RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message


GotSteel -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/15/2012 10:25:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
By what mechanism would the Intellectual(s) gain assent and compliance for the long term social good?


Perhaps by talking about it on the internet. We can try and raise awareness that electing people who dislike learning and thinking to jobs which require a lot of learning and thinking is a recipe for poor job performance.

And hey if we don't run into too many people that are so determined to pretend that we're talking about doing away with democracy and installing philosopher-kings we might even get somewhere.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/15/2012 11:59:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
By what mechanism would the Intellectual(s) gain assent and compliance for the long term social good?


Perhaps by talking about it on the internet. We can try and raise awareness that electing people who dislike learning and thinking to jobs which require a lot of learning and thinking is a recipe for poor job performance.

And hey if we don't run into too many people that are so determined to pretend that we're talking about doing away with democracy and installing philosopher-kings we might even get somewhere.


Yes agreed, GotSteel.

The whole point of this post is to point out that democracy only works as well as possible if people approach politics and leadership as something requiring some "smarts". I certainly was not advocating getting rid of democracy. If anything, the thread has pointed out how democracy works very well in some countries because the political culture is different.

So I agree with all of those on this thread who have pointed to certain issues (education, media, etc.) that can possibly be addressed in order to raise people's awareness.

Again, I return to the idea that no one wants a surgeon who hasn't been properly trained to do her job. No one would think it was acceptable to make an uneducated person their child's grade school teacher. So why do want leaders who don't know what they are doing? Again, this is a cultural approach to politics that isn't even reflected in how people make other choices in their lives.




Zonie63 -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/15/2012 12:01:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I've always considered the party fanboy-dom to be more akin to sports teams than religion. But either way I think that we could desperately use more intellectuals among the electorate.


I agree that we need more intellectuals among the electorate - or at least more intelligent voters.

I also think that sports teams would be another appropriate example analogous to religious devotion, in addition to party fanaticism. There are some people who get pretty wildly fanatical about their sports teams - more than they ever would over religion or politics. I'm not sure what that says about our culture, though.

Another interesting sidenote about sports and intellectualism is that more people seem to get excited over college athletic programs than their academic performance.




Moonhead -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/15/2012 12:03:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Another interesting sidenote about sports and intellectualism is that more people seem to get excited over college athletic programs than their academic performance.


Perhaps that's one of the roots of the problem?




cuckoldmepls -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/15/2012 12:22:15 PM)

They aren't. they are anti people who have no common sense. I don't care how intelligent you are or what your IQ is, if you don't have the common sense to understand basic economics or basic human nature & if you aren't loyal to the American way of life, I have no use for you.

Did you know the U.N. is gaining momentum right now for an internet tax. I kid you not. Democrats may not openly support it right now, but it is common knowledge Obama does support a U.N. tax. Remember when some Ca city was planning on eliminating all free parking. These are the kinds of ideas that so called 'intelligent' people support.




Moonhead -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/15/2012 12:29:02 PM)

You missed your "FR" marker in that post, dearie.




Hillwilliam -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/15/2012 12:32:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckoldmepls

They aren't. they are anti people who have no common sense. I don't care how intelligent you are or what your IQ is, if you don't have the common sense to understand basic economics or basic human nature & if you aren't loyal to the American way of life, I have no use for you.

Did you know the U.N. is gaining momentum right now for an internet tax. I kid you not. Democrats may not openly support it right now, but it is common knowledge Obama does support a U.N. tax. Remember when some Ca city was planning on eliminating all free parking. These are the kinds of ideas that so called 'intelligent' people support.

Those who have "Common sense" are aware that the UN holds no legislative power over US citizens.
They can make recommendations till their heads spin but our legislative branch must approve it or they get to suck eggs.




Zonie63 -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/15/2012 1:12:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
By what mechanism would the Intellectual(s) gain assent and compliance for the long term social good?


Perhaps by talking about it on the internet. We can try and raise awareness that electing people who dislike learning and thinking to jobs which require a lot of learning and thinking is a recipe for poor job performance.

And hey if we don't run into too many people that are so determined to pretend that we're talking about doing away with democracy and installing philosopher-kings we might even get somewhere.


Yes agreed, GotSteel.

The whole point of this post is to point out that democracy only works as well as possible if people approach politics and leadership as something requiring some "smarts". I certainly was not advocating getting rid of democracy. If anything, the thread has pointed out how democracy works very well in some countries because the political culture is different.

So I agree with all of those on this thread who have pointed to certain issues (education, media, etc.) that can possibly be addressed in order to raise people's awareness.

Again, I return to the idea that no one wants a surgeon who hasn't been properly trained to do her job. No one would think it was acceptable to make an uneducated person their child's grade school teacher. So why do want leaders who don't know what they are doing? Again, this is a cultural approach to politics that isn't even reflected in how people make other choices in their lives.


But then we're still left with the question as to what the qualifications should be for "leader." Each state has licensing and certification requirements for surgeons and school teachers, but qualifications for public office seem to be more open-ended, other than a minimum age requirement, citizenship, residency requirements - but nothing about education or any actual qualifications for the job.

So, how do we know if our leaders know what they are doing? What qualifications should we, as voters, look for when making our choices at the polls?

Should there be more stringent qualifications to hold public office, and if so, what should they be? Should a college degree be required?

Are qualifications even enough? Does character also count? There's a widely held view in U.S. culture in that the individual (and this especially applies to political candidates, not to mention salesmen) is "selling himself" more than his product or idea. So, with politicians, they're selling themselves more than their resume or even their ideas.

But on the subject of ideas and ideology, that may go back to party and factional loyalty I mentioned upthread. If a person is ideologically aligned with either the Democratic or Republican parties, they might not care so much that this candidate or that candidate is "unqualified" (or even a bumbling fool), because they may be voting more for the party and their ideological platform than any individual candidate. They're also looking at the lesser of two evils. I think people might be more inclined to vote for the airhead who agrees with them over the genius who disagrees with them.

















vincentML -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/15/2012 1:14:16 PM)

quote:

And hey if we don't run into too many people that are so determined to pretend that we're talking about doing away with democracy and installing philosopher-kings we might even get somewhere.

My point was never that you were trying to do away with democracy. My point was always that you and the OP were ignoring the reality of american democracy.




GotSteel -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/15/2012 1:34:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckoldmepls
& if you aren't loyal to the American way of life, I have no use for you.

Perhaps we need to but I'm not terribly inclined to go down this rabbit hole if I can avoid it as there's already a lot going on in the thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckoldmepls
They aren't. they are anti people who have no common sense. I don't care how intelligent you are or what your IQ is, if you don't have the common sense to understand basic economics or basic human nature...

Would you define common sense and how it differs from intellect? Certainly IQ isn't the only criteria that I'm proposing, I think education is of the utmost importance. For example you talked about economics, certainly I think that having a knowledge of economics is essential to understanding economics. Do you consider common sense to fall within somewhere within one or both of those two realms or is it something different?




vincentML -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/15/2012 1:57:35 PM)

quote:

The whole point of this post is to point out that democracy only works as well as possible if people approach politics and leadership as something requiring some "smarts". I certainly was not advocating getting rid of democracy. If anything, the thread has pointed out how democracy works very well in some countries because the political culture is different.

I will say again here what I replied to GS . . . I never suggested you were advocating getting rid of democracy. My point was that you failed to understand or ignored the dynamics of american democracy.

You mentioned in #3 France, Japan, India, Italy as exemplars of nations where democracy works very well. Better than in America? By what metrics, please?

as to approaching leadership as requiring some "smarts" . . . . do you honestly believe anyone votes for STOOPID? That's silly, I'm afraid. Voting is a very personal activity. When we vote we reflect our own self-respect. We always vote for the candidate we consider superior.

quote:

But then we're still left with the question as to what the qualifications should be for "leader."


I submit that regardless of what you think a leader's qualifications should be the only real thing that qualifies a leader is if anyone is following him or her.

quote:

But on the subject of ideas and ideology, that may go back to party and factional loyalty I mentioned upthread. If a person is ideologically aligned with either the Democratic or Republican parties, they might not care so much that this candidate or that candidate is "unqualified" (or even a bumbling fool), because they may be voting more for the party and their ideological platform than any individual candidate. They're also looking at the lesser of two evils. I think people might be more inclined to vote for the airhead who agrees with them over the genius who disagrees with them.


Firstly, the "bumbling fool" is tested by a campaign in a primary contest. Secondly, it seems that you are starting to allow for the possibility that voting is not necessarily a rational activity. There are always emotional dimensions to the choices we make, aren't there?




Moonhead -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/15/2012 2:22:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
We always vote for the candidate we consider superior.

Not if he or she is on the other team, you don't.
[;)]




GotSteel -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/16/2012 5:45:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
I will say again here what I replied to GS . . . I never suggested you were advocating getting rid of democracy. My point was that you failed to understand or ignored the dynamics of american democracy.


[8|] Since apparently we're explaining the other guys position to them, I'll give it a go. You've spent pages failing to comprehend our position and how our democracy works.

Wow, it's a lot easier when you get to tell the other side what they are thinking.




vincentML -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/16/2012 9:02:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
I will say again here what I replied to GS . . . I never suggested you were advocating getting rid of democracy. My point was that you failed to understand or ignored the dynamics of american democracy.


[8|] Since apparently we're explaining the other guys position to them, I'll give it a go. You've spent pages failing to comprehend our position and how our democracy works.

Wow, it's a lot easier when you get to tell the other side what they are thinking.

I am sure you found that true for yourself earlier. But that's what happens when people post abstruse monologues and leave others to try and divine what their meaning is. Really, have you figured out your position yet?




vincentML -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/16/2012 9:05:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
We always vote for the candidate we consider superior.

Not if he or she is on the other team, you don't.
[;)]

But that's my point, Moon. We rationalize our choice, so our guy or gal is always the peachiest. Otherwise we would be admitting to ourselves we are voting stupid. Human nature intervenes, don't it? [:)]




Moonhead -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/16/2012 9:08:23 AM)

Mea culpa. I thought you meant intellectually and politically superior, not ideologically superior.
Dead right that a few filter circuits get engaged when your guy appears to have been dropped on his head as a baby and their guy can read without moving his lips...




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/16/2012 1:46:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
My point was that you failed to understand or ignored the dynamics of american democracy.



Quite the opposite. I think I understand it quite well. And I am complaining about it. And trying to suggest it should be different. And offering discussion around how it could be different.

Again, just because the current state of affairs in American politics IS a certain way, does not mean that it OUGHT to be that way or that it cannot CHANGE.

I take it this means that your basic approach to your life is that if something IS it is meant to be that way, and we don't try to even think about whether it could be improved or done differently. You are entitled to your approach. Personally, I am always striving to improve. As a country, I don't see that it should be any different. When something isn't working, it begs the question of why it is not working, and how things could be improved.

If you feel that political culture is completely unalterable, well then I feel really, really sad for my country. Because, then you are saying there is NO hope whatsoever.

Wow. Imagine if people approached other things in their life this way. The toilet's not working the way it should. I guess we'll just manage without a bathroom and do our business in the yard. I'm suffering from health issues. I guess I'll just die. [&:]




GotSteel -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/16/2012 5:20:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
But on the subject of ideas and ideology, that may go back to party and factional loyalty I mentioned upthread. If a person is ideologically aligned with either the Democratic or Republican parties, they might not care so much that this candidate or that candidate is "unqualified" (or even a bumbling fool), because they may be voting more for the party and their ideological platform than any individual candidate. They're also looking at the lesser of two evils. I think people might be more inclined to vote for the airhead who agrees with them over the genius who disagrees with them.


I think we have a problem at the moment that's worse than the "well he's an idiot but at least he's not the other party" mentality. It's seems to me that there's a portion of the electorate for whom limited cognitive ability is considered an attribute.





PeonForHer -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/16/2012 6:30:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad


Politicians are us. I'm inclined to think more of them will do a good job if they're free to do it without being booted for it.




Hell's bells! Politicians are us, to be sure - but they're 'us' with added power. Whatever happened to 'power corrupts'? Nup. I want politicians to have at least a little fear that we, the electorate, have some small say in whether they stay or go.




vincentML -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/17/2012 9:08:40 AM)

quote:

I take it this means that your basic approach to your life is that if something IS it is meant to be that way, and we don't try to even think about whether it could be improved or done differently. You are entitled to your approach. Personally, I am always striving to improve. As a country, I don't see that it should be any different. When something isn't working, it begs the question of why it is not working, and how things could be improved.

FTP, 'something isn't working' is your characterization. Ain't necessarily so. Our Federal governance was set up as a system of checks and balances. You and I may not like the current status, and it has lead to some serious contretemps in our history (Civil War [:-]) Somehow, we have gotten along: abolition of slavery; universal suffrage; civil rights; universal public education; near universal healthcare; social security; medicare; medicaid; TANF; etc. We have a contentious, adversarial political culture. Realistically, what would you change? Saying we should have 'smart' representatives and a 'smart' electorate seems wishful idealism.




Page: <<   < prev  10 11 [12] 13 14   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875