RE: Israel

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ermood -> RE: Israel (10/2/2012 2:25:53 PM)
quote: Yes, ermood, if your views are as you present them above, I would take greater care in how you express these sentiments in English because the word "deny" as explained accurately by tweakabelle implies you do not think it happened at all. Just be careful, because I think your argument is a nuanced one that many on these boards would actually agree with. Let me put it this way then: I do not recognize the Holocoaust nor do i deny it;) quote: Genocide of peoples has been occurring since the beginning of time whether under the guise of "tribe", "religion", "ethnicity", you name it. And all genocide is inherently evil and wrong. And yes, I would disagree with anyone who somehow feels that any particular genocide is of greater evil than any other. And let us be reminded that some genocides in history were actually successful. There are some peoples who are no longer on the face of the planet, at all. Genocides will always be there... at least as long as the human race exists.. Humans are simply evil creaters walking on earth;)

Politesub53 -> RE: Israel (10/2/2012 3:57:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras I see what she was saying alright: an outright anti-Semite (e.g. "the "Jews" in Israel aren't Jews but just filty Zionists") was repeatedly advised on how best to conduct himself for the Palestinian cause, and BTW another appears to agree with what I was saying http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4255095 so it would seem your blindness is more than merely metaphorical. [:D] No Anax, you dont see anything, except as always, what you wish to see. And I dont care who appears to agree with you, you are wrong.

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Israel (10/2/2012 6:06:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie Desideriscuri makes an interesting opinion statement in "so who's a terrorist now" thread - I still maintain that Israel needs to be protected when attacked. Begs a question. If Israel is that Israel of Biblical prophecy, of what need has Israel of earthly big brother security? Of course there is the argument of what instrument(s) God might use. One could point out that as a people the Jews have existed and even thrived in many places throughout the world prior to Israel's creation. The Christian could point to prophecy and God's promise to Israel. But that begs just how God keeps his promise. What I find so interesting is Israel's existence at all. It's place as a focal point, even as to Jerusalem. And then of course, with Israel's fall, there's that other thing....the Apocalypse I think they called it. Dominoes.

vincentML -> RE: Israel (10/2/2012 8:35:54 PM)
quote: Would a single drum create a cacaphony? BTW some dispute Anaxagoras was the teacher of Pericles but "humble" is certainly the right word so it seems you are on the right track! [sm=lame.gif]

tweakabelle -> RE: Israel (10/2/2012 10:15:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie Desideriscuri makes an interesting opinion statement in "so who's a terrorist now" thread - I still maintain that Israel needs to be protected when attacked. Begs a question. If Israel is that Israel of Biblical prophecy, of what need has Israel of earthly big brother security? Of course there is the argument of what instrument(s) God might use. One could point out that as a people the Jews have existed and even thrived in many places throughout the world prior to Israel's creation. The Christian could point to prophecy and God's promise to Israel. But that begs just how God keeps his promise. What I find so interesting is Israel's existence at all. It's place as a focal point, even as to Jerusalem. And then of course, with Israel's fall, there's that other thing....the Apocalypse I think they called it. Dominoes. I might leave questions of Biblical prophecy to those who are interested in such matters, I'm far more interested in the practical side of this issue. To the best of my recollection, no one posting here has ever called for the destruction of Israel. I certainly haven't, nor do I have any desire to see Israel disappear. The question might better be put as : On what basis can Israel live in peace and harmony with its neighbours? The Palestinians have recognised the existence of Israel since at least 1993 (the Oslo Accords). Even Hamas has been hinting strongly that it can live with a Palestinian State based on the 1967 borders. It is self evident that if peace with the Palestinians is achieved, then all the other Arab/Muslim States will have no choice but to tag along. It would be ridiculous for a country like Iran to go to war on behalf of the Palestinians when the Palestinians have settled the matter with Israel. And, just in case, Israel is nuclear-armed, has the most effective technologically advanced Army in the region, and enjoys total supremacy in the air. A conventional military threat to Israel seems highly improbable. There is a peace deal on the table that secures recognition from all the Arab States in the region - if Israel wants it. The Arab League has offered Israel recognition and security from all Arab States in the region in exchange for a withdrawal to the 1967 borders and the establishment of a Palestinian State. Sadly Israel has ignored this proposal and shows little or no interest in serious, sincere negotiations with the Palestinians, choosing instead to complete its conquest of Occupied Palestine and discussing the complete or partial annexation of the West Bank, while simultaneously sabotaging any possiblity of an agreement by its policy of settling/colonising the West Bank. The level of settlement is such that the viability of the Two State solution is in serious doubt. Israel has installed 500,000+ settlers/colonists inside Occupied Palestine. Of these, up to 100,000 are fanatics, there for ideological reasons. (They believe that they were promised the land by God, and it would be quasi-blasphemous for them to surrender the land.) It's unlikely they will meekly surrender and move back to Israel should an agreement be reached. Does anyone seriously believe that Israel is prepared to repeat the trauma it experienced removing a mere 8,000 odd colonists from Gaza? A civil war is a far more probable outcome. The US is in a unique position to alter this situation positively - by exerting pressure on Israel to cease the settlements/colonies and negotiate seriously. Yet the US wastes time and political capital opposing Palestinian membership of the UN. It might be the case that the US deciding to support Palestinian UN membership will send the signal to Israel that it needs to seriously re-think its strategies, that the US is not prepared to underwrite Israeli intransigence and expansion indefinitely. If the US decides to go down this path, the pay off in terms of its image and reputation in the Arab/Muslim world will be enormous. For example it would remove one of the major causes of Islamist terrorism, isolate AQ and its allies totally, and strengthen the pro-democracy movements in the Arab countries - a rare case of a win-win option for the US in its dealings with the region

Anaxagoras -> RE: Israel (10/3/2012 12:01:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras I see what she was saying alright: an outright anti-Semite (e.g. "the "Jews" in Israel aren't Jews but just filty Zionists") was repeatedly advised on how best to conduct himself for the Palestinian cause, and BTW another appears to agree with what I was saying http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4255095 so it would seem your blindness is more than merely metaphorical. [:D] No Anax, you dont see anything, except as always, what you wish to see. And I dont care who appears to agree with you, you are wrong. I suggest the same could be aimed at yourself. You seem unable to believe that those who argee with you could have bad intent. An example is when you claimed few Muslims wish to see the destruction of Israel since some that you know said the same. The reality is quite different http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4220976,00.html however: quote: To grow up around this constant barrage of hatred directed at Israel has a massive effect on an individual’s own opinions. More disturbingly, many of these people weren’t radical or extreme, but when it was about Israel the most vicious of rhetoric poured out, coupled with the casual anti-Semitism that seemed too prevalent, when the phrase "stop being a Jew" used as an insult. My father, however, was much more brazen in his hatred, boasting of how Adolf Hitler was a hero, his only failing being that he didn't kill enough Jews. By the time I had reached 18 I was completely indoctrinated to the fold of radical Islamism. My hate for Israel and for the Jews was fuelled by images of death and destruction, set to the backdrop of Arabic melodies about Jihad and speeches of Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah or Osama Bin Laden. These views were reinforced when I attended Nakba Day rallies, where speakers predicted Israel's demise as Hezbollah flags were waved proudly in the centre of London.

Politesub53 -> RE: Israel (10/3/2012 2:31:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras I suggest the same could be aimed at yourself. You seem unable to believe that those who argee with you could have bad intent. An example is when you claimed few Muslims wish to see the destruction of Israel since some that you know said the same. The reality is quite different http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4220976,00.html however: Nice to see you still have your head stuck up your arse and refuse to debate the actual points, but instead knock tweaks to try and get the thread off track. Only you could see the opinion of one mans blog as reality of the whole.

DomKen -> RE: Israel (10/3/2012 2:59:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle The question might better be put as : On what basis can Israel live in peace and harmony with its neighbours? The Palestinians have recognised the existence of Israel since at least 1993 (the Oslo Accords). Even Hamas has been hinting strongly that it can live with a Palestinian State based on the 1967 borders. As usual you are lying. The Palestinian National Covenant, the charter under which the PLO operates, remains unamended and still calls for the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews world wide. The Hamas charter remains the profoundly anti semitic document it has always been, calling for genocide of the Jewish people worldwide and subscribing to a wide range of of anti Jewish conspiracy theories.

tweakabelle -> RE: Israel (10/3/2012 3:16:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras I suggest the same could be aimed at yourself. You seem unable to believe that those who argee with you could have bad intent. An example is when you claimed few Muslims wish to see the destruction of Israel since some that you know said the same. The reality is quite different http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4220976,00.html however: Nice to see you still have your head stuck up your arse and refuse to debate the actual points, but instead knock tweaks to try and get the thread off track. Only you could see the opinion of one mans blog as reality of the whole. I'm not totally convinced Politesub. It was kind of cute to see Anax having a go at me for daring to challenge a post that could be construed as anti-Semitic. After all the times he has falsely accused me of anti-Semitism, it was like seeing a 5 year old throwing a tantrum after his favourite toy was taken off him as a punishment.[:D] On a more serious note, it does demonstrate very clearly how apologists for the ghastly Netanyahu regime use the charge of anti-Semitism on a purely political basis to cynically and selectively silence criticism of the brutal Israeli occupation of Palestine. They're so busy trying to silence political criticism that they are the last to recognise the real thing when it comes along. So it's no surprise that threads are hijacked, or abuse is thrown around promiscuously rather than engage the issues. That would put them in the position of having to defend the indefensible. As I outlined above, the current Israeli Govt has no interest in peace. Israeli actions - in destroying the peace process to pursue colonisation of the West Bank - speak far louder than any spin the Anaxs of this world can conjure up to sanitise Israel's appalling occupation of Palestine, the apartheid statelet it operates there, and its goal of total conquest of the West Bank to be achieved by ethnically cleansing the indigenous people.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Israel (10/3/2012 5:27:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle The question might better be put as : On what basis can Israel live in peace and harmony with its neighbours? The Palestinians have recognised the existence of Israel since at least 1993 (the Oslo Accords). Even Hamas has been hinting strongly that it can live with a Palestinian State based on the 1967 borders. As usual you are lying. The Palestinian National Covenant, the charter under which the PLO operates, remains unamended and still calls for the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews world wide. The Hamas charter remains the profoundly anti semitic document it has always been, calling for genocide of the Jewish people worldwide and subscribing to a wide range of of anti Jewish conspiracy theories. Let's not forget Iran is in favor of a one-state result. Iran seems to be the most outwardly hell-bent on the destruction of Israel.

Anaxagoras -> RE: Israel (10/3/2012 6:12:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle The question might better be put as : On what basis can Israel live in peace and harmony with its neighbours? The Palestinians have recognised the existence of Israel since at least 1993 (the Oslo Accords). Even Hamas has been hinting strongly that it can live with a Palestinian State based on the 1967 borders. As usual you are lying. The Palestinian National Covenant, the charter under which the PLO operates, remains unamended and still calls for the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews world wide. The Hamas charter remains the profoundly anti semitic document it has always been, calling for genocide of the Jewish people worldwide and subscribing to a wide range of of anti Jewish conspiracy theories. Indeed, it is a ploy of pro-Palestinians to pretend Hamas somehow isn't the fanatical regime, and to completely white-wash the extremism also exhibited by the PLO/Fatah, which continues to incite against Israel in a most extraordinary way. Everytime Carter pretends to have got Hamas' assent to moderate, they furiously deny it. Similarly Tweaks pretends the Arab League proposal was a viable option for Israel. A condition was the right for any Arab state to revoke recognition of Israel at any time. That was a non-starter considering their history of invading the state.

Anaxagoras -> RE: Israel (10/3/2012 6:19:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras I suggest the same could be aimed at yourself. You seem unable to believe that those who argee with you could have bad intent. An example is when you claimed few Muslims wish to see the destruction of Israel since some that you know said the same. The reality is quite different http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4220976,00.html however: Nice to see you still have your head stuck up your arse and refuse to debate the actual points, but instead knock tweaks to try and get the thread off track. Only you could see the opinion of one mans blog as reality of the whole. If anyone has their head lodged up their rearward orifice it is you dear boy. I posted a link concerning a contention you made on a recent thread that had a very similar topic to this, and you dismissed it as being one man's blog. In fact it is an important article by an advocate of some repute. I didn't change topic, Tweek did by attempting to stop some guy's expressions of anti-Semitism, and school him to make him helpful to the Palestinian cause, rather than the ebil Jewish lobby! I didn't say she was anti-Semitic personally but it does illustrate a profound intellectual dishonesty.

tweakabelle -> RE: Israel (10/3/2012 6:34:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle The question might better be put as : On what basis can Israel live in peace and harmony with its neighbours? The Palestinians have recognised the existence of Israel since at least 1993 (the Oslo Accords). Even Hamas has been hinting strongly that it can live with a Palestinian State based on the 1967 borders. As usual you are lying. The Palestinian National Covenant, the charter under which the PLO operates, remains unamended and still calls for the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews world wide. The Hamas charter remains the profoundly anti semitic document it has always been, calling for genocide of the Jewish people worldwide and subscribing to a wide range of of anti Jewish conspiracy theories. As usual you are dead wrong. "The Hamas movement is ready to recognize agreements signed with Israel, and in fact recognize Israel, but only within the '67 borders, senior Hamas member Khaled Suleiman said Wednesday. According to Suleiman, the movement will be ready to accept a Palestinian state inside the '67 borders and will not operate to thwart diplomatic negotiations held by Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas." http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3249568,00.html That's just one report - there are many more reports confirming this position. And it comes from an Israeli source too. I look forward to your apology for wrongly calling me a liar - more in hope than anticipation. But go on, do the right thing for once in your life and surprise me - apologise.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: Israel (10/3/2012 6:44:40 AM)
tweakabelle, I think part of the issue is that the two sides have become so entrenched within Israel, but that the global conflict we face has been defined in broader terms such that the very existence of the state of Israel has become equated with being anti-Islam, and anything short of complete support for everything that Israel does and a complete dismissal of Palestinian interests in the area is labeled anti-Zionist or anti-Semitic. So now we have this global perspective on this region where all Islamic countries support not just the concept of a Palestinian homeland, but the eradication of Israel as well as the eradication of any peoples who support Israel, and Israel supports its right to existence at whatever cost - because, in a way, it feels it has no other choice. These positions have evolved over time, and it is not clear to me how to move towards reconciliation when the problem has moved from a local one to an international one. I'm not disputing what you've said, but moving towards a peaceful drawing of borders there is going to require a shift from the current global perspective on Islam and Israel. And I am struggling to understand what the first steps towards that process would be. Although, I have no trouble reiterating again for the millionth time the importance of reaching out to moderates in the various Islamic countries. For example, in Tunisia today a moderate Islamist-led coalition is working on a new constitution and the question of how it will define women's rights is a contentious issue. There are people within geo-political units who are trying to pull themselves and Islam into the current century against the backdrop of recent extremism (I say recent because the history of Islam, as a religion, has not always been one of extreme orthodoxy). For me, the political/cultural/social evolution of these various Islamic nations is critical for both the resolution of the Israelis-Palestinian issue, but also for global peace. We are not yet at the stage for a resolution in Israel. There are some other things that need to happen first (I believe) and I think actively supporting positive movement in other areas will ultimately make it easier to resolve the other issues. But I feel without a doubt, that enabling the Islamic people to move into the current century is the largest and most important challenge that we, as humans on this one planet Earth, have. I see disaster otherwise.

GotSteel -> RE: Israel (10/3/2012 7:04:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle Noah INTENTIONALLY told them The Ark was leaving 2 hours later than he pulled out, just to fuck the unicorns over. Bastard. That would be a great apologetic except.... Unfortunately for that explanation the Bible is infested with unicorns after that world wide flood which also never actually happened.

DomKen -> RE: Israel (10/3/2012 9:33:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle The question might better be put as : On what basis can Israel live in peace and harmony with its neighbours? The Palestinians have recognised the existence of Israel since at least 1993 (the Oslo Accords). Even Hamas has been hinting strongly that it can live with a Palestinian State based on the 1967 borders. As usual you are lying. The Palestinian National Covenant, the charter under which the PLO operates, remains unamended and still calls for the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews world wide. The Hamas charter remains the profoundly anti semitic document it has always been, calling for genocide of the Jewish people worldwide and subscribing to a wide range of of anti Jewish conspiracy theories. As usual you are dead wrong. "The Hamas movement is ready to recognize agreements signed with Israel, and in fact recognize Israel, but only within the '67 borders, senior Hamas member Khaled Suleiman said Wednesday. According to Suleiman, the movement will be ready to accept a Palestinian state inside the '67 borders and will not operate to thwart diplomatic negotiations held by Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas." http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3249568,00.html That's just one report - there are many more reports confirming this position. And it comes from an Israeli source too. I look forward to your apology for wrongly calling me a liar - more in hope than anticipation. But go on, do the right thing for once in your life and surprise me - apologise. Hamas is still killing Jews and is still spreading the worst anti semitic hate imaginable, including but not limited to the Blood Libel and the Protocols. To claim otherwise is a lie.

Politesub53 -> RE: Israel (10/3/2012 9:40:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras If anyone has their head lodged up their rearward orifice it is you dear boy. I posted a link concerning a contention you made on a recent thread that had a very similar topic to this, and you dismissed it as being one man's blog. In fact it is an important article by an advocate of some repute. I didn't change topic, Tweek did by attempting to stop some guy's expressions of anti-Semitism, and school him to make him helpful to the Palestinian cause, rather than the ebil Jewish lobby! I didn't say she was anti-Semitic personally but it does illustrate a profound intellectual dishonesty. You seem quite stupid lately. You tried to conflate what I said previously by showing one mans blog. A blog which doesnt tally with speaking to Muslims in the UK. Tweaks didnt take anything off topic, she just told one poster her view of the holocaust. I think your posts here have been a tad disingenuos and little more than an attempt to get the thread pulled.

Anaxagoras -> RE: Israel (10/3/2012 10:24:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle As usual you are dead wrong. "The Hamas movement is ready to recognize agreements signed with Israel, and in fact recognize Israel, but only within the '67 borders, senior Hamas member Khaled Suleiman said Wednesday. According to Suleiman, the movement will be ready to accept a Palestinian state inside the '67 borders and will not operate to thwart diplomatic negotiations held by Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas." http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3249568,00.html That's just one report - there are many more reports confirming this position. And it comes from an Israeli source too. I look forward to your apology for wrongly calling me a liar - more in hope than anticipation. But go on, do the right thing for once in your life and surprise me - apologise. Hamas is still killing Jews and is still spreading the worst anti semitic hate imaginable, including but not limited to the Blood Libel and the Protocols. To claim otherwise is a lie. No need to "apologise" Ken for after that report Hamas swiftly denied it http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5122822.stm - these sort of claims pop up now and again only to be denied but at the end of the day one only has to listen to Hamas' frequent assertions http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/152639 to know what they are about.

Anaxagoras -> RE: Israel (10/3/2012 10:39:28 AM)
Its interesting to see how you attack anyone who disagrees with you personally yet you are trolling me over criticising a prolific Israeli-basher on here trying to school an overt anti-Semite! Thats surprising even by your standards. You are lying over what Tweak said, its interesting how you support such an individual knowing full well what she has done. quote: There are innumerable valid reasons to justify criticism of Israeli policy and behaviour in Occupied Palestine. Your post mentioned some of these reasons. Why not stick to those valid reasons? Bringing up the Holocaust, particularly in the loose, sloppy language your first post displayed, just plays into the hands of the Zionist lobby, who like nothing better than to (falsely) frame the discussion of Occupied Palestine in terms of anti-Semitism. http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4254825 quote: Trying to associate such rubbish with the Palestinian cause does a lot of harm to that cause and plays straight into the hands of the Zionists. I hope that you reconsider your position before you do any more damage. http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4254859 quote: In the end it's up to you of course. You need to decide which message you want to convey and then convey it clearly and precisely. The terms you currently use are misleading and counter-productive, if you don't mind my saying so. http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4254873 Yet again I point out that we are not talking about a blogger. This is a Muslim man openly talking about the hatred embedded within the British Islamic community. It is a similar phenomenon elsewhere http://www.thecommentator.com/article/1724/jewish_communities_under_threat_in_malmo_sweden_ in Europe as another Muslim writer points out. Its simply an analogue of the Islamic world http://blogs.jpost.com/content/reactions-toulouse-murderer-algeria as Muslim Algerian journalist of repute Omar Dakhane has pointed out. BTW I don't object to the thread - you're the one trying to turn the heat up with personal comments - your modus operandi. T'Ozzy hasn't said anything she hasn't said a thousand times already, and no doubt will say a thousand times again. [X(]

kdsub -> RE: Israel (10/3/2012 1:08:56 PM)
never mind

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