RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (Full Version)

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GotSteel -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 6:44:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
Knee or hip replacement surgery then...same thing.


I call bad analogy.

If the treatment you want to compare SRS to isn't experimental and isn't one the government refuses to provide for anyone else than you are not making a valid comparison.




FatDomDaddy -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 6:46:05 PM)

Fast Reply

The biggest thing is that this murderous MALE thug will get to do the rest of his time in a Woman's Prison.

Keeping a woman in a male prison would is CRUEL AND UNUSUAL Punishment.









GotSteel -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 6:52:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ
How can a medical procedure that was first performed in 1930 (albeit primitively compared to today), be consider "experimental"?
That is 83 years ago, if my arithmetic is correct.


quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.cms.gov/Regulations-and-Guidance/Guidance/Transmittals/downloads/R131CIM.pdf
Transsexual surgery for sex reassignment of transsexuals is controversial. Because of the lack of
well controlled, long term studies of the safety and effectiveness of the surgical procedures and
attendant therapies for transsexualism, the treatment is considered experimental. Moreover, there
is a high rate of serious complications for these surgical procedures. For these reasons, transsexual
surgery is not covered.




Winterapple -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 7:12:08 PM)

I'm not railing about anything just offering
my opinion on the topic at hand.

I've not only read the Norwegian
thread I contributed to it with a
post about the US penal system
being corrupted by for profit
companies. Rehabilitation is not
the goal of the current US penal
system. But I don't see this thread
as having anything to do with
rehabilitation. It's about the consistent
application of the existing law.

It's not surprisingly has branched
out into the 8th amendment and
US healthcare. Whether there are
more worthy candidates is irrelevant
to me. I believe all Americans are
entitled to healthcare as a basic
human right. The judge based his
decision based on the physicians
recommendations. He was under
no obligation under the law to
poll the populace or ask the opinion
of every qualified physician in
the free world.

I'm not qualified to say if the doctors
are right or wrong in making the
recommendation in this case.
I imagine as with any case you
would have no problem finding
experts who argue for and against
it. It's the role of judges in our
society to weigh evidence and make
decisions based on the law.
Our justice system isn't like American
Idol no matter how much many may
wish it to be so.
If railing and worthiness is on the
table this case is small potatoes.
What is this case next to a death
penalty case? What are taxpayer
paid surgeries in comparison to
the erosion of large segments of
society due to the prison for profit
scams? What's at the heart of all
these quandaries? I don't know.
The soul of a nation? The integrity
of a society? Civilization itself?




OttersSwim -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 7:50:47 PM)

Well and so this is my final reply here I think, and it is simply to say that by this thread it is clear to me that there is a very very long way to go before transsexuals of any stripe are really free to live their lives unmolested - even the bad ones. Go back and look at that photo of the triple beds and 60 males to a room and put yourself in there as a MtF transsexual...

It is unbelievable and sad to me that we are still a society that has moved so little, accepts so little, sees even less, and discriminates so much.




FatDomDaddy -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 8:06:16 PM)

So what's next Race Reassignment Surgery?





Hillwilliam -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 8:08:11 PM)

It's pretty simple. If you don't want to be in that room, don't murder someone.




LadyHibiscus -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 8:11:01 PM)

Thanks, Hilly.

And those of you who think Michelle's got it bad in a men's facility? Those women will *eviscerate* her.




FatDomDaddy -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 8:22:33 PM)


quote:

Those women will *eviscerate* her.


Cute sound bite but as a rule, women's prison's are far, far less violent than men's prisons.




LadyHibiscus -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 8:51:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

Those women will *eviscerate* her.


Cute sound bite but as a rule, women's prison's are far, far less violent than men's prisons.



As a rule, yes. It's unusual for women to resort to violence. We're more subtle, and there are better ways. Dont underestimate the ability of a woman to destroy what threatens her. The amount of hate I've seen in the lesbian community for transfolk is *tremendous*. Michelle is not going to be welcomed as 'one of us' by the prison population.

I suddenly have a vision of one of those 'education' sessions, like where companies tell us that sexual harassment is bad

This is just not going to play out well, for any group involved.




LadyPact -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 9:27:44 PM)

Hib, I think you have a very good point. We're talking murder of this person's female spouse when, as a male, that person was stronger and overpowering. Those women aren't going to be all that accepting.

After thinking about this for a while, the closest actual surgery that I can think of that would come close as far as conditions and standard of care would be breast reconstruction surgery post mastectomy. I'd feel the same way if it wasn't available on the outside, but was provided on the inside.





stellauk -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/7/2012 1:41:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43

Knee and hip replacements are done to restore function.



This is the exact same reason that gender reassignment therapy and SRS gender reassignment surgery is made available to the transgendered.

GID is a genetic defect in some ways similar to Down's Syndrome. However unlike Down's Syndrome there are no physical symptoms, unlike Down's Syndrome it does not affect someone's appearance, unlike Down's Syndrome it's not something which can be tested for.

Someone with GID identifies themselves as being of a different gender to their physical gender and as a result feels that they are not that physical gender and are unable to be themselves or function as themselves on any level as that gender.

Unlike with any other medical condition society generally forces you to either have to constantly prove yourself as that other gender or to completely give up your sense of self and play along with being your physical gender and somehow come up with a new sense of self congruent with your physical gender - i.e. you have to become a new person.

Gender reassignment has got nothing to do with a man becoming a woman (or vice versa). This is not possible. Gender reassignment is all about developing the gender identity of the person who is transgendered so that they can be on a par with everybody else in society, enjoy a sense of self which is congruent psychologically, emotionally and physically so that they can function on a par with everyone else in society.

Part of having a sense of self is having a body or appearance which you feel belongs to you. So okay, you may be a bit disappointed that your breasts are too large or too small, or your penis isn't the right shape, but generally speaking if you're cisgendered (i.e. not transgendered) the chances are is that you have a body which you're generally happy with and which confirms your gender identity.

The transgendered don't have this, and the whole idea of gender reassignment and transitioning is that they can end up with a body so that they can have a sense of self and be able to function in society just like everyone else.

Therefore SRS reassignment surgery isn't 'cosmetic' surgery, but like the hormones and the therapy something which is medically necessary for the transgendered to have that sense of self and be able to function in society on a par with everyone else.

Being referred to as or thought of as a gender other than the one you are is something that most people would find offensive. So why then does the same thing become acceptable when the person in question is transgendered?

It also has to be said that if a judge can rule that a convicted murderer is eligible for SRS gender reassignment surgery, then surely just as easily a judge can issue a ruling on gender acquisition and gender recognition, it can become law. If the transgendered were to be legally recognized as being their acquired gender prior to surgery when they are receiving gender reassignment therapy and hormones then rulings such as this for Kosilek would not be an issue.





tweakabelle -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/7/2012 2:47:06 AM)

quote:

If the transgendered were to be legally recognized as being their acquired gender prior to surgery when they are receiving gender reassignment therapy and hormones then rulings such as this for Kosilek would not be an issue.


Precisely. The bind that transgender people face is that society insists genitals determine gender (though everyone with a little knowledge about gender knows this is untrue), and that this is determined at birth remaining irrevocable throughout a lifetime. TGs are trapped by the social and legal fiction that there are only two legitimate genders, both of which are "fixed and immutable". Any challenge to or deviation from this myth is met with ferocious opposition.

TGs find it impossible to live with the bodies they are born with, and subject to savage intolerance when they try to do something about it.

A more enlightened (and accurate) understanding of gender would eliminate the problem for all parties.




FatDomDaddy -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/7/2012 2:49:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

The amount of hate I've seen in the lesbian community for transfolk is *tremendous*. M


Hate is a strong word... but posers of any stripe tend to be strongly disliked and mocked.




epiphiny43 -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/7/2012 2:52:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43

Knee and hip replacements are done to restore function.



This is the exact same reason that gender reassignment therapy and SRS gender reassignment surgery is made available to the transgendered.

GID is a genetic defect in some ways similar to Down's Syndrome. However unlike Down's Syndrome there are no physical symptoms, unlike Down's Syndrome it does not affect someone's appearance, unlike Down's Syndrome it's not something which can be tested for.

Someone with GID identifies themselves as being of a different gender to their physical gender and as a result feels that they are not that physical gender and are unable to be themselves or function as themselves on any level as that gender.

Unlike with any other medical condition society generally forces you to either have to constantly prove yourself as that other gender or to completely give up your sense of self and play along with being your physical gender and somehow come up with a new sense of self congruent with your physical gender - i.e. you have to become a new person.

Gender reassignment has got nothing to do with a man becoming a woman (or vice versa). This is not possible. Gender reassignment is all about developing the gender identity of the person who is transgendered so that they can be on a par with everybody else in society, enjoy a sense of self which is congruent psychologically, emotionally and physically so that they can function on a par with everyone else in society.

Part of having a sense of self is having a body or appearance which you feel belongs to you. So okay, you may be a bit disappointed that your breasts are too large or too small, or your penis isn't the right shape, but generally speaking if you're cisgendered (i.e. not transgendered) the chances are is that you have a body which you're generally happy with and which confirms your gender identity.

The transgendered don't have this, and the whole idea of gender reassignment and transitioning is that they can end up with a body so that they can have a sense of self and be able to function in society just like everyone else.

Therefore SRS reassignment surgery isn't 'cosmetic' surgery, but like the hormones and the therapy something which is medically necessary for the transgendered to have that sense of self and be able to function in society on a par with everyone else.

Being referred to as or thought of as a gender other than the one you are is something that most people would find offensive. So why then does the same thing become acceptable when the person in question is transgendered?

It also has to be said that if a judge can rule that a convicted murderer is eligible for SRS gender reassignment surgery, then surely just as easily a judge can issue a ruling on gender acquisition and gender recognition, it can become law. If the transgendered were to be legally recognized as being their acquired gender prior to surgery when they are receiving gender reassignment therapy and hormones then rulings such as this for Kosilek would not be an issue.



Not quite as advertised. SOME diagnosed as GID have specific sexual genetic inconsistencies with typical adults. (Few 'genetic inconsistencies' are limited to sexual physiology or hormone profiles. which probably helps explain the depth of the disphoria of many and the lack of success of hormone and surgical treatment.) A lot of other reasons are known for diagnosis with the Construct of GID. Constructs are useful ideas or labels, not real descriptions of reality. Not knowing the difference leads to a world of mischief. (See: Dominance by Susan Friedman) Childhood onset of gender disphoria is quite different from adolescent and early adult onset. That the subject married as a male and later(?) 'found it essential to his survival' to be gender reassigned seems likely to place him in the more psychological of etiologies rather than the genetic. These cases more closely resemble other body disphoria such as the eating disorders and other perception processing issues.
Though the above is a nice rephrasing of the current GLBT manifestos around, it has a few problems. For the law to recognize the subject as only within the male/female dichotomy, modern medicine has to be ignored as gender is Not the binary system English pretends but a continuum with a whole spectrum between two extremes. The Law has issues dealing with this, (And prison dorms) as do English and most Americans. And certainly the subject. Asking courts to recognize pre-treatment some nebulous idea the perps advance that they are actually inconsistent beings from their external genitalia or their cellular chromosomes might be unrealistic? Most of them are lucky to just get a competent defense lawyer?
More to the point, what was missed, blocked out or consciously ignored, was that 'gender reassignment' has a dismal record of actually Treating the problems though it does a fair to middling job of producing visually acceptable genitalia. With an astonishing record of unpleasant complications and 'poor outcomes' just physically. That the subject has so many behavioral issues (MURDER?) and psychological symptoms leads to considerable doubt as to the 'independent judgment' of the physician for even recommending the subject as a candidate. Suicidal self-mutilators (Or those who threaten such to obtain their goals) are not the ideal candidates for any serious hormone or plastic surgery procedures. Or even acceptable for most ethical practitioners.
This is a Bad case and exactly the kind that make for bad Law. One judge's pronouncement is hardly the Law, even in the jurisdiction it was issued. It has to be reviewed by higher courts and is always subject to legislative rewriting of the relevant statutes.

The idea womens prisons are much less violent I believe is now in the past. As the prison populations reflect the reality and inclusiveness of drugs and gang life in the economically depressed neighborhoods, all that culture is now moved into the womens prisons?




FatDomDaddy -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/7/2012 2:57:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Hib, I think you have a very good point. We're talking murder of this person's female spouse when, as a male, that person was stronger and overpowering. Those women aren't going to be all that accepting




You are missing the point.

He is a man, who by one of the worlds greatest con's is going to be moved from a male prison to a female prison and it will cost the taxpayers of Massachusetts and then the United States MILLIONS of dollars to make it all happen.

BUT that said... "all that accepting?"

Bull Shit again.

Women are far far more "accepting" in prison populations than in men's too. Anyway you slice it, his time will be much easier posing himself as a woman in a woman's prison




PeonForHer -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/7/2012 2:57:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

Therefore SRS reassignment surgery isn't 'cosmetic' surgery, but like the hormones and the therapy something which is medically necessary for the transgendered to have that sense of self and be able to function in society on a par with everyone else. x


I must admit that it's staggering to try to imagine what it must be like not to have that 'sense of self' that the rest of us take so much for granted.




tweakabelle -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/7/2012 3:05:32 AM)

quote:

The amount of hate I've seen in the lesbian community for transfolk is *tremendous*. Michelle is not going to be welcomed as 'one of us' by the prison population.


I can only speak for the situation here in Oz. While there is real hate towards trans women in the lesbian community, from what I've seen this hate is confined to one small and diminishing section of that community, specifically the lesbian separatist section.

In my observation, they speak only for themselves. This is a tiny but very vocal group whose relevance is questionable. While influential in the 70s, their ideology has had its day, been found inadequate and is regarded as a quaint historical footnote by most dykes and feminists. Time and progress have left them far behind, not only in the lesbian community but also in the broader feminist community. Most dykes and feminists I know view them with embarrassment, especially with their attitude towards TGs.

So I am far from convinced that trans women will be rejected by women in prisons - it is not something that I have ever heard happening here. I can add that for many years, one of the foremost campaigners for the rights of sex workers and women prisoners here was Roberta Perkins, herself a trans woman.




tweakabelle -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/7/2012 3:28:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy



Hate
is a strong word... but posers of any stripe tend to be strongly disliked and mocked.


Given the hateful nature of your posts on this thread, I'm not sure that hate is a subject you ought to hold forth about.

However, 'poser' is a term that can be properly applied to someone who pretends to know what they are talking about when in fact they know little or nothing. So there's no need for me to alert you to the probability that, according to your own logic, you can expect to be "strongly disliked and mocked".




LadyPact -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/7/2012 3:44:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy
You are missing the point.

He is a man, who by one of the worlds greatest con's is going to be moved from a male prison to a female prison and it will cost the taxpayers of Massachusetts and then the United States MILLIONS of dollars to make it all happen.

BUT that said... "all that accepting?"

Bull Shit again.

Women are far far more "accepting" in prison populations than in men's too. Anyway you slice it, his time will be much easier posing himself as a woman in a woman's prison


Have you got any idea of how many women in jail have a sincere grudge against abusive and/or manipulative men? That means there isn't just going to be the standard percentage of people who are going to see this person poorly because of being trans. Add to that the particulars of the crime and you will probably still have issues with a post op transsexual in general population.

In case you missed it, I really don't think the state of Massachusetts should be footing the bill. Not to further the treatment. I'm in agreement with allowing any transgendered person to still be continuing any hormone therapy they are already being prescribed by a physician at the time of their incarceration. That one is on the state like any other prescription for a prior illness. I did some research on this subject because I was interested and here is what I found.

quote:

Because housing and employment discrimination leave many transgender people with few income generating options, some turn to sex work or other criminalized activities. Transgender people may also be the target of harassment and selective prosecution by law enforcement. As a result, the transgender community tends to be overrepresented in the criminal justice system.

The first problem transgender people face upon incarceration is the segregation of prison facilities by gender. It is left to individual prison officials to decide with which sex a transgender inmate should be housed. More often than not, this decision is based on birth sex. For example, a male-to-female transsexual who has undergone hormone therapy and sex-reassignment surgery may nonetheless be placed with an all-male prison population.

Such misassignment can lead to the serious problem of hate violence against transgender inmates. Prisoners who do not conform to the gender norms of the prison’s population face the risk of verbal harassment, physical violence and sexual assault. Bias on the part of correctional officials can range from simply looking the other way to actively participating in attacks on transgender prisoners.

While many facilities segregate transgender inmates to protect them from violence, the separation may not provide sufficient security — and it may also impose unfair isolation and restrictions on transgender prisoners under the guise of safety.

Another significant problem faced especially by transsexual prisoners involves access to medical treatment. While most courts have found that hormone therapy must be continued at pre-incarceration levels, few correctional facilities will readily allow a transgender inmate to begin such therapy after he or she is imprisoned. Furthermore, no prison system currently allows inmates to undergo sexual reassignment surgery, which is critical to some transsexuals in successfully transitioning genders. Prison officials who may wish to provide adequate care for transgender patients can also face hostility from legislators and the public.


Of course, this was written before this ruling was made, so the part about no SRS ever done for an inmate will soon no longer be accurate. Here's the source: www.hrc.org/files/assets/resources/hrcTGguide.pdf

As to cost, the legal tab on this one alone must be astounding. I wonder what it has already cost the Department of Corrections over all of these years.




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