Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case Page: <<   < prev  51 52 [53] 54 55   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/14/2012 9:50:08 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
Wasnt on the ground? As far as I know, he was.

Fear for his life? That has yet to be proven.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 1041
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/14/2012 10:03:53 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
Here are a few more questions for you.

If Z was on the ground, over Trayvon's body, and from the photo of Trayvon, the grainy one, why are there no stains on Z's pants in this photo?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/17/george-zimmerman-photos_n_1526045.html#slide=990886

No stains on the back of his coat here

http://theobamacrat.com/2012/05/18/trayvon-martin-vs-george-zimmerman/

Lets not quibble over where these photos are located. They are readily available in many sites on the web.

Nor am I saying there wasnt. I am saying there doesnt appear to be any. Now, in a fight for your life with a lot of fear, wouldnt you try to get away? Being pressed into the ground by someone sitting on you should have left some kind of sigh that you were there on the back of his coat. Kneeling over a body to stretch his arms out to his sides should have left stains on his pants.

There are the things I am not seeing, which, if I were on that jury, I would be questioning.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 1042
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/14/2012 10:05:58 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Wasnt on the ground? As far as I know, he was.

Fear for his life? That has yet to be proven.


The burden is to prove that he wasn't in fear.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 1043
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/14/2012 10:06:43 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
Would not that have to be on him if that is his defense?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 1044
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/14/2012 10:08:52 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


If Z was on the ground, over Trayvon's body, and from the photo of Trayvon, the grainy one, why are there no stains on Z's pants in this photo?



There's no reason to assume there would have to be. An officer saw grass on the back of George's coat too, and it's undisputed that George was on his back, and it didn't get stained.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 1045
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/14/2012 10:10:33 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Would not that have to be on him if that is his defense?



No. The burden remains on the State to disprove the Defense's theory of self defense beyond a reasonable doubt. They cannot get a conviction without doing so.

< Message edited by Raiikun -- 10/14/2012 10:11:04 AM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 1046
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/14/2012 10:11:04 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
Kneeling in the grass, pushing against a body, rearranging that body, according to Z, and no stains?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 1047
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/14/2012 10:13:09 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Kneeling in the grass, pushing against a body, rearranging that body, according to Z, and no stains?


Yep. Pushing against a body would be pushing away from the ground FYI. It would have been more likely to have gotten stains on his coat, since he was on his back and had grass on it.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 1048
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/14/2012 10:15:27 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
And so far, still nothing has been brought up that disproves George being pinned to the ground trying to get away for the better part of a minute until he feared serious bodily injury and fired.

(Months of debating this and nobody has yet to do so, so don't feel bad. The evidence that disproves that simply does not exist within the released evidence.)

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 1049
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/14/2012 10:26:15 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Kneeling in the grass, pushing against a body, rearranging that body, according to Z, and no stains?


Yep. Pushing against a body would be pushing away from the ground FYI. It would have been more likely to have gotten stains on his coat, since he was on his back and had grass on it.




No, he was kneeling over Trayvon's body after the shooting, so it was told.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 1050
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/14/2012 10:27:56 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
Which doesn't refute anything.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 1051
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/14/2012 10:48:19 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
…a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

So if you claim your use of lethal force in self defense was justified, you will at least need to put forth evidence that the requirements of 776.012 were satisfied.

The Florida’s Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground law at Section 776.013 helps by providing, among other things:

(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and

(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:…


(Now, section 776.013 )

Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—

(This wasnt a case of home protection.)

So you can establish that your use of lethal force was justified, thus satisfying 776.012, if —

You can show that —

The person you used force against was, “…in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will…”; and

You, “…knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred….”
None of the exceptions in 776.013(2) apply.

And if you can do that, you don’t have to specifically establish that you believed, “…that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself….”

But note that you don’t get the presumption automatically. You need to show that the conditions that create the presumption exist. That might be easier than showing a fear of imminent death or great bodily harm, but you still must do some work to establish your claim of justification.

And in the law, any available presumption is rebuttable. That means that even though one may be entitled to the benefit of a presumption as to a certain fact, the other side may try to prove that fact is not actually true. So, for example, even if you might have been entitled to a presumption that you were reasonably in fear for your life, the prosecutor could put on evidence and try to show that under the particular circumstances, a reasonable person could not have been reasonably in fear for his life.


He doesnt qualify for immunity.

Based on these seminal Florida court decisions, if a defendant is charged with a crime (or, it would appear, sued) based on a use of force, and if the defendant claims justification as his defense, instead of raising self defense as an affirmative defense at trial —

The defendant would raise his defense in a motion to dismiss based on the immunity provided under 776.032; and
The court would hold an evidentiary hearing on the motion; and
The defendant at that hearing has the burden to prove by a preponderance of the evidence that each element required for legal justification has been satisfied.
Should the court deny the motion, it appears from certain language in Peterson that he would still be able to raise self defense as an affirmative defense at trial.



It’s not sufficient that one merely claims to have used force to defend himself or another. He will need to show that the elements constituting justification were satisfied. And every Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground law has conditions, in general similar to those under the Florida statute, that a defendant will need to show have been satisfied in order to be protected under those laws.

In one way Florida is unique. Under the most recent Florida case law, to establish a claim of self defense, the defendant will need to prove by a preponderance of the evidence to a judge the elements of self defense at an evidentiary hearing, rather than to a jury at a trial.


Now, that was all interesting. However, what happens now that Z is no longer claiming "Stand your ground" defense?

Here is what I find....

A stand-your-ground law states that a person may justifiably use force in self-defense when there is reasonable belief of an unlawful threat, without an obligation to retreat first.

Now, why would O'Mara drop that as a defense and does it change the case if he is claiming self defense only in Florida?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 1052
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/14/2012 10:49:50 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

Which doesn't refute anything.


Nor does it support the telling of events.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 1053
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/14/2012 11:12:15 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Now, why would O'Mara drop that as a defense and does it change the case if he is claiming self defense only in Florida?



O'Mara said back in April that he thinks the SYG statute is an "absurd" statute, then recently at the press conference he stated that he thinks it's misleading, when the facts of the case suggest that George didn't have the opportunity to "stand his ground" seeing as he was on his back etc.

Really though, SYG only adds the "no duty to retreat" component to self defense. It doesn't change the Defense strategy any really beyond trying to disassociate it with the controversy that arose about it.

And to get a conviction of course, the burden is still entirely on the State to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that George's use of force was not in self defense.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 1054
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/14/2012 11:13:16 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

Which doesn't refute anything.


Nor does it support the telling of events.


The burden of proof isn't on the Defense to avoid a conviction. It's entirely on the State.
So anything that neither refutes nor supports the Defense is a point for the Defense.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 1055
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/14/2012 4:19:45 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Wasnt on the ground? As far as I know, he was.

Fear for his life? That has yet to be proven.

It doesn't have to be proven the prosecution has to disprove it.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 1056
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/14/2012 4:30:06 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Really though, SYG only adds the "no duty to retreat" component to self defense.


Uh huh

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 1057
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/14/2012 7:28:29 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
The 'reasonable doubt' is that the injury was in any way actually threatening, and that George ( once again that evening ) overreacted, but instead of just acting like a total douchebag this time, his overreaction ended up killing an innocent kid.

That's the key here. GEORGES PERCEPTIONS AREN'T REASONABLE.

What is the root cause of George's unreasonable beliefs? Who cares? It's GEORGE'S RESPONSIBILITY to ensure the medicine he's taking doesn't make him dangerous to the public or whatever. Maybe George isn't guilty due to insanity? FWIW, if I was O'Mara, ( given George's lack of candor with him ) I'd wonder if that's not a better strategy.



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 10/14/2012 7:30:48 PM >


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 1058
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/14/2012 8:03:49 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
That's the key here. GEORGES PERCEPTIONS AREN'T REASONABLE.

Maybe you are right in that. So what? There is such a thing as unreasonable fear. People in a panic do not reason; instead they act instinctively in order to save their lives. If Zimmerman acted instinctively to save his life, then the self defense claim is valid and he goes free. Whereas if he acted reasonably and had reason to fear for his life or serious physical injury, he also goes free.

Please stop projecting yourself onto Zimmerman. He is not you. Holding him to your standards is unreasonable. Thus: I do not know whether or not Zimmerman is unreasonable, but it seems to me that you have proven yourself to be unreasonable.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 1059
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/14/2012 8:07:20 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
And in the law, any available presumption is rebuttable. That means that even though one may be entitled to the benefit of a presumption as to a certain fact, the other side may try to prove that fact is not actually true. So, for example, even if you might have been entitled to a presumption that you were reasonably in fear for your life, the prosecutor could put on evidence and try to show that under the particular circumstances, a reasonable person could not have been reasonably in fear for his life.



_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 1060
Page:   <<   < prev  51 52 [53] 54 55   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case Page: <<   < prev  51 52 [53] 54 55   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109