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RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassign... - 9/5/2012 10:07:12 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

It is not optional, it is not cosmetic. It is medically prescribed.


In this case by the DOC (Department of Corrections) doctors. (Source in my last post.)

On page 12, a specialist hired by the DOC doctors was fired by the Deputy Commissioner after recommending treatment.

There are several instances of DOC commissioners doctor-shopping for those known for their objections to reassignment surgery.



< Message edited by kalikshama -- 9/5/2012 10:33:03 AM >

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RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassign... - 9/5/2012 10:58:56 AM   
FMRFGOPGAL


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Your Google-fu is weak and slow, F.  You should studyTazzy style.   


I'll assume that was an insult.
and leave on the ground for someone else.
I actually DO admire Tazzygirl. and several other women here.

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RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassign... - 9/5/2012 11:02:08 AM   
Jaquin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

It is not optional, it is not cosmetic. It is medically prescribed


Oh but it is optional...try getting this operation through your medical health insurance and see what they call it. If it is optional surgery for me it is for him as well.

Butch


Manitoba, the province in which I reside, covers the cost of my upcoming SRS fully, including reimbursing me for the airfare required to fly to Montreal to receive the surgery. While it is considered optional the consideration is only insofar as those people who feel they can manage life with mismatched genders; for those of us who cannot we face a higher then average suicide rate - along with several psychological issues ranging from social anxiety to the desire to self mutilate (a transgendered friend of mine tried to cut off her penis by herself; she has since had surgery and last I heard is happy as can be) and many, obviously enough to make it covered by public health care, feel that such issues are unacceptable and treatment should be given where it is needed.

As someone who has been waiting eight very long years for surgery (coming in 2 months!!!!) trust me when I say I have done a lot of damage to myself both physically and psychologically due to my desire to just curl up in a corner and die because every new day was an unbearable reminder of what I was, and what I should be.

That this woman murdered her wife is irrelevant, yes keep her incarcerated, yes make her pay the price for her actions: BUT! but, make her pay for them how everyone else pays for murder which is time in prison, not time in prison plus time being tortured by a proven medical and psychological condition purposefully left untreated.

She won't get lighter treatment for her crime, but she shouldn't get heavier either.

Edit for grammar.

< Message edited by Jaquin -- 9/5/2012 11:04:45 AM >

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RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassign... - 9/5/2012 11:15:02 AM   
CalifChick


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

End of argument. This person should get the treatment prescribed by the State to maintain her health and wellbeing


Not the end I'm afraid... I agree the basic health of an inmate is the responsibility of the state...but...optional cosmetic surgery, as this is, should NOT be my responsibility and provided with public funds. And to go even further...if say a liver transplant is required and there is a limited supply then I believe those incarcerated should be at the bottom of the list rather than the top as as happened in the past.

Butch


I think the bigger issue is as described here... what is basic healthcare and what is not. One's life should not be enriched by being incarcerated. If any joe on the street can get the surgery, then I would call it basic. If one presents to an emergency room and the illness or injury would be treated as an emergency, then it's basic healthcare. If it is something that many, many people live with because they cannot afford the treatment on their own, and it is not life-threatening (such as a ruptured appendix, a heart attack, a broken bone, etc.), then prisoners should not get it either.

I don't see that as punishment at all, unless we can also call it punishment for those who cannot get the surgery because they are not incarcerated.

Cali


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RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassign... - 9/5/2012 11:19:48 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Your Google-fu is weak and slow, F.  You should studyTazzy style.   



LOL

Thank you, I think.

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RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassign... - 9/5/2012 11:34:01 AM   
OttersSwim


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

I don't see that as punishment at all, unless we can also call it punishment for those who cannot get the surgery because they are not incarcerated.

Cali



And I absolutely would call it punishment. This is no different than correcting a congenital heart defect, cleft palette, or other defect of birth. Having SRS covered by insurance is still a long way off in this country, but it is essential and often life or death for those seriously affected by GID.


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RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassign... - 9/5/2012 11:42:00 AM   
CalifChick


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim


quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

I don't see that as punishment at all, unless we can also call it punishment for those who cannot get the surgery because they are not incarcerated.

Cali



And I absolutely would call it punishment. This is no different than correcting a congenital heart defect, cleft palette, or other defect of birth. Having SRS covered by insurance is still a long way off in this country, but it is essential and often life or death for those seriously affected by GID.



Okay, then when all those punished people get their surgery, everyone can get it. Do prisoners routinely get birth defect corrective surgery when incarcerated??

I think the bottom line for me is, again, a life should not be ENRICHED by being incarcerated.

Cali



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RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassign... - 9/5/2012 11:47:14 AM   
LadyHibiscus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick


quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim


quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

I don't see that as punishment at all, unless we can also call it punishment for those who cannot get the surgery because they are not incarcerated.

Cali



And I absolutely would call it punishment. This is no different than correcting a congenital heart defect, cleft palette, or other defect of birth. Having SRS covered by insurance is still a long way off in this country, but it is essential and often life or death for those seriously affected by GID.



Okay, then when all those punished people get their surgery, everyone can get it. Do prisoners routinely get birth defect corrective surgery when incarcerated??

I think the bottom line for me is, again, a life should not be ENRICHED by being incarcerated.

Cali




And here I am aligned with my sister. This person is being REWARDED. And now that she'll be physically female, will she be moved to a women's facility?




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RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassign... - 9/5/2012 12:00:25 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

And now that she'll be physically female, will she be moved to a women's facility?


It seems to me this would open another can of worms. First... I would think that if the whole point of the surgery is to make this person a woman then she would have to be transferred to a woman's wing or prison.

Second...When this is done will there be repercussions in the woman’s prison? I know what I am about to say is not always true but seems to be in many of these cases. The woman may be changed by artificial means from a man to a woman ...and will most likely need to remain on hormone treatment but she may still have the muscle structure and strength of a man. This could become a problem when incarcerated with woman with slighter builds.

Butch

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RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassign... - 9/5/2012 12:05:12 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Most of the time, when the appendix is removed, it isn't yet a medical necessity. At least not around these parts.

Of course, treating psychosis isn't a medical necessity, either, in that sense.


The point is that if he is not going to die unless he has the surgery, then there is no reason for the state to pay for it. He is a convicted murder, the state has an obligation of necessary health care. Unless it can be demonstrated that GID is a psychosis (and the last time I checked, it wasn't) that makes him a risk to others or himself, I do not see why the state should be obligated to treat him.

quote:

Thanks for confirming that prejudices against GID and intersex conditions are alive and well on CM.


Read my profile and then come back here and call me a bigot.

quote:

Identity-wise, he apparently is a woman, which is what the judge has concluded (and I daresay on a more solid foundation than you dismissed that conclusion). As the state has a responsibility to the people it chooses to incarcerate, it becomes the natural and largely inevitable conclusion that it needs to deal with a diagnosed medical condition in a reasonable manner. Currently, that means reassignment surgery and the like. If you're looking to abandon the diagnosis, go try to convince the medical establishment of your nonsense. If you're looking to abolish the application of the medical establishment's prevailing guidelines to prisoners, go become a politician and flush your country further down the drain.


I do not dismiss the medical diagnosis nor do I have any grandiose plans to convince the medical establishment of anything. Why would I want to convince them to change something I don't have a problem with? . I refer to the convicted murder here as "he" because I simply do see him as worthy of the respect that I would give to the non-murdering transgendered people I know. It would be an insult to them as well as to women in general.

quote:

No. Claiming that it licenced the murder, or somehow made it okay, would be nonsense. But nobody claimed that.


That's how the post came across to me. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong. People misinterpret what others have written sometime (as you have done in this case). I'm not ashamed to admit a mistake.

quote:

Claiming that it may have been the reason for the murder, is merely speculation, and laws have been passed on less substantiated speculation with alarming regularity. Having a reason to kill doesn't necessarily mean that the reason is good enough to make it a lawful killing, or even a moral one, just that a reason exists. Which is usually the case when people commit murder. If you prefer to see murder as a random accident with no rhyme or reason, by all means do so. The rest of us prefer to have fewer murders, and so do the reasonable thing: figure out the reasons and then work on the countermeasures with a grasp of cause and effect.


Where are you coming up with this shit? Yeah... I want to see more murders.

The man committed a murder. If we are agreed that GID did not diminish his capacity to distinguish reality from fantasy or right from wrong then he is not insane, and the whole thing is a non-issue. The only issue that remains is whether or not the state should be obligated to pay for the murder's sex change operation. As I have already stated, I do not believe it should be.

quote:

Actually, the standard has more to do with public perception than with anything else, mostly as a consquence of a president being attacked by a mentally ill person and the public being outraged at the idea that it might not qualify for prison. Which makes just as much sense as convicting a surgeon that has a sudden heart attack during a surgery of medical malpractice or even murder. If the act is not voluntary in nature, or is a reasonable response to perceived reality when perceptions are involuntarily altered, or stems from an inability to respond reasonably, then the act does not carry moral culpability and should not result in prison, but treatment.


So what's your problem?

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RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassign... - 9/5/2012 12:08:11 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

And now that she'll be physically female, will she be moved to a women's facility?


It seems to me this would open another can of worms. First... I would think that if the whole point of the surgery is to make this person a woman then she would have to be transferred to a woman's wing or prison.

Second...When this is done will there be repercussions in the woman’s prison? I know what I am about to say is not always true but seems to be in many of these cases. The woman may be changed by artificial means from a man to a woman ...and will most likely need to remain on hormone treatment but she may still have the muscle structure and strength of a man. This could become a problem when incarcerated with woman with slighter builds.

Butch



Yes, I am thinking there will be issues there with her acceptance as a transwoman. I have no experience of working with a prison population, but I am GUESSING that it will be a very hard road there with a lot of hostility.

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RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassign... - 9/5/2012 12:11:58 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

QFT



I don't doubt that there are bigots of every stripe here on CM.

However, I am not one of them (except against bigots, I can't stand them). In the future, if you have any doubts about my position on any particular issue I would prefer that you inquire of me directly rather than rely on someone else's mis-comprehension before drawing any conclusions.

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RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassign... - 9/5/2012 12:18:14 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

If you are commenting on my statement that I couldn't help feeling that the whole sorry episode (the murder of the spouse) might have been avoided completely if treatment had been rendered earlier, then it appears you misunderstood my statement. I did not suggest at any point that the GID issues led to the murder.

I was alluding to the probability that had the GID issue been cleared up earlier in this person's life, then the marriage and subsequent murder wouldn't have happened. Which is, if you will pardon my saying so, a statement of the obvious.


It did seem like you were making that conclusion or, at least, drawing an indirect link between GID and murder. If, however, their is no link then there is simply no way of knowing whether or not the murder would have happened anyway... which makes his GID and the murder separate issues anyway.

What may see obvious to you as you are thinking it may not come across so obviously in the written word. People have a natural tendency to make links that you did not see... as Aswad has clearly demonstrated.

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RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassign... - 9/5/2012 12:50:28 PM   
OttersSwim


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Yes, I am thinking there will be issues there with her acceptance as a transwoman. I have no experience of working with a prison population, but I am GUESSING that it will be a very hard road there with a lot of hostility.


She is currently a transwoman living as a female among males. Post surgery, she would be a woman, living as a female among females.

This is not a reward or an enrichment in my view. This is a medical condition for which treatment has been prescribed by multiple physicians.


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RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassign... - 9/5/2012 12:54:44 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Status: offline 		Well we are not going to agree on her entitlement to SRS, Otters. Too many people on the outside NEVER GET SURGERY who are just as "worthy" as this woman.

Is she being accepted in her current situation? Doubtful. I don't think her welcome will be any warmer in a women's facility. I am reminded of that whole "women born women" think that Fest uses to keep transfolk out. LOTS of female hating of the transfolk.

I don't envy her. She's getting her surgery, yay for her, but the transition is going to be much harder than it would be on the outside.

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RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassign... - 9/5/2012 1:23:03 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
And I absolutely would call it punishment. This is no different than correcting a congenital heart defect, cleft palette, or other defect of birth. Having SRS covered by insurance is still a long way off in this country, but it is essential and often life or death for those seriously affected by GID.


quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick
Okay, then when all those punished people get their surgery, everyone can get it. Do prisoners routinely get birth defect corrective surgery when incarcerated??

I think the bottom line for me is, again, a life should not be ENRICHED by being incarcerated.


I've got to agree with Cali on this, I find the idea of a murderer getting better health care than the rest of us appalling.

That said gender is apparently not as binary as myths have lead us to believe and I hope that we as a culture manage to reconcile our beliefs about gender with reality sooner rather than later.

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RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassign... - 9/5/2012 1:29:19 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

And now that she'll be physically female, will she be moved to a women's facility?


Judge Wolf said correction officials, not himself, should decide where the surgery should take place, who should perform it and where Kosilek should be incarcerated after the surgery.

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RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassign... - 9/5/2012 1:30:01 PM   
CalifChick


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

This is a medical condition for which treatment has been prescribed by multiple physicians.



The prescription alone does not make it medically necessary. If SRS is not given, the person will not die as a consequence, or suffer other physical effects.

I am not against SRS. I am against inmates being enriched (and yes, this is an enrichment) by being incarcerated. An enrichment is something that makes someone's life better. I see no reason to make an inmate's, and in particular, a murderer's life BETTER.

By the way, I think part of the problem is that GID is classified as a mental illness. The judge stated that SRS is the cure. Really? A cure? Don't think so. So If I'm suffering from paranoia, is the cure to kill everyone I think is out to get me?

< Message edited by CalifChick -- 9/5/2012 1:34:10 PM >

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RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassign... - 9/5/2012 1:30:46 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

I've got to agree with Cali on this, I find the idea of a murderer getting better health care than the rest of us appalling.


http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2012/09/04/judge-orders-sex-change-operation-for-federal-prisoner/

Despite the hormone treatment and psychotherapy, Kosilek has attempted to castrate himself and twice tried to commit suicide, according to court documents.

“It is unusual to treat a prisoner suffering severely from a gender identity disorder differently than the numerous inmates suffering from more familiar forms of mental illness,” wrote Judge Wolf, an appointee of President Ronald Reagan. “It is not permissible for prison officials to do so just because the fact that a gender identity disorder is a major mental illness not understood by much of the public and the required treatment for it is unpopular.”

Judge Wolf acknowledged that Mr. Kosilek, a convicted murderer, may receive better care for his disorder than many law-abiding Americans.

“It may seem strange that in the United States citizens do not generally have a constitutional right to adequate medical care, but the Eighth Amendment promises prisoners such care,” he wrote, pointing to a 2011 Supreme Court decision that said providing anything less was “incompatible with the concept of human dignity.”

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RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassign... - 9/5/2012 1:31:56 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

If SRS is not given, the person will not die as a consequence, or suffer other physical effects.


Kosilek has attempted to castrate himself and twice tried to commit suicide, according to court documents.

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