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Israel is part of the solution, with no lasting peace there it gives extremists something to preach about. All sides need to start talking, and soon. Netenyahus speech at the UN telling us we need to draw a red line in the sand was farcical. Sooner or later friendly regimes in the area will fall (regimes always fall ) what happens then ?

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53
I found the above very interesting and informative. There are several points one could discuss but I shall start with the middle east.
At the end of WW2 American foreign policy started to expand into the middle east, both with Egypt and Iran. America decided to support Nasser, and install him as a buffer to the USSR. America, along with the UK, decided to depose Mossadeq and put the Shah back on the throne, mostly due to oil. At this time Israel wasnt all that great in Americas plans, infact America decided in 1956 not to supply Israel with bombers and it was another ten years before America changed their mind.
The British Empire had been built by trade, but we had the problem of not being able to defend all our supply lines. So in many parts of the world we turned a blind eye to despotic leaders that were our friends. America did the same with the Shah, Nasser, Hussein and others. To a degree this still happens today. Millions of weapons poured into the ME, both from the west and east. So now we have the US, the West, China, and USSR arming different governments at an alarming rate

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The general populace in the ME started to resent the luxurious lives of those in power, one by one they have started to be deposed, starting with the Shah. A void has formed in many of these nations that has been filled by fundementalists. So today, much of the ME is unstable. To give one example, Bush and Blairs adventure into Iraq has left the economy broken, infrastructure fractured and the population more deeply divided than it was under Saddam. There is no real explaination for this exept either gross stupidity or gross culpability. My view it is the later.

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Israel is part of the solution, with no lasting peace there it gives extremists something to preach about. All sides need to start talking, and soon. Netenyahus speech at the UN telling us we need to draw a red line in the sand was farcical. Sooner or later friendly regimes in the area will fall (regimes always fall ) what happens then ?

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ORIGINAL: vincentML


Sorry, Polite, to disagree. Israel is the focus of the problem. The Islamists will never accept Israel imho. You paint it with too dainty a brush when you say Israel gives the extremists something to preach about. There is genuine rage and humilation at its existence, and at its occupation of Palestinian lands. Also, rage and humilation at our troops in Afghasistan like the Russians before us, and the British before them. I fear the world is beyond the point of talking. Israel needs to withdraw from the occupied territories and we need to get the fuck out of Afghanistan. Just sayin. What and who are the 'extremists' anyway?

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri My one big question regarding these things, is, why does it seem the US is drawing the ire more than any other country, outside of Israel? If ya'all had a hand in this shit, too, would you please take some of the shit that's being thrown out. Please?

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri


Very interesting history, in a sad, SMH way. Thanks for pointing it out. My one big question regarding these things, is, why does it seem the US is drawing the ire more than any other country, outside of Israel? If ya'all had a hand in this shit, too, would you please take some of the shit that's being thrown out. Please?

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Is it possible that Saddam's Baathist Party ruled with an iron fist and kept the divisions under wraps? If people were afraid to complain, it could keep the divisions hidden. But, when people aren't as afraid, it can be seen as the divisions getting worse, while they may not be getting worse at all, simply finally being heard. The fear of speaking up was alleged to have happened under Saddam and Qaddhafi. While I'm not saying this is the answer you're missing, it's possible.

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I still don't understand wtf is going on between Israel and Palestine. While I'm not there and not privy to all the things that are going on, it seems to me that talks move forward, and peace is near, then Israel launches missiles and Palestinians react with their own munitions, or Palestinians launch mortars and grenades and Israel responds with missiles. Netanyahu and Abbas both talk peace and getting close to reaching an agreement, and then one of their countries does something to move everything back a ways. Is the talk simply talk and not truly indicative of what's going on?

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Very interesting history, in a sad, SMH way. Thanks for pointing it out. My one big question regarding these things, is, why does it seem the US is drawing the ire more than any other country, outside of Israel? If ya'all had a hand in this shit, too, would you please take some of the shit that's being thrown out. Please?

I`m not sure what you mean by SMH.
As for wondering why the US cops so much flack, it is due to your unfailing support for Israel and the lack of real pressure to halt the settlers movement (Ethnic cleansing to a degree). If you think America are the only country taking shit as you put it, then there is no chance you will get whats been going on. Are you (Americans) really that isolated to fail to have spotted bombing attacks world wide, or the allied soldiers getting killed right alongside yours, from Iraq to Afghanistan ? The notion this only affects the US is absurd.

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Is it possible that Saddam's Baathist Party ruled with an iron fist and kept the divisions under wraps? If people were afraid to complain, it could keep the divisions hidden. But, when people aren't as afraid, it can be seen as the divisions getting worse, while they may not be getting worse at all, simply finally being heard. The fear of speaking up was alleged to have happened under Saddam and Qaddhafi. While I'm not saying this is the answer you're missing, it's possible.

Not only possible, but 100% correct. often without a word of condemnation from the west. Thats not my point though, My point is Bush and Blair made a bad situation a whole lot worse. Didnt you catch the news about more bombings of civillians in Iraq this week, or last week, or the week before ?

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I still don't understand wtf is going on between Israel and Palestine. While I'm not there and not privy to all the things that are going on, it seems to me that talks move forward, and peace is near, then Israel launches missiles and Palestinians react with their own munitions, or Palestinians launch mortars and grenades and Israel responds with missiles. Netanyahu and Abbas both talk peace and getting close to reaching an agreement, and then one of their countries does something to move everything back a ways. Is the talk simply talk and not truly indicative of what's going on?

Did you read Tweaks link in full....... Netenyahu has made it clear halting the new settlements isnt an option. It seems to me that by leaving the main stumbling block to any peace talks, he wants to carry on the situation. The same can be said for some of the Arab leadership also.

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ORIGINAL: tallathleticmale

The Palestinians need to quit being so violent and hateful towards Israel. I have no Jewish blood in me, yet it is painfully obvious they have never gotten over having their land taken by Israel in the 7 days war. Palestinians started that war, and israel kicked their asses. They shouldn't have started that war, they lost and quit whining. Geesh, all they can do is kill innocent people with terrorist strikes, which is just cowardly and evil. Can't respect that at all.

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

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ORIGINAL: vincentML


Sorry, Polite, to disagree. Israel is the focus of the problem. The Islamists will never accept Israel imho. You paint it with too dainty a brush when you say Israel gives the extremists something to preach about. There is genuine rage and humilation at its existence, and at its occupation of Palestinian lands. Also, rage and humilation at our troops in Afghasistan like the Russians before us, and the British before them. I fear the world is beyond the point of talking. Israel needs to withdraw from the occupied territories and we need to get the fuck out of Afghanistan. Just sayin. What and who are the 'extremists' anyway?

I get your points Vincent. You use the term Islamists, do you mean all Muslims that take Islam seriously, or extremists IE fundimentalists ? I dont feel the former want Israel wiped off the earth, certainly not the many I speak to in the UK.

For reason stated by Others, especially tweaks, Israel cant just hand back the occupied territories, too many settlers live there now. Moving such a large section of society is practically impossible. Israel can make a good start by banning, and critically enforcing, the building of new settlements on Palestinian lands.

The fact America and its allies remain in Afghanistan, proping up a corrupt regime, wont endear us to anyone. I have said all along theat we should have gone in, dealt with Bin Laden and Al Qaida, then got out again. It is impossible to impose western style governance on a nation that runs on a tribal basis. Its like trying to make apples out of oranges.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

I know other countries are experiencing things, too. I figured my comment stating the US is getting "more than any other country" acknowledged that we weren't the only ones.

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I'm surprised you're as aggressive in your responses to me on this one, Polite. We are essentially agreeing on this stuff, yet, you can't keep from implying something negative in regards to me. The question isn't did they make it a whole lot worse, but, is it a whole lot worse? Are you saying that, in the long run, going through the struggles they are going through now (provided they do result in a more democratic and free nation) isn't better than living under an oppressive despot?

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No, I didn't read the entire link. There have been times when Netanyahu stopped new settlements and everything was moving forward. It seemed like an accord was imminent and then permission would be given for new settlements, derailing everything. I do not understand that at all. I don't even pretend to.

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There have been times when Netanyahu stopped new settlements and everything was moving forward. It seemed like an accord was imminent and then permission would be given for new settlements, derailing everything. I do not understand that at all. I don't even pretend to.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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There have been times when Netanyahu stopped new settlements and everything was moving forward. It seemed like an accord was imminent and then permission would be given for new settlements, derailing everything. I do not understand that at all. I don't even pretend to.

Palestinians object strongly to settlements/colonies for many reasons. Among the more important reasons are:
* The settlements/colonies contravene international law, which prohibits the colonisation of land acquired by military means;
* The primary goal of the settlement/colonisation movement, according to the settlers/colonists themselves, is prevention of a Palestinian State;
* The land being colonised is all part of the land designated to be part of a future Palestinian State;
* Israel has no legal claim or right over the land being settled/colonised;
* Palestinian land owners are often forcibly ejected from their lands by settler thugs or the IDF or both, often without compensation;
* The settlements/colonies are part of a more general program of ethnic cleansing, aimed at driving indigenous Palestinians from the region they have occupied for centuries to create a greater Israel extending from the Jordan River to the Mediterannean.
The settlements are there to prevent the formation of an independent Palestine. Palestinians argue, with good reason, that to continue building or expanding these settlements/colonies cannot be consistent with good faith negotiations about a Palestinian State.
For Israel the choice is simple. Israel can have peace negotiations with the Palestinians, or it can expand the settlements/colonies - but it cannot have both. They are mutually exclusive. Israel has consistently chosen to continue expanding the settlements/colonies rather than continue the peace process. Israeli policy and choices only make sense if one assumes that the goal of Israeli policy is the annexation of all of Occupied Palestine.
As the stated goal of the settlements/colonies - the prevention of a Palestinian State - directly contradicts the goal of the peace process - the Two State solution - Israeli participation in the peace process while ongoing settlement/colony growth is occurring makes that participation a sham, a charade, a nonsense.

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I think both are at fault and that we aren't to blindly support Israel in all it does.