Are we Rome...destined for a big fall ? (Full Version)

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MrRodgers -> Are we Rome...destined for a big fall ? (9/5/2012 6:08:02 AM)

I have read or heard the following. If true, America is easily the most top heavy society with very possibly the greatest wealth and income disparity in world history. (no, we unlike Rome, govt. now doesn't sanction polygamy, slavery, prostitution and adultry)

The richest 1 % earned 93% of all income in 2011...so 99% earned only 7% of all income.

The richest 1% paid 30-32% of all taxes. (according to who you read) Still a great deal either way with 93% of the income and because the rest paid 70% of all taxes on their 7% of the income.

1/10 of 1% of our richest people (tax filers) or approximately 150,000 of our richest tax filers, enjoyed (were further enriched by) half (50%) of all capital gains and its 15% taxes rates.

That also means that 99.9% approx. 150 million middle class and poor tax filers, (1000X) enjoyed the other half of a 15% tax rate. I.e., almost none.

The richest 1% own over 50% of all stock meaning 99% own less that half of all stock. 5% of the middle class owns 1% of all stock. The bottom 40% of the poorest people, own NO stock at all. (UN 2006, 2% of the world population owned 50% (1/2) of the world's wealth)

Isn't America a slow burning Rome. At its hight of power, Rome had aproximately 50,000 out of a population of about 1 million people who actually had a real job. (there existed no Roman dept. of labor [as we know it] but it would have had to report that unemployment was 95%) and this was at the height of the Roman empire.

The rest were figuratively speaking...living in the dirt. That kind of poverty is the kind politicians can really use to their everylasting benefit and caused or at least precipitated the great Roman senate grain hand-out, openly bribing for votes. Did somebody say gas-tax holiday ?

So, is this America's fate ? Is it already upon us or if not...when ?




DesideriScuri -> RE: Are we Rome...destined for a big fall ? (9/5/2012 6:55:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
I have read or heard the following. If true, America is easily the most top heavy society with very possibly the greatest wealth and income disparity in world history. (no, we unlike Rome, govt. now doesn't sanction polygamy, slavery, prostitution and adultry)
The richest 1 % earned 93% of all income in 2011...so 99% earned only 7% of all income.
The richest 1% paid 30-32% of all taxes. (according to who you read) Still a great deal either way with 93% of the income and because the rest paid 70% of all taxes on their 7% of the income.
1/10 of 1% of our richest people (tax filers) or approximately 150,000 of our richest tax filers, enjoyed (were further enriched by) half (50%) of all capital gains and its 15% taxes rates.
That also means that 99.9% approx. 150 million middle class and poor tax filers, (1000X) enjoyed the other half of a 15% tax rate. I.e., almost none.
The richest 1% own over 50% of all stock meaning 99% own less that half of all stock. 5% of the middle class owns 1% of all stock. The bottom 40% of the poorest people, own NO stock at all. (UN 2006, 2% of the world population owned 50% (1/2) of the world's wealth)
Isn't America a slow burning Rome. At its hight of power, Rome had aproximately 50,000 out of a population of about 1 million people who actually had a real job. (there existed no Roman dept. of labor [as we know it] but it would have had to report that unemployment was 95%) and this was at the height of the Roman empire.
The rest were figuratively speaking...living in the dirt. That kind of poverty is the kind politicians can really use to their everylasting benefit and caused or at least precipitated the great Roman senate grain hand-out, openly bribing for votes. Did somebody say gas-tax holiday ?
So, is this America's fate ? Is it already upon us or if not...when ?


So what? It's not like the pie is completely limited. Those at the bottom can move up. Those at the top do move down. It isn't easy, but it can be done. But, think about it. Should it be easy? Should it entail a lot of work? Shouldn't a parent decide that his/her child(ren) have a better life than he/she had and work towards that? If one or both of your parents were successful, shouldn't that enrich your life, too?

Too many people want something for nothing, or for little. Kids seem to think that graduating college automatically puts them in line for making the kind of money their parent(s) make, ignoring that their parent(s) may have been at that job their entire life.




Aylee -> RE: Are we Rome...destined for a big fall ? (9/5/2012 7:07:06 AM)

One could argue that the Roman Empire never fell.




Extravagasm -> RE: Are we Rome...destined for a big fall ? (9/5/2012 7:35:34 AM)

ADVICE TO ALL HUMANS (not just the OP and repliers ) :

One's pet peeve, no matter what it is, did not cause the fall of the Roman Empire, nor is it leading to the destruction of society, nor to life as we know it. The universe is too complex for that. Even an antichrist couldn't topple it.
I know, this is such a bitter pill to swallow, isn't it ?




FirmhandKY -> RE: Are we Rome...destined for a big fall ? (9/5/2012 7:40:02 AM)

quote:

Are we Rome...destined for a big fall ?


No.

Firm




kdsub -> RE: Are we Rome...destined for a big fall ? (9/5/2012 8:35:39 AM)

I look at it this way…government really means nothing when it comes to power in the long run. All that counts is size…population…and availability of resources.

This current government along with its Constitution may decline…the states may break away into separate governing bodies… but eventually a new governing entity will emerge just as strong.

This is the way it has always been and will continue in the foreseeable future.

Butch




SpaceSpank -> RE: Are we Rome...destined for a big fall ? (9/5/2012 9:26:19 AM)

That's a bit of a crock. A person of moderate means will have an incredibly difficult time trying to just move into a solid middle class lifestyle. The lower your initial means, the less likely it becomes. That's why many success stories from poor families tend to be 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation success stories. They had no choice but to try for meager improvements and hope their children could build on it. A very, very minute fraction can pull themselves out of poverty and into major wealth in their own lifetime.

On the other hand, those born into wealth? They need to be idiots and squander it to drop out of the 1%. Are you going to tell me that Paris Hilton worked for her wealth? Would she be anywhere but a trailer park if she was born poor and had the same personality? "Old" money tends to become dynastic. The children have to do nothing but be born, not squander all the wealth, and let the money continue to grow. Yes, they can have very intelligent generations that do much more with the money and advance their wealth and status... but they also have generations that simply attend to the social expectations to some degree and literally let all their money do the work. Their accountants, investors, and other hired professionals ensure they make more than they spend.

Many lower class people work incredibly hard. Harder than I work, probably harder than you work, and certainly harder than a great many in the 1% work. But they will never move their lot in life. They will continue to work hard, worrying about affording food, clothing, shelter, and other necessities... and they will still hope help their children's future.

They will work that hard because it's the only thing they know. They didn't have the means, the skills, the help, or the information at the right time to improve the course of their own life. They didn't get to attend college, they probably had to drop out of high school, sometimes earlier. They didn't have parents with money to lend them, no trust funds, and no inheritances.
Banks would laugh at them for anything more than a high interest credit card, and they probably didn't have any friends or family that knew enough to even suggest other kinds of aide.
They may even earn just enough to no longer qualify for government assistance, or didn't even know they could. Sometimes it's just a matter of misplaced pride to not accept food stamps or other assistance programs.

All they know is they can work incredibly hard to keep their heads above water, so that is what they do... and they will often happily continue to do so with the hope they they will make enough to occasionally squirrel away something to help their children.

So comparing the ease of social movement between the two is insulting those who have been incredibly fortunate to actually make that move.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

So what? It's not like the pie is completely limited. Those at the bottom can move up. Those at the top do move down. It isn't easy, but it can be done. But, think about it. Should it be easy? Should it entail a lot of work? Shouldn't a parent decide that his/her child(ren) have a better life than he/she had and work towards that? If one or both of your parents were successful, shouldn't that enrich your life, too?

Too many people want something for nothing, or for little. Kids seem to think that graduating college automatically puts them in line for making the kind of money their parent(s) make, ignoring that their parent(s) may have been at that job their entire life.





Musicmystery -> RE: Are we Rome...destined for a big fall ? (9/5/2012 9:35:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

One could argue that the Roman Empire never fell.

One would be wrong.




MrRodgers -> RE: Are we Rome...destined for a big fall ? (9/5/2012 9:51:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extravagasm

ADVICE TO ALL HUMANS (not just the OP and repliers ) :

One's pet peeve, no matter what it is, did not cause the fall of the Roman Empire, nor is it leading to the destruction of society, nor to life as we know it. The universe is too complex for that. Even an antichrist couldn't topple it.
I know, this is such a bitter pill to swallow, isn't it ?

I am not sure at all what you mean by 'pet peeves' but the future of Rome became how much they could steal from their conquests. Required of them to afford the unabashed sexual and financial hedonism and obvious venality of Roman aristocracy. Sound familiar ?

The issue is, can America sustain its global reach and dominance indefinitely ? America is in financial gridlock, adding to its economic frailty by $millions per minute, has extended and will I think continue to extend its 'empire' and are precipitating that slow burn.

Can the poor and middle class continue to pay such a profit for all of that ? I don't think so.

However, I am willing to read of such complexities of the universe and how they either cause or prevent the fall of any society.

To slowly, too slowly indeed for most to see at all before it's too late...a society fall to the greed, avarice and power of the few will be indeed for the next few distant future generations...a bitter pill to swallow.




mnottertail -> RE: Are we Rome...destined for a big fall ? (9/5/2012 9:54:19 AM)

Our defense budget greater than the next 17 combined.....nah, we can fiddle.




MrRodgers -> RE: Are we Rome...destined for a big fall ? (9/5/2012 9:58:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

One could argue that the Roman Empire never fell.

...now if I could just keep the govt. out of my books and off my whores and slaves.




Yachtie -> RE: Are we Rome...destined for a big fall ? (9/5/2012 11:01:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

One could argue that the Roman Empire never fell.

One would be wrong.



Not necessarily.




mnottertail -> RE: Are we Rome...destined for a big fall ? (9/5/2012 11:10:17 AM)

Can we compromise with a tiped the fuck over and disappeared?




joether -> RE: Are we Rome...destined for a big fall ? (9/5/2012 11:57:24 AM)

I always find it curious of how people allow themselves to de-evolve from an intelligent young adult into a near completely ignorant middle or late age adult. That they blame the US Goverment for a whirlwind of problems, but keep voting for the same Republican folks that created a number of the problems to begin with. Case in point, are a number of Republicans yesterday and today stating the 'Debt Clock' hit $16 Trillion. They pointed out that means every man, woman, and child within the USA owes $50,000 of that debt. Yet, they cant (nor will they ever) admit, due to their actions, words, and even larger, inactions, are responsible for $38,000 of that $50,000. If folks where to hold the Republican Party to even a billionth of the accountibility and responsibility that they slam the Democrats on an hourly basis, we'd have a better nation practically over night.

When I heard the RNC ask "Are you better now than four years ago", the answer is 'Hellya!'. This time four years ago, the nation was going down faster than the Titanic, by an administration that didnt have enough sense to fully grasp that their actions and inactions have some pretty heafty consequences. The GOP's candiate, Sen. McCain was nearly focus on 'military, defense, and terrorism' to notice the financial and economic meltdown taking place all around him. Resulting in Americans voting largely Democrat. In 2010, those same independents were mad at the President and Democrats in Congress for not repairing the economy quick enough, so they voted in a pile of useless Republicans. Nearly two years later, I believe a good chunk of them are regretting that incredibly short-sighted idea with a Congress that is not only in 'lame duck' mode, but being in total gridlock. The credit rating of the country got downgraded last year largely due to Republicans not wishing 'to do what is in the best interests of the nation'. Doing the right thing is not always the easiest or popular idea.

Last week, there really wasnt alot of stable information coming from the RNC tent to state how Mr. Romney, his sidekick, or the whole of the GOP will combat the problems facing this nation. With stable information, I'm implying data from reliable sources, knowledgable folks whom hold themselves to a higher level of responsibility than their opponents, and a strategy for dealing with a Congress that appears will stay in 'gridlock' should Mr. Romney win the election. Yet, this week, I suspect the Democrats will be talking about that. In fact, I could place fair money that the President will talk about it directly in his speech this week.

Many folks have given their input and speculation as to 'Why the Roman Empire fell'. Its ranged from 'Acts of God', to 'The Economy Stupid', to even 'Left hand didnt know what the right foot was doing'. People will bring forth as much information and supporting material to prove their arguement is the only valid option. But we are not talking about events that took place well over fifteen hundred years ago, but of events within the last twelve years! The number of Americans that are just plain....ignorant....on events across the board in the last set of years is both bewildering and dispairly. If you can not take ownership of whom you vote into office. Whether it be local, state or even federal. Than you are even more at fault for the events that have befell this nation in that timeline. You, the voter, is ultimately responsible for what takes place in this nation. Throwing your hands up, not being involved, ignoring what the bills actually state that past through Congress, and distrusting the goverment made up entirely of US Citizens, is simply saying your not adult enough to weild those awesome powers of a US Citizen.

Those that vote Democrat could take ownership of the $12,000 created of debt under the Obama administration (if those that vote Republican take the other $38,000 they help create). I also know the events from his start to present have been very difficult on the nation as a whole. And that Republicans have done anything and everything to undermine any and all efforts to get the nation back into a bull market quickly and safely. I understand the economics and financial systems within the markets and goverment of the nation when the 'American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009' was introduced. And it produced many of the positive results the creators of it were hoping to achieve, even with total Republican opposition! Yet it was unpoular and not an easy pill to swallow; it had the addition effect of being poorly understood.

This poor knowledge, created by a group of people that wished to undermine the US Goverment and the nation as a whole, for whatever aims they wanted to achieve. In using their misinformation machine, they achieved a detonation far greater than they had thought possible. They convince whole groups of people across this great nation of total lies and half truths meant to undermine the nation's well being. The Roman Empire had many enemies, some of whole were well within its borders, that tried anything and everything to destroy it. This was one of several reasons why it eventually failed. Not to mention a population that didnt know much facts but believed all the lies were absolute truths without checking the information for accuracy or reliablity.

Unlike the world the Republicans envision for this nation's current situation, things have gotten better since four years ago. We are not nor ever was in a economic depression. The debt has slowed in its climb, compared to the speed created by the former administration. Job growth is growing, however, its painfully slow. But the Dow Jones Average, a leading economic indicator of the times, has gone from a low 6500 points when Obama took office to over 13,000 at present. Not only that, but tens of millions of senior Americans are now paying...less...for medical costs than four years ago (even though prices are higher). 30+ million Americans have access to medical plans than they did four years ago. Businesses are growing in number and size according to several agencies (i.e. the SBA) and the CBO. All of this with total opposition by the Republican Party.

You want the nation to fail? Vote Republican in November! You want it to get better? Vote Democrat. It really is that simple!




Yachtie -> RE: Are we Rome...destined for a big fall ? (9/5/2012 1:04:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Can we compromise with a tiped the fuck over and disappeared?


If the Empire was just a matter of geography.




mnottertail -> RE: Are we Rome...destined for a big fall ? (9/5/2012 1:32:25 PM)

what else existed?  The cohort have marched into the sunset, Julius Caesar is no deader than the rest of the Tsars, and the toga party has not been in vogue since Animal House.  




Yachtie -> RE: Are we Rome...destined for a big fall ? (9/5/2012 2:14:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

what else existed?  The cohort have marched into the sunset, Julius Caesar is no deader than the rest of the Tsars, and the toga party has not been in vogue since Animal House.  



Alter you perspective slightly.

Julius Caesar acquired the title Pontifex Maximus. Republic subsumed into Empire.

The Pontifex Maximus was the highest pontifex or priest in ancient Rome -- like the modern Pope. Also like the Pope, once in office, the appointee held his position for life.

This title was originally of the pagan worshiping. Emperor Gratian later titled it to Pope Damasus I. The first Pope to ever hold that Title.

Of course Christ didn't appoint Peter to be the Pontifex Maximus. And of course the early Church Fathers spoke of the Pontifex Maximus in such derogatory, paganistic ways. Because when the early Fathers were writing, the Pontifex Maximus was the head of the Roman pagan religion, and the Roman Empire itself was pagan. As any student of Roman history knows, the Pontifex Maximus was an imperial office, usually held by the Emperor himself, which made one the "chief priest" of the Roman "state cult."

The Pope is Pontifex Maximus. A/K/A Bishop of Rome. With the death of the physical Empire it was eventually subsumed into the (Holy) Roman Catholic Church.

The Connection to what would later be known as the Holy Roman Empire -

The Holy Roman Empire explicitly proclaimed itself to be the successor of the Western Roman Empire under the doctrine of translatio imperii.[5] In 962 Otto I was crowned Holy Roman Emperor (German: Römisch-Deutscher Kaiser), although the Roman imperial title was first restored to Charlemagne by the Pope in 800.

Do the math.






mnottertail -> RE: Are we Rome...destined for a big fall ? (9/5/2012 2:22:43 PM)

Yup, don't add up.  Fucker is gone in toto. 




Musicmystery -> RE: Are we Rome...destined for a big fall ? (9/5/2012 2:23:01 PM)

The stupidest conversations happen on this board.

The Roman Empire survived in some form or another for two millennium. Damn remarkable.

But the Holy Roman Empire is gone, Napoleon is gone, all good things come to an end.

And yes, geography is generally how these things work. That's why we name empires for where they are.

But whatever floats your boat. You wanna see Rome still an Empire, you go girl.




mnottertail -> RE: Are we Rome...destined for a big fall ? (9/5/2012 2:36:42 PM)

It exists inside the vatican walls of the unquiet minds.

/s/ Abdul Abar Abar Bar Har, Izzat of the bloody Raj
/s/ Bennie Netanyahu, Israel
/s/ Mohammed Zook, Kafiristan 
/s/ Hippolite Shinozzski, area raconteur   




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