic evidence that austerity increases public debt and unemployment.


Yeah, it seems like the that's very true. The countries that've tried that responding to recession with austerity have had it backfire on them and just make things worse.

But once things have recovered and the economy can take it, we will definitely have to put some austerity measures in place. Just no way around it. Hopefully the Republicans will have divorced themselves from Grover Norquist by then, and the Congress can get behind something like Simpson-Bowles.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: And on the first day of the DNC the debt hits 16 TR... - 9/5/2012 4:30:16 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline
There is a 3rd option. Cut taxes and red tape on all businesses to get the govt. out of the way. Then you will see this economy begin to turn around..

(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: And on the first day of the DNC the debt hits 16 TR... - 9/5/2012 4:31:14 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sticslave

Consuption Tax would fix this.  No Fed income tax just a consuption tax. !00% of the people in America would be paying Taxes.



100% of Americans pay taxes now. It's just that some of them "only" pay sales tax, gas tax, liquor tax, business tax, car tax, state income tax, local income tax, property tax, and payroll tax.

Switching to only consumption taxes would be both deeply regressive and very anti-business. It would mean 1) working class and middle class people would pay much higher % taxes than the upper class because they spend almost all of their income, and 2) having a 25-50% sales tax would decimate consumption and seriously hurt business.

(in reply to sticslave)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: And on the first day of the DNC the debt hits 16 TR... - 9/5/2012 4:37:07 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

There is a 3rd option. Cut taxes and red tape on all businesses to get the govt. out of the way. Then you will see this economy begin to turn around..


Because the last time we had this approach was such a great time for this country. Tenement housing, air choking-thick with pollution, streets full of trash and rotting animals, malnutritioned children working in coal mines, 80-hour workweeks, workers dying regularly from unsafe conditions, toxic unregulated medicines, deadly disease epidemics, and don't forget the much more frequent and worse economic crashes. That was definitely when our country was doing the best. </sarcasm>

(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: And on the first day of the DNC the debt hits 16 TR... - 9/5/2012 4:38:56 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
Americans always have and can continue to do amazing things, when they don't have an intrusive government handcuffing their dominant hands to their balls.

There was a time in this country when the federal government wasn't everyone's daddy and we seem to have gotten through all those hard times. I've always believed that to err is human but to really fuck things up requires a government employee (apologies and exception to Rob).

There's not doubt about it, we're in a mess but, we could reduce the deficit, right now by doing one thing that would rally ALL Americans; just eliminate the IRS, institute a comsumption tax (which is, essentially a sales tax) which will shift the bulk of the paper work onto business owners to collect and send the taxes revenues to the state and then, federal government.

The only exceptions would be for charities or for purchases that could be shown to be strictly for building/expanding a business. The fat cats want a new stretch limo, cool. Add another 9-11% onto the cost of the car. It puts more money into the pockets of Americans to decide how they wish to spend it (which just might be a helluva stimulus package, too) and it removes about 2.5 billion dollars a year by eliminating the federal money being dumped into the IRS (which, supposedly isn't a government agency. Ha!).



Peace and comfort,



Michael


< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 9/5/2012 4:40:20 PM >


_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: And on the first day of the DNC the debt hits 16 TR... - 9/5/2012 4:46:47 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
Executive Summary

Close to half of U.S. households currently do not owe federal income tax. The Urban Institute-Brookings Tax Policy Center estimates that 46 percent of households will owe no federal income tax for 2011. [1] A widely cited figure is a Joint Committee on Taxation estimate that 51 percent of households paid no federal income tax in 2009.[2] (The TPC figure for 2009 also is 51 percent.) [3]

These figures are sometimes cited as evidence that low- and moderate-income families do not pay sufficient taxes. Yet these figures, their significance, and their policy implications are widely misunderstood.

The 51 percent and 46 percent figures are anomalies that reflect the unique circumstances of the past few years, when the economic downturn greatly swelled the number of Americans with low incomes. The figures for 2009 are particularly anomalous; in that year, temporary tax cuts that the 2009 Recovery Act created — including the “Making Work Pay” tax credit and an exclusion from tax of the first $2,400 in unemployment benefits — were in effect and removed millions of Americans from the federal income tax rolls. Both of these temporary tax measures have since expired.

In 2007, before the economy turned down, 40 percent of households did not owe federal income tax. This figure more closely reflects the percentage that do not owe income tax in normal economic times.[4]
These figures cover only the federal income tax and ignore the substantial amounts of other federal taxes — especially the payroll tax — that many of these households pay. As a result, these figures greatly overstate the share of households that do not pay federal taxes. Tax Policy Center data show that only about 17 percent of households did not pay any federal income tax or payroll tax in 2009, despite the high unemployment and temporary tax cuts that marked that year.[5] In 2007, a more typical year, the figure was 14 percent. This percentage would be even lower if it reflected other federal taxes that households pay, including excise taxes on gasoline and other items.

Most of the people who pay neither federal income tax nor payroll taxes are low-income people who are elderly, unable to work due to a serious disability, or students, most of whom subsequently become taxpayers. (In years like the last few, this group also includes a significant number of people who have been unemployed the entire year and cannot find work.)

Moreover, low-income households as a group do, in fact, pay federal taxes. Congressional Budget Office data show that the poorest fifth of households paid an average of 4.0 percent of their incomes in federal taxes in 2007, the latest year for which these data are available — not an insignificant amount given how modest these households’ incomes are; the poorest fifth of households had average income of $18,400 in 2007.[6] The next-to-the bottom fifth — those with incomes between $20,500 and $34,300 in 2007 — paid an average of 10.6 percent of their incomes in federal taxes.

Moreover, even these figures greatly understatelow-income households’ totaltax burden because these households also pay substantial state and local taxes. Data from the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy show that the poorest fifth of households paid a stunning 12.3 percent of their incomes in state and local taxes in 2011.[7]

When all federal, state, and local taxes are taken into account, the bottom fifth of households pays about 16 percent of their incomes in taxes, on average. The second-poorest fifth pays about 21 percent.[8]

It also is important to consider who the people are who do not owe federal income tax in a given year.

TPC estimates show that 61 percent of those that owed no federal income tax in a given year are working households.[9] These people do pay payroll taxes as well as federal excise taxes, and, as noted, state and local taxes. Most of these working households also pay federal income tax in other years, when their incomes are higher — which can be seen by looking at the low-income working households that receive the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC).

The leading study of this issue found that the majority of households that receive the EITC get it for only one or two years at a time, such as when their income drops due to a temporary layoff, and pay federal income tax in most other years. The study examined the filers who claimed the EITC at least once during an 18-year periodand found that they paid a net of several hundred billion dollars in federal income tax over that period.[10] This finding shows that while some households will receive refundable tax credits in a given year whose value may exceed their payroll tax liability, they pay significant federal income taxes over time in addition to the payroll and state and local taxes they pay each year.

The remainder of those who pay no income tax are primarily elderly, disabled, or students.

The fact that most people who don’t owe federal income tax in a given year do pay substantial amounts of other taxes — and also are net income taxpayers over time — belies the claim that households that do not owe income tax in a given year will form bad policy judgments because they “don’t have any skin in the game.”

Furthermore, although the federal tax system is progressive overall, state and local tax systems are regressive and undo a significant share of that progressivity. There is nothing wrong with having one part of the overall tax system shield low- and moderate-income households, who pay substantial amounts of other taxes and generally pay federal income tax as well in other years.

To substantially increase the share of households that owe federal income tax, policymakers would have to take such steps as: lowering the personal exemption or standard deduction — which would tax many low-income working families into, or deeper into, poverty; weakening the EITC or Child Tax Credit, which would significantly increase child poverty while reducing incentives for work over welfare; or paring back the tax exclusion for Social Security benefits, which would subject more seniors with modest fixed incomes to the income tax.

This analysis now explores these issues in more detail.

At a Senate Finance Committee hearing in May 2011, Senator Charles Grassley said, “According to the Joint Committee on Taxation, 49 percent of households are paying 100 percent of taxes coming in to the federal government” (meaning that the other 51 percent pay no federal tax whatsoever). At the same hearing, Cato Institute Senior Fellow Alan Reynolds asserted, “Poor people don’t pay taxes in this country.” In 2010, Fox Business host Stuart Varney said on Fox and Friends, “Yes, 47 percent of households pay not a single dime in taxes.”[13]

None of these assertions are correct. As the Tax Policy Center’s Howard Gleckman noted regarding a TPC estimate that almost half of Americans owed no federal income tax in 2009, “rarely has a bit of data been so misunderstood, or so misused.” Gleckman wrote:

Let me explain — repeat actually — what [the figure] means: About half of taxpayers paid no federal income tax last year. It does not mean they paid no tax at all. Many shelled out Social Security and Medicare payroll taxes. [….] Some paid property taxes and, it is fair to say, just about all of them paid sales taxes of one kind or another. So to say they pay no taxes is flat wrong.[14]

The reality is that the income tax is one of a number of types of taxes that individuals pay, both over the course of their lifetimes and in a given year, and it makes little sense to treat it as though it were the only tax that matters. Some 82 percent of working households pay more in payroll taxes than in federal income taxes.[15] In fact, low- and moderate-income people pay a much larger share of their incomes in federal payroll taxes than high-income people do: taxpayers in the bottom 20 percent of the income scale paid an average of 8.8 percent of their incomes in payroll taxes in 2007, compared to 1.6 percent of income for those in the top 1 percent of the income distribution (see Figure 2).[16]

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3505

Might benefit some around here to read this.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 32
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2]
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: And on the first day of the DNC the debt hits 16 TRILLION Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094