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RE: So who's a terrorist now ..... ? - 9/28/2012 1:12:31 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

People who studied the man and the entirety of his life say that. One of his prime complaints against the House of Saud was that they were too western. He had also complained quite a lot about the presence of women amongst our troops in SA. All in all it seems clear his hatred of the west boiled down to pluralism.

I am unsure as to why you think other people are right and OBL himself isnt. Surely OBLs own reasoning, clearly and widely expressed, takes precedent over the views of those who have "studied" him ?

Did you read Vincent's post? His own words show his hatred of pluralism.

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RE: So who's a terrorist now ..... ? - 9/28/2012 4:53:52 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Did you read Vincent's post? His own words show his hatred of pluralism.

Indeed I did.....Did you note it was dated october 2002, hardly prior to 9/11.

I am unsure of your reasons to overlook OBLs own words regards 9/11.

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RE: So who's a terrorist now ..... ? - 9/28/2012 5:30:41 PM

KarlAldenTyrell

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IMO, the main stream media is propaganda and disinformation, specially with anything remotely close to war or to a country thats targeted for an upcoming military operation or covert coup or US backed civil war. Its been this way for over a century, as can be understood with a number of books such as "War is a Racket" by Smedley Butler.

If the factions within the US establishment want to invade Monaco, by the time the bombs are ready to drop, you(or many americans), will be saying "Its about time we bombed Monaco".

Of course, theres many instances when scores of people are killed without even being a blip on the media radar, such as when US backed terrorists/death squads/guerrillas do the job instead. Or when its "just" the indirect result of economic sanctions, such as those that lead to the death of thousands of children in Iraq under the Clinton presidency.

(this was intended as a reply to the OP)

< Message edited by KarlAldenTyrell -- 9/28/2012 6:20:56 PM >

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RE: So who's a terrorist now ..... ? - 9/28/2012 5:36:50 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Did you read Vincent's post? His own words show his hatred of pluralism.

Indeed I did.....Did you note it was dated october 2002, hardly prior to 9/11.

I am unsure of your reasons to overlook OBLs own words regards 9/11.

Polite, I agree with you that OBL was mostly enraged by the presence of American troops in the ME. That is your position right? But he also championed an Islamic purity so the fact that the letter was written in 2002 doesn't mean he hadn't formulated his views earlier.

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RE: So who's a terrorist now ..... ? - 9/28/2012 5:44:57 PM

vincentML

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quote:

IMO, the main stream media is propaganda and disinformation, specially with anything remotely close to war or to a country thats targeted for an upcoming military operation or covert coup or US backed civil war. Its been this way for over a century, as can be understood with a number of books such as "War is a Racket" by Smedley Butler.

You are disturbing the ghosts of William Herst and Joseph Pulitzer.
But haven't there been some journalists who recorded the unvarnished truth as they saw it regardless of the consequences? Yeh, I can't name any either . . although I have started reading Robert Fisk. So, maybe.

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RE: So who's a terrorist now ..... ? - 9/28/2012 7:54:06 PM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
How do you know that that was not the design of the program?

I believe it is faith that Democrats don't truly want to destroy the country. I know, call me crazy, but if they destroy the country, they are still destroying their]/b] country, and I'm thinking everyone in DC is selfish enough to not want to do that.

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RE: So who's a terrorist now ..... ? - 9/28/2012 9:26:56 PM

SpanishMatMaster

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Just a hint.

I think that any account on why do wahabists, salafists and other Moslem extremists hate the USA is incomplete without mentioning the behaviour of the USA towards Israel. No matter if you agree with this behaviour or not, I am not talking about guilt, I am talking about cause.

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RE: So who's a terrorist now ..... ? - 9/28/2012 11:08:12 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KarlAldenTyrell

IMO, the main stream media is propaganda and disinformation, specially with anything remotely close to war or to a country thats targeted for an upcoming military operation or covert coup or US backed civil war. Its been this way for over a century, as can be understood with a number of books such as "War is a Racket" by Smedley Butler.

If the factions within the US establishment want to invade Monaco, by the time the bombs are ready to drop, you(or many americans), will be saying "Its about time we bombed Monaco".

Of course, theres many instances when scores of people are killed without even being a blip on the media radar, such as when US backed terrorists/death squads/guerrillas do the job instead. Or when its "just" the indirect result of economic sanctions, such as those that lead to the death of thousands of children in Iraq under the Clinton presidency.

(this was intended as a reply to the OP)

Thank you for your response.

The NYU/Stanford study detailed a series of tactics that sound like they are straight out of Terrorism 101 - bombings of civilians, targeted assassinations, double-taps (missile attacks on a site aimed at the rescuers), bombings of funerals and community gatherings and so on.

Most people have no difficulty understanding the terror Israelis feel at rockets being fired into Israel from Gaza. (Gazans feel exactly the same terror from Israeli missile strikes.) From the report it would appear that the residents of NW Pakistan are experiencing precisely the same terror from drone attacks.

Importantly for Americans, Glenn Greenwald (writing in the Guardian) draws a direct connection between drone missile attacks and terrorist activity inside the US itself, using the case of the Times Square bomber. In the bomber's own words:
"'Well, the drone hits in Afghanistan and Iraq, they don't see children, they don't see anybody. They kill women, children, they kill everybody. It's a war, and in war, they kill people. They're killing all Muslims' . . . .

"'I am part of the answer to the U.S. terrorizing the Muslim nations and the Muslim people. And, on behalf of that, I'm avenging the attack. Living in the United States, Americans only care about their own people, but they don't care about the people elsewhere in the world when they die.'" http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/25/study-obama-drone-deaths
In other words, the drone missile terrorism practiced by the US in Pakistan is provoking domestic terrorism and endangering American lives in the homeland.

When one considers the study's findings, the question 'Why do they hate us?" seems almost facile - the answer is so glaringly obvious. The only surprising thing is that Americans are surprised by Muslims responding to US terrorism with their own terrorism.

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RE: So who's a terrorist now ..... ? - 9/29/2012 12:59:58 AM

tweakabelle

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"September 19, 2012 : I find myself caught between the need to follow the drone debate and the need to avoid unpleasant memories it stirs. I used drones – unmanned aerial vehicles – during the nadir of my military career that was an operational tour in Afghanistan. I remember cuing up a US Predator strike before deciding the computer screen wasn't depicting aTaliban insurgent burying an improvised explosive device in the road; rather, a child playing in the dirt"

This report, by an ex-British Army drone operator, offers some insights into the use of drones and their effects.

http://www.alternet.org/world/i-was-minutes-away-ordering-drone-strike-insurgent-until-i-realized-it-was-just-child-play?page=0%2C1&akid=9462.292804.IoCanU&rd=1&src=newsletter718206&t=19

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RE: So who's a terrorist now ..... ? - 9/29/2012 2:27:00 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
In other words, the drone missile terrorism practiced by the US in Pakistan is provoking domestic terrorism and endangering American lives in the homeland.
When one considers the study's findings, the question 'Why do they hate us?" seems almost facile - the answer is so glaringly obvious. The only surprising thing is that Americans are surprised by Muslims responding to US terrorism with their own terrorism.

I wouldn't call it "surprising" as much as I would call it "sad."

I was disturbed to find out that we knew why back in 2004, though no policy shifts were ever introduced (unless Obama's seeming lack of support, or mealy-mouthed support, is that shift; that would only be addressing part of the problem). When a politician (Ron Paul) brings it up, he's criticized and ostracized.

It's probably too glaringly obvious. It's like an "if it's that easy to see, it can't be correct" mentality.

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RE: So who's a terrorist now ..... ? - 9/29/2012 3:37:29 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Polite, I agree with you that OBL was mostly enraged by the presence of American troops in the ME. That is your position right? But he also championed an Islamic purity so the fact that the letter was written in 2002 doesn't mean he hadn't formulated his views earlier.

No doubt Vincent, but that wasnt my point. You and I both agree on what triggered OBL to attack the US on 9/11 and in the previous decade.

I am not suggesting views over his views on Islamic purity didnt form during this time, just that the main trigger was what he saw, rightly or wrongly, was Western invention in Muslim countries. Nothing I have ever read suggests OBL wanted to impose Islam in the west, and that was the reason for his attacks.

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RE: So who's a terrorist now ..... ? - 9/29/2012 6:29:31 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Polite, I agree with you that OBL was mostly enraged by the presence of American troops in the ME. That is your position right? But he also championed an Islamic purity so the fact that the letter was written in 2002 doesn't mean he hadn't formulated his views earlier.

No doubt Vincent, but that wasnt my point. You and I both agree on what triggered OBL to attack the US on 9/11 and in the previous decade.

I am not suggesting views over his views on Islamic purity didnt form during this time, just that the main trigger was what he saw, rightly or wrongly, was Western invention in Muslim countries. Nothing I have ever read suggests OBL wanted to impose Islam in the west, and that was the reason for his attacks.

I'm okay with that, Polite. Which raises the question: why don't the general citizenry of the USA and UK understand the fog of bullshit we have been handed? Well, our media mostly do not go down that road, do they?

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