RE: Israel (Full Version)

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Politesub53 -> RE: Israel (10/8/2012 4:05:36 PM)

I dont disagree Vincent. It is entirely possible that we are sadly too far down the road for any easy solution. Tweaks and I have long been pointing this out and have been called anti-semetic for doing so.

Sadly, for every Cleric or Israeli that strives for peace, there is another pushing for conflict.



Anaxagoras -> RE: Israel (10/8/2012 4:49:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
I dont disagree Vincent. It is entirely possible that we are sadly too far down the road for any easy solution. Tweaks and I have long been pointing this out and have been called anti-semetic for doing so.

Sadly, for every Cleric or Israeli that strives for peace, there is another pushing for conflict.

Stop the victim crap. You use the "Islamophobe" card near-constantly. Now you're playing the victim card by claiming you have been called "anti-Semitic" for saying we are too far down the road for an "easy solution". ROFL No one other than Lucky years ago called you that, and no one, be they pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian thinks a solution is easy. [8|] [X(]



tweakabelle -> RE: Israel (10/8/2012 10:46:56 PM)

quote:

Perhaps old plans and resolutions are beyond the Pale now.


I fear so. The level of settlement/colony penetration is such that it is almost impossible to undo, without triggering a civil war in Israel between the Right wing hardliners/colonists and the rest.

Recognising this, a lot of observers are beginning to look at a bi-national model, Israelis and Palestinians live side by side in the same State enjoying the same rights. Both sides lose their dream under this model - the Israelis no longer have an exclusively or primarily Jewish State, the Palestinians lose their right to a State of their own too.

There are an enormous number of obstacles to be overcome if this solution is to be implemented. If it's not, then the alternatives - which entail Israel either completing its ethnic cleansing of the West Bank, or becoming a permanent apartheid State - come in to play. Neither of these alternatives is acceptable.

There is talk in Israel of another model - in which Israel annexes Area C (the most fertile part of the West Bank) and walks away from the rest. The Palestinians can then do what they wish with their Bantustan. This seems like a recipe for permanent conflict, not a resolution, and will be unacceptable to the international community as well as the Palestinians.

All in all not many grounds for optimism and it's likely to remain so as long as the intransigent Israeli Right hold an effective veto over the peace process.



Politesub53 -> RE: Israel (10/9/2012 3:24:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

Stop the victim crap. You use the "Islamophobe" card near-constantly. Now you're playing the victim card by claiming you have been called "anti-Semitic" for saying we are too far down the road for an "easy solution". ROFL No one other than Lucky years ago called you that, and no one, be they pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian thinks a solution is easy. [8|] [X(]


Here you go again Anax........anything but address the actual topic at hand.



vincentML -> RE: Israel (10/9/2012 8:04:55 AM)

quote:

Recognising this, a lot of observers are beginning to look at a bi-national model, Israelis and Palestinians live side by side in the same State enjoying the same rights. Both sides lose their dream under this model - the Israelis no longer have an exclusively or primarily Jewish State, the Palestinians lose their right to a State of their own too.

Demographics and relative birth rates doom this model. I'm betting you are aware of that.
Probably, at the moment, the US has no real strategic interest in a solution.
Same for Syria's problem.
Not withstanding what my nation's prez candidates are saying.



kdsub -> RE: Israel (10/9/2012 9:12:16 AM)

quote:

observers are beginning to look at a bi-national model, Israelis and Palestinians live side by side in the same State enjoying the same rights. Both sides lose their dream under this model - the Israelis no longer have an exclusively or primarily Jewish State, the Palestinians lose their right to a State of their own too.


Which observers would this be?

I cannot imagine a more unrealistic proposed solution today. Especially if this solution is forced upon the two parties by outside interests rather than a negotiated agreement.

I do believe that years and years down the line, if peace persists and religion starts taking a backset to a democratic government, there may be talk of consolidation. I do hope this is the case.

But

For now the main focus must be stopping the violence and establishing agreed borders. After that perhaps peace can progress.

Butch



Anaxagoras -> RE: Israel (10/9/2012 9:50:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Stop the victim crap. You use the "Islamophobe" card near-constantly. Now you're playing the victim card by claiming you have been called "anti-Semitic" for saying we are too far down the road for an "easy solution". ROFL No one other than Lucky years ago called you that, and no one, be they pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian thinks a solution is easy. [8|] [X(]

Here you go again Anax........anything but address the actual topic at hand.

I was addressing your very point so if you want to blame anybody then blame yourself.

BTW as I predicted, Tweak, despite her protestations to the contrary, wants a one-state solution (AKA a Rwandan solution). Everyone understands that to be an effective end to Israel as a principally-Jewish state, which was the sole reason for its existence in the first place, and the very reason the Arab-Islamic world has wanted it nullified, declaring war in the first hours of its existence. The one-state solution is the clarion call of extreme pro-Palestinians/BDS freaks. The idea of fusing two populations, where one has expressed more genocidal hate than the Third-Reich ever did (the Palestinian side http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=7530 if anyone is wondering), is a rather abhorrent notion.



Politesub53 -> RE: Israel (10/9/2012 11:25:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

I was addressing your very point so if you want to blame anybody then blame yourself.


Trolling and addressing the point are two different things.

quote:


BTW as I predicted, Tweak, despite her protestations to the contrary, wants a one-state solution (AKA a Rwandan solution). Everyone understands that to be an effective end to Israel as a principally-Jewish state, which was the sole reason for its existence in the first place, and the very reason the Arab-Islamic world has wanted it nullified, declaring war in the first hours of its existence. The one-state solution is the clarion call of extreme pro-Palestinians/BDS freaks. The idea of fusing two populations, where one has expressed more genocidal hate than the Third-Reich ever did (the Palestinian side http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=7530 if anyone is wondering), is a rather abhorrent notion.



No more abhorent than the quasi ethnic cleansing taking place. Its absurd to casll anyone more genocidal than the Third Reich.

As for extrme pro palestinian BDS freaks.... grow some balls and say what you really mean...anti-semites.

This is what I mean about you being passive agreessive, trying to insinuate using clever language, hoping and failing that those you insult dont see through it.



Anaxagoras -> RE: Israel (10/9/2012 4:14:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
I was addressing your very point so if you want to blame anybody then blame yourself.

Trolling and addressing the point are two different things.

You made a comment that didn't stand up to scruteny, and was possibly an outright lie. I responded to it because your comment cast aspersions on a side that I consider myself to be a part of. Again, stop playing the victim when people pull you up. You bring a point up, it is fair game for others to comment on it - thats basically how it is for everyone on here.

quote:


quote:


BTW as I predicted, Tweak, despite her protestations to the contrary, wants a one-state solution (AKA a Rwandan solution). Everyone understands that to be an effective end to Israel as a principally-Jewish state, which was the sole reason for its existence in the first place, and the very reason the Arab-Islamic world has wanted it nullified, declaring war in the first hours of its existence. The one-state solution is the clarion call of extreme pro-Palestinians/BDS freaks. The idea of fusing two populations, where one has expressed more genocidal hate than the Third-Reich ever did (the Palestinian side http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=7530 if anyone is wondering), is a rather abhorrent notion.

No more abhorent than the quasi ethnic cleansing taking place. Its absurd to casll anyone more genocidal than the Third Reich.

"ethnic cleansing" in a populace that ballooned from one million in 1967 (West Bank and Gaza) to four million in 2005 before Israel left Gaza? Thats an odd sort of ethnic cleansing!!

quote:


As for extrme pro palestinian BDS freaks.... grow some balls and say what you really mean...anti-semites.

This is what I mean about you being passive agreessive, trying to insinuate using clever language, hoping and failing that those you insult dont see through it.

ROFL, more bullshit. Few would think I have ever pulled my punches. Some would be anti-Semites alright, as was found recently with the leader of the Free Gaza Movement http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/gaza-flotilla-reveals-its-anti-semitic-face/ but I have always said that would not mean all, and that no country should be above criticism.



Politesub53 -> RE: Israel (10/9/2012 4:19:43 PM)

Yawns........... Still trying to get the thread closed I see.



tweakabelle -> RE: Israel (10/9/2012 9:48:44 PM)

quote:

BTW as I predicted, Tweak, despite her protestations to the contrary, wants a one-state solution (AKA a Rwandan solution). Everyone understands that to be an effective end to Israel as a principally-Jewish state, which was the sole reason for its existence in the first place,


It's always such a surprise to discover that someone who has never agreed with me in his life knows more about my opinions than I do myself. Cynics might describe this as putting words in my mouth but we all know that Anax would never ever, not even in a month of Sundays stoop that low, would he ...?

So it will be a positive joy when Anax points out when and where I have said that I "want(s) a one-state solution (AKA a Rwandan solution)". In fact, it will be quite magical as I have never advocated such a solution.

I have discussed this option as being forced on all players as Israeli settlement/colonist activity has made a Two State solution impossible, which is a very different thing to advocating such a solution. Such nuances are lost on the Anaxes of this world, who are still insisting that contrary to all the available evidence, settlement/colonist activity and expansion are a "non-issue".

Everyone knows that the peace process broke down over the settlement/colony issue, but this is apparently not important enough to even qualify as an issue to the Israeli side......

To clarify my position: I fear that Israeli settlement activity is making a Two State solution impossible. I doubt that any Israeli Govt will have the political will to re-settle the 500,000 odd colonists already in the West Bank. 'A large proportion of the colonists are fanatics and will resist re-settlement inside Israel violently - witness the so-called 'price-tag' attacks by these thugs. Unless these people are re-settled inside Israel proper (ie. inside the 1967 borders), a viable Palestinian State is impossible - this is the goal of the settlement/colony movement, as others and I have been pointing out for some time.

If someone can show a way out of this impasse, I would love to see it. Unless this impasse can be resolved, other solutions must be considered. I have discussed briefly some of these alternative solutions above. None are as desirable as the Two State solution.



tweakabelle -> RE: Israel (10/9/2012 10:11:03 PM)

quote:

No more abhorent than the quasi ethnic cleansing taking place.

Two examples of Israeli ethnic cleansing of the West bank:
The Palestinian population in Area C, which was c300,000 in 1967, has dropped to c150,000 today.
http://wrmea.org/archives/380-washington-report-archives-2011-2015/march-april-2012/11087-leaked-eu-documents-criticize-israeli-policies-hint-at-greater-eu-involvement.html

Some 140,000 Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem have had their residency permits cancelled during 1967-94, forcing them to move elsewhere.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/11/israel-palestinians-residency-rights

These figures speak for themselves. Yes you are correct Politesub, the ethnic cleansing taking place currently is abhorrent.



Anaxagoras -> RE: Israel (10/10/2012 6:19:49 AM)

FR

It is of course a nonsense for Tweak to say she doesn't support a one-state solution, when the bi-national state she talked about is that very thing - two national peoples in one state. A one-state solution means the destruction of Israel as a principally-Jewish state - it will be demographically subsumed by an Arab-Islamic majority, and the autonomy of these people will be lost forever. That is the very reason Hamas and the PLO have advocated such a solution for decades, and it makes her early expressions of support for Hamas and Hizbullah (describing them as "resistance" in her earliest posts on CM whilst unrelentingly calling Israel "terrorists") entirely understandable. BTW the majority of Jews that came to Israel were forced to leave from Arab-Islamic lands. Thus it is supremely ironic now that their heirs are expected to be made subject to a similar culture.

One thing is very apparent about Tweak's opinions, they are driven by hatred (for whatever reason - its best not to speculate as intent is usally hard to assess), and a number of reasonable people like DomKen and KDsub have noted that on here repeatedly. Thus her prior protestations about supporting a two-state solution as she keeps insisting upon by referencing Resolution 242 might sound all well and good but oh suddenly the settlements are becoming too much for that process to ever be possible!!! Thus it means we need a Rwandan solution. Some will indeed smell the unpleasant stench in that crock for what it contains. The settlements have existed for 45 years, and contain a fairly modest populace considering the size of the area. We keep hearing about 500,000 people but the settlements outside Jerusalem house half that, and sit on 2% of the West Bank, excluding roads and external infrastructure. Thus a two-state solution is entirely possible. An unprecedented ten month settlement freeze was instituted but in peace-maker George Mitchell's http://freepressonline.com/main.asp?SectionID=52&SubSectionID=78&ArticleID=16257 words:

quote:

We negotiated that and the Israeli leaders agreed to halt new housing in the West Bank for 10 months. It was much less than what we asked for but more than anyone else had done. The Palestinians rejected it as worse than useless. They were strongly opposed to it. Then nine months on, there were negotiations for a couple of weeks that were discontinued by the Palestinians on the grounds that Israel wouldn’t continue the settlement freeze. What had been less than worthless a few months earlier became indispensable to continue negotiations.



VideoAdminGamma -> RE: Israel (10/10/2012 11:21:37 AM)

Fast Reply

We now return you to your regularly scheduled topic.

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4248457

quote:

ORIGINAL: VideoAdminAlpha

As to the definition of antisemitism in relation to TOS and how it applies on these boards:

Disparaging either Jews as a whole, or individually, or the Jewish race/religion solely or substantially on account of their Jewishness or following recognized practices whether religious or not that is attributable to being either of the Jewish race or religion, singling out Jews for special treatment solely because they are Jewish. This all addresses their RACE or religion, it has nothing to do with political beliefs or the arena. Therefore, criticism of the Israeli state is not anti-Semitism. Other racial/religious comments that are not allowed can include, but not be limited to, any derogatory comment attacking someone because of something they practice or believe because of their race, gender, religious, or sexual beliefs.

That is not all encompassing but hopefully that answers tweakabelle's and others questions.[:)]


I hope the above clears things up.

Thank you for being a part of CollarMe,
Gamma



Politesub53 -> RE: Israel (10/10/2012 11:59:37 AM)

Thank you Gamma.



FMRFGOPGAL -> RE: Israel (10/10/2012 12:59:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

No more abhorent than the quasi ethnic cleansing taking place.

Two examples of Israeli ethnic cleansing of the West bank:
The Palestinian population in Area C, which was c300,000 in 1967, has dropped to c150,000 today.
http://wrmea.org/archives/380-washington-report-archives-2011-2015/march-april-2012/11087-leaked-eu-documents-criticize-israeli-policies-hint-at-greater-eu-involvement.html

Some 140,000 Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem have had their residency permits cancelled during 1967-94, forcing them to move elsewhere.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/11/israel-palestinians-residency-rights

These figures speak for themselves. Yes you are correct Politesub, the ethnic cleansing taking place currently is abhorrent.


"ETHNIC CLEANSING"?????? Keeping it right to the edge of ethnocentrism, aren't we?

So what is it people who cling to these want? What do you expect the world to do about the country?  I often find myself wishing there would be a speedIER resolution to this problem. Then I see someone using the tools of propaganda, using inflammatory language on purpose.

and I wonder how that will ever happen.

But it's just the Israelis, isn't it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing

Although controversial and disputed among scholars, some contend that the 1948 Palestinian exodus of approximately 700,000 Palestinian Arabs who either fled or were expelled during the 1947-1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine and later the 1948 Arab-Israeli War that accompanied the establishment of the State of Israel was the result of ethnic cleansing by Jewish forces.[98][99][100][101]

Between the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and the Six Day War in 1967, there was a Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim lands. Many Jews living in Arab and Muslim nations were forcibly expelled by authorities, while others fled due to antisemitic pogroms which broke out during the conflict.[102][103][104][105][106] Between 800,000–1,000,000 Jews fled or were expelled from the Arab World, and another 200,000 Jews from non-Arab Muslim nations fled due to increasing insecurity and growing hostility. A number were also killed in antisemitic violence. Most migrated to Israel, where today, they and their descendants constitute about 40% of Israel's population.



Politesub53 -> RE: Israel (10/10/2012 4:12:16 PM)

Of course you are right. It isnt just the Israelis, and it isnt just happening between Muslim and Jew, world wide it is still a blot on humanity.

The fact remains that the removal of Arabs from their own land is a form of ethnic cleansing. Thats why I used the word quasi. Wiki actually describes the term in the way I was thinking.

quote:

it is now considered "the widely accepted scholarly term used to describe the systematic and violent removal of undesired ethnic groups from a given territory


The way I see it is as follows, the fact it is happening now, has an adverse effect on any peace talks. As does any violence by either side. They both need to make a quantum leap, if things are ever to move forward.



Anaxagoras -> RE: Israel (10/10/2012 6:21:10 PM)

FR: since my last post was pulled for no particular reason appertaining to Alpha's comments, here is a briefish response that covers some of the points.

Tweak again denies that she supports a one-state solution - a bi-national state is a one-state solution for two divergent peoples. Tweak states
quote:

a lot of observers are beginning to look at a bi-national model, Israelis and Palestinians live side by side in the same State enjoying the same rights. Both sides lose their dream under this model - the Israelis no longer have an exclusively or primarily Jewish State, the Palestinians.
In fact these "observers" (translation: pro-Palestinian activists like Tony Judt) they have been advocating that "model" for decades. Tweak has been going on and on about how Israel's actions have been making a two-state solution virtually impossible for ages now, seemingly at every opportunity. The conclusion was obvious. She was hinting at support for a one-state Rwandan solution as do all her extreme pro-Palestinian kinfolk.

Unfortunately, Tweak is being very dishonest when she claims the Palestinians would not get what they want. A bi-national state has been a stated goal of the PLO for decades, and Hamas also said they would find this option an acceptable alternative to destroying Israel militarily. The reality is that a bi-national state will subsume the Jewish populace by a considerable margin, leaving it at the mercy of an Arab-Islamic populace. The intense hatred Palestinians often display is known to all. A recent independent poll shows 73% agree with the Hamas Charter's genocidal http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=229493 expressions of mass killing. It would be a recipe for death on a vast scale.

The Jewish settlements in the West Bank constitute 2% of the territory (excluding external infrastructure). Nearly half of the 500,000 constituting the Jewish population that supposedly lives in Palestinian territory actually lives in East Jerusalem. Israel possessed the West Bank territory for 45 years, pointing to the fact that if the intent was truly to take all the land, not a vast amount has actually been done to effect change considering the big time span. It is far from insurmountable for the West Bank to be taken as the main zone for a Palestinian state. Re. the "settler" populace in East Jerusalem, there has been a lot of rubbish about Israel supposedly attempting to "Judaise" the city but the truth is that the Arab populace is actually growing faster there http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3397174,00.html than that of Jews, and has been for a few decades. This conflict has nothing to do with settlements. The Fedayeen and the PLO existed years before there were any settlements at all. This is a pan-Arab/Islamic conflict about Israel's very existence.



tweakabelle -> RE: Israel (10/10/2012 11:16:30 PM)

quote:

But it's just the Israelis, isn't it?


Unfortunately, it is "just the Israelis" doing the ethnic cleansing today. You are correct to point out that Jews have been the victims of ethnic cleansing in the past, as were the circa 750,000 Palestinians around the time of Israel's formation.

We cannot undo the past, nor does the past justify any ethnic cleansing being done today. And I am able to name only one country where ethnic cleansing and apartheid is being practiced today - Israel. I wish it were otherwise but such are the facts.

All ethnic cleansing - no matter who does it or why - is abhorrent and to be condemned without reservation.

ETA: The question of the settlements/colonies is a vexed one. Israel has no legal right or claim to the West Bank (other than a Military Occupier under the Geneva Conventions). One may well ask why are the settlements/colonies being built? It is clear that they don't contribute to the peace process - in fact, they are the direct cause of that peace process breaking down.

Why does Israel value these settlements/colonies more highly than peace? It doesn't make sense that one would build settlements/colonies unless one intends to keep them. The only answer that makes sense is that they are being built in order to prevent the formation of a Palestinian State. This is the stated goal of the settler movement.

If there is a peace deal, the settlers/colonists will have to choose between remaining and living under Palestinian rule, or re-settling to Israel proper. Does any one see them acquiescing to rule by Palestinians? What is going to be the fate of the approx 600,000 settlers/colonists ? Does any one see them returning to Israel proper without violent resistance, up to and including a civil war between Israelis? Why does Israel persist in creating overt permanent obstacles to peace in the full knowledge that the settlements/colonies are making a viable Two State solution increasingly impossible to achieve?

For Americans, the question is why is the US turning a blind eye to this Israeli sabotage of the peace process? Why is the US silent on the ethnic cleansing that is occurring daily in the West Bank?





tweakabelle -> RE: Israel (10/11/2012 1:03:01 AM)

quote:

Tweak again denies that she supports a one-state solution - a bi-national state is a one-state solution for two divergent peoples. Tweak states
quote:

a lot of observers are beginning to look at a bi-national model, Israelis and Palestinians live side by side in the same State enjoying the same rights. Both sides lose their dream under this model - the Israelis no longer have an exclusively or primarily Jewish State, the Palestinians.
In fact these "observers" (translation: pro-Palestinian activists like Tony Judt) they have been advocating that "model" for decades. Tweak has been going on and on about how Israel's actions have been making a two-state solution virtually impossible for ages now, seemingly at every opportunity. The conclusion was obvious. She was hinting at support for a one-state Rwandan solution as do all her extreme pro-Palestinian kinfolk


Thank you Anax for your attempts at translating my English into English. Sadly your attempts are quite unnecessary as readers of these boards are already fluent in English and don't need your mischievious attempts at putting words in my mouth.

I have already made my position crystal clear in previous posts above. It is at considerable variance to your 'interpretation'. Readers might ponder why it is that you need to repeatedly distort my words and invent my position, why you are unable to rely on the truth set out before your eyes in black and white. I suspect that you won't find their explanations very flattering. I don't.



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