Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

First Amendment, Hate Speech and Other Countries' Approaches


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> First Amendment, Hate Speech and Other Countries' Approaches Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
First Amendment, Hate Speech and Other Countries' Appro... - 9/17/2012 4:33:13 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline 		Hate speech is protected under the U.S. Constitution. However not all countries approach hate speech the same way. I cite, for example only,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech

just to give some sense of how different countries have approached this issue.

I learned something new today: In Egypt, insulting any of the three Abrahamic religions is a crime. So, for example, the person who imported copies of "The Da Vinci Code" into Egypt was prosecuted under this law. Christians in many parts of the world took issue with "The Da Vinci Code" as being an affront to traditional Christianity and Jesus. Jordan, Lebanon, and other Arab countries also banned both the book and the film (because they did not want to offend Christian people in those countries even though it is not clear to me that such speech is illegal in those countries).

It seems that some of the Middle Eastern nations do approach the issue of hate speech very differently from the way that we do. When I read the above, about The Da Vinci Code (as laughable as it is to me personally that such a book/film would be banned) it does put a different perspective on how some of these countries approach other hateful speech. It seems like we are dealing with countries where insulting a certain range of religions is not permissible.

I am an American who is a full supporter of the First Amendment. And ultimately, for any country, I feel maximum support for free speech is a necessary pre-cursor to a true democratic country. But I do think we have to be mindful that not all countries approach hate speech the same way. For example, in many countries in Europe you cannot deny the Holocaust occurred, even though in the U.S. that would be protected speech.

I don't have any question here, as much as I just wanted to share this information, as the Egyptian approach was new information for me. I had no idea they treated all the Abrahamic religions equally when it came to hate speech.



_____________________________

~ ftp
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: First Amendment, Hate Speech and Other Countries' A... - 9/17/2012 5:14:16 PM   
erieangel


Posts: 2237
Joined: 6/19/2011
Status: offline 		Interesting. Kinda puts the riots into a different perspective.


(in reply to fucktoyprincess)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: First Amendment, Hate Speech and Other Countries' A... - 9/17/2012 5:22:42 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		You're coming uncomfortably close to saying that, in some way, the political systems of some other countries are more civilised than that of the USA, FTP. And those of non-Christian-based countries, to boot. It's waterboarding at Guantanomo Bay for you, I have to say.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to fucktoyprincess)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: First Amendment, Hate Speech and Other Countries' A... - 9/17/2012 5:53:44 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

Interesting. Kinda puts the riots into a different perspective.





How so?

And more in general reply, what about other religions? Can they talk shit about the beliefs of casual Deists, with a taste for Pagan sacramental substances? Buddhists? Is it completely okay to advocate wiping out the Jews, as long as they don't insult Moses?


< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 9/17/2012 5:54:14 PM >

(in reply to erieangel)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: First Amendment, Hate Speech and Other Countries' A... - 9/17/2012 6:17:05 PM   
SadistDave


Posts: 801
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		It's convenient that they get to choose what they believe is hate speech. In Egypt, it wasn't considered hate speech to state they would wipe the Jews off the face of the Earth. On the other hand, it's considered hate speech to remind people that the Prophet Mohammed (piss be upon him) was a pedophile who married a 6 year old girl and had sex with her at age 9, in spite of the fact that this is actually in their "holy" book. I think her name was Aisha...

-SD-

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: First Amendment, Hate Speech and Other Countries' A... - 9/17/2012 6:21:39 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

You're coming uncomfortably close to saying that, in some way, the political systems of some other countries are more civilised than that of the USA, FTP. And those of non-Christian-based countries, to boot. It's waterboarding at Guantanomo Bay for you, I have to say.


Uh, did you read what I wrote

quote:

I am an American who is a full supporter of the First Amendment. And ultimately, for any country, I feel maximum support for free speech is a necessary pre-cursor to a true democratic country.


To be honest, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or serious in your comment. Sorry if I'm misunderstanding. It's been a long day.

_____________________________

~ ftp

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: First Amendment, Hate Speech and Other Countries' A... - 9/17/2012 6:31:10 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

Interesting. Kinda puts the riots into a different perspective.





How so?

And more in general reply, what about other religions? Can they talk shit about the beliefs of casual Deists, with a taste for Pagan sacramental substances? Buddhists? Is it completely okay to advocate wiping out the Jews, as long as they don't insult Moses?



My pointing out the Egyptian law is not to take a position on what the freedom of speech ought to mean. I'm quite clear in my original post about my stand on that. And for the record, my heritage is from a non-Abrahamic religion - the Abrahamic religions being Jewish, Christian and Islam. I am simply trying to point out that in some of these countries their idea of "insulting religion" is broader than what we, as Americans, might have originally understood. I never would have guessed they would have included any religion other than Islam. I'm just saying our understanding of what is happening their needs to reflect a greater understanding of how people, even Egyptian Christians, think.

As someone from a so-called pagan religion, Hinduism, I don't know too many places outside of India where my religion is not insulted, and that certainly includes the U.S. Again, my point is not about what religions it is acceptable to insult. I am raising a different point entirely.

Again, let me remind you that in the U.S. all this speech is protected. Someone can insult Hindu gods, or claim the Holocaust never occurred. And I support the U.S. notion of free speech. But our notion of free speech is not what is operating in other countries. And what exists in other countries is not necessarily as narrow as I might have first thought. Again, I would have assumed most Islamic countries would only have prohibited insulting their own religion. The Egyptian law did come as a surprise to me for being broader than that.




_____________________________

~ ftp

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: First Amendment, Hate Speech and Other Countries' A... - 9/17/2012 6:38:41 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

It's convenient that they get to choose what they believe is hate speech. In Egypt, it wasn't considered hate speech to state they would wipe the Jews off the face of the Earth. On the other hand, it's considered hate speech to remind people that the Prophet Mohammed (piss be upon him) was a pedophile who married a 6 year old girl and had sex with her at age 9, in spite of the fact that this is actually in their "holy" book. I think her name was Aisha...

-SD-



And your point is?? Where on the face of the planet do people NOT get to choose what they believe is hate speech. Every country has their own definition of this term. That is the information I am trying to share. And Egypt's law is about "insulting" Abrahamic religions - not about threatening political entities. Again, even the Orthodox Jews do not believe in the state of Israel, but they are still Jewish.

And again, whether normatively we believe free speech should mean no exclusions for hate speech, it certainly does not mean that there is nothing to gain from understanding what the laws are in different countries and how they are enforced. It tells us something about the expectations that people have about certain things. Something that from a policy perspective can help inform us on how to handle certain situations.

Those who prefer to operate from ignorance, go ahead. But this makes one no different from the Islamic terrorists and the people who blindly follow them. Ignorance, particularly when combined with hate, is not going to get any of us anywhere.

_____________________________

~ ftp

(in reply to SadistDave)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: First Amendment, Hate Speech and Other Countries' A... - 9/17/2012 8:08:53 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

The Egyptian law did come as a surprise to me for being broader than that.



Then I'm glad you learned something new. It makes complete sense that all three Abrahamic religions would be protected, at least in theory, because they are part of the Islamic worldview. Moses and Jesus are both players in their big picture. What you should see is the intolerance institutionalized in such a law, for faiths that don't fit their picture.

I'm a free speech kind of guy. I find regulation of "hate speech," an abomination, be it in the lands of the middle east, or in allegedly free and civilized countries.

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: First Amendment, Hate Speech and Other Countries' A... - 9/18/2012 5:41:41 AM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

The Egyptian law did come as a surprise to me for being broader than that.



Then I'm glad you learned something new. It makes complete sense that all three Abrahamic religions would be protected, at least in theory, because they are part of the Islamic worldview. Moses and Jesus are both players in their big picture. What you should see is the intolerance institutionalized in such a law, for faiths that don't fit their picture.

I'm a free speech kind of guy. I find regulation of "hate speech," an abomination, be it in the lands of the middle east, or in allegedly free and civilized countries.


Well as someone who lives in the U.S., I don't find Americans particularly welcoming of people of non-Christian or non-Jewish background. This is still very much a Judeo-Christian country, and there is a lot of misunderstanding and misperception about religions outside of the Abrahamic religions even here. I would not translate the free speech laws that we have here as creating greater open-mindedness about other religions. I speak as someone who knows.

So I do still find it interesting that an Islamic country would treat any religion similarly - even if theologically the roots are similar. After all, having similar theological roots has not spared Jewish people persecution at the hands of Christians.

The fact remains that many of those countries banned a movie that they felt was insulting to Christians. If you don't think that is interesting, that's your prerogative.


_____________________________

~ ftp

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: First Amendment, Hate Speech and Other Countries' A... - 9/18/2012 7:48:13 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		In the part of Australia I live in - Sydney - over 140 languages are spoken in homes in Sydney, just one indicator of how diverse the population is, of how multicultural we are.

We have found it useful to place certain limits on free speech in order to maintain social harmony. For example, it is illegal to vilify people because of their religion, homosexuality or transgender status, or ethnicity. It is also illegal to incite hatred or violence.

I don't think that this inhibits the free expression or exchange of ideas at all. It is not unreasonable to insist that, if one wishes to express a view on any social/political issue, one does so respectfully. Those who might view this limit on their speech negatively are usually those who are abusing the space others allow for the free expression/exchange of ideas to promote hate and violence. This is different to the US approach, though I note that US laws now prohibit "support of terrorism". Even in the US, free speech is not without limits.

I might add that prosecutions under these laws are very rare. Off the top of my head, I can only think of one instance in the last decade, though it is possible that there may have been more. I have never heard any one argue that there are problems around the issue of free speech, except those bigots who were prosecuted for their hate speech.

The point is that there are a variety of ways of dealing with the issues raised in the OP, and what works in one country or culture might not be best suited to another. The US model is not universally applicable.

_____________________________



(in reply to fucktoyprincess)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: First Amendment, Hate Speech and Other Countries' A... - 9/18/2012 8:01:26 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

It's convenient that they get to choose what they believe is hate speech. In Egypt, it wasn't considered hate speech to state they would wipe the Jews off the face of the Earth. On the other hand, it's considered hate speech to remind people that the Prophet Mohammed (piss be upon him) was a pedophile who married a 6 year old girl and had sex with her at age 9, in spite of the fact that this is actually in their "holy" book. I think her name was Aisha...

-SD-



Well, nobody is going around making a film on Hosea marrying a whore or Jesus probably being bi but mostly homosexual and hanging with a whore, everybody has him at immaculate conception and didnt fuck.  Sort of solves the sex problem if he is a ken doll.

Nobody is running an expose on Noah putting the stumps to his daughters in a threesome or Abram having a whore on the side. 

I dunno.  Kill all purveyors of religion. That would be least offensive to me anyhow. 

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 9/18/2012 8:02:49 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to SadistDave)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: First Amendment, Hate Speech and Other Countries' A... - 9/18/2012 8:13:18 AM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

It's convenient that they get to choose what they believe is hate speech. In Egypt, it wasn't considered hate speech to state they would wipe the Jews off the face of the Earth. On the other hand, it's considered hate speech to remind people that the Prophet Mohammed (piss be upon him) was a pedophile who married a 6 year old girl and had sex with her at age 9, in spite of the fact that this is actually in their "holy" book. I think her name was Aisha...

-SD-



Well, nobody is going around making a film on Hosea marrying a whore or Jesus probably being bi but mostly homosexual and hanging with a whore, everybody has him at immaculate conception and didnt fuck.  Sort of solves the sex problem if he is a ken doll.

Nobody is running an expose on Noah putting the stumps to his daughters in a threesome or Abram having a whore on the side. 

I dunno.  Kill all purveyors of religion. That would be least offensive to me anyhow. 

mnottertail, you raise a very important point. If we actually go into the text of any religion (I challenge anyone to say otherwise), you will find a lot of things that do not sit well with contemporary culture. The Old Testament is full of rape, incest, misogyny, etc. to cite just one example. So I don't see that there is a lot of usefulness to be gained by poking fun of religions at this level. Anyone who thinks their religion makes complete sense, but the religion of all other peoples is "stupid" and "silly" is not being honest with themselves.

People, sadly, "need" their religion. Those of us who don't, have to try to live with those who do. And in the end, trying to find some balance between respect and independence (for both believers of different religions and non-believers as well) is going to be critical going forward if we don't want to descend into ever escalating religious wars.

We did earlier on these boards explore the issue of why people need religion and where this leaves all of us. Religion is not going to go away anytime soon. My fear is that if we are not careful we will exterminate each other long before religion dies out....


_____________________________

~ ftp

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: First Amendment, Hate Speech and Other Countries' A... - 9/18/2012 9:51:25 AM   
Winterapple


Posts: 1343
Joined: 8/19/2011
Status: offline 		The Egyptian law doesn't surprise me.
Christians and Jews are considered 'people
of the book' (the Koran) and Muslims
are instructed to respect them for that
reason. They see Islam as being handed
down from Abraham and evolving from
Judaism and Christianity. The law is more
about or at least as much about being
a good Muslim as anything. There is a
sizable population of Coptic Christians
in Egypt not as large as there once was
but they do exist and a have some
political clout. I don't imagine there's
any concern legally about the feelings
of people outside the book.

In the US we have the right to practice
the religion of our choice without being
persecuted for it and we are spared a
official state religion. Individual citizens
tolerances are individual.But no religion
has legal protection that another doesn't.

Free speech is a part of democracy it is
an alien concept to people who live in
a theocracy or a totalitarian state
Hate speech isn't always easy to define
in a democracy. But ridicule, satire
and criticism is covered by free speech.

_____________________________

A thousand dreams within me softly burn.
Rimbaud




(in reply to fucktoyprincess)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: First Amendment, Hate Speech and Other Countries' A... - 9/18/2012 9:58:54 AM   
Winterapple


Posts: 1343
Joined: 8/19/2011
Status: offline 		Interesting about the DaVinci Code as it's
central plot point is that Jesus and Mary
Magdalene were married and had a child.

The historical Mary Magdalene is thought
to have gone to Egypt after Jesus was killed
and spent the rest of her life there.
She is thought to be one of if not the
principle founder of Gnosticism.
She wasn't a prostitute that was tagged
on her by some pope. She was unlikely
married to Jesus or anyone else unless
she was a widow before she became a
disciple. She was a mystic and a disciple
not a whore or a wife.

_____________________________

A thousand dreams within me softly burn.
Rimbaud




(in reply to Winterapple)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: First Amendment, Hate Speech and Other Countries' A... - 9/18/2012 3:10:38 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
In the part of Australia I live in - Sydney - over 140 languages are spoken in homes in Sydney, just one indicator of how diverse the population is, of how multicultural we are.


Wow! That's incredible! Makes me wonder how many languages are spoken in large cities like New York, London, Paris, etc.

quote:


We have found it useful to place certain limits on free speech in order to maintain social harmony. For example, it is illegal to vilify people because of their religion, homosexuality or transgender status, or ethnicity. It is also illegal to incite hatred or violence.


What happens when what incites hatred or violence changes?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: First Amendment, Hate Speech and Other Countries' A... - 9/18/2012 5:17:28 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I'm a free speech kind of guy. I find regulation of "hate speech," an abomination, be it in the lands of the middle east, or in allegedly free and civilized countries.



As you know I feel the opposite on this, and here is why. In the UK hate speech is seen for what it is, speech used to incite hatred. Most here, both left and right, feel it is more civilised to take a stand and ban it, since it is an incitement to violence against minorities. To us, that makes the majority of people free, not just those spouting hate.

Of course, it may be your understanding of exactly what hate speech is, and causes, differs from that in Europe. I should also point out hate speech laws apply to all and there are several examples of Muslims gacing the court in the UK, not just the extreme right...... By that I mean neo-nazis.

The bigger blot on society, both sides of the Atlantic, is that people still think hate speech, using it not the protection of it, is okay. Other than that, I am fully with you on protecting free speech.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: First Amendment, Hate Speech and Other Countries' A... - 9/18/2012 5:19:26 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

What happens when what incites hatred or violence changes?



Care to give a valid example ?

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: First Amendment, Hate Speech and Other Countries' A... - 9/18/2012 5:20:53 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Wow! That's incredible! Makes me wonder how many languages are spoken in large cities like New York, London, Paris, etc.


Throughout its history New York City has been a major point of entry for immigrants; the term "melting pot" was coined to describe densely populated immigrant neighborhoods on the Lower East Side. As many as 200 languages are spoken in New York,[2] making it the second most linguistically diverse city in the world (after London, UK). English remains the most widely spoken language and New York is one of the largest cities in the English-speaking world, although there are areas of Queens and Brooklyn in which up to 20% of people speak English only a little or not at all. Neighborhoods such as Flushing, Sunset Park and Corona are the least English-speaking communities. ~Wiki


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: First Amendment, Hate Speech and Other Countries' A... - 9/18/2012 5:33:02 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		~FR~

Is freedom of speech absolute? Not according to John Stuart Mill.

In "On Liberty" (1859) John Stuart Mill argued that "...there ought to exist the fullest liberty of professing and discussing, as a matter of ethical conviction, any doctrine, however immoral it may be considered."[41] Mill argues that the fullest liberty of expression is required to push arguments to their logical limits, rather than the limits of social embarrassment. However, Mill also introduced what is known as the harm principle, in placing the following limitation on free expression: "the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."[41]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech#Limitations


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> First Amendment, Hate Speech and Other Countries' Approaches Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109