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Aswad -> RE: Grade the Debate (10/9/2012 7:07:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

Sorry, Charlie. I asked who. You stated Norway. I asked for proof. Now, you're asking me to prove otherwise? Nice try, but that onus isn't on me.


I've provided an example of strictly ethical behavior that contradicts greed as a motivator.

Similarly, the money we get from oil is handled according to ethical guidelines that consider the consequences of our actions in a perspective of several centuries, factoring in global economic and military stability, human rights, environmental issues, biodiversity and so forth. These policies prevent investing in several lucrative fields, such as the manufacture of certain classes of weapons, tobacco and the like. It is actively managed to influence companies in the portfolio to conduct themselves ethically, such as by holding a 900 million euro divestment over Siemens' heads to make them deal with a corruption issue (which they did).

That's one per cent of the GWP (gross world product) being used to make the world a better place, with earning money as a secondary goal.

Among projects financed with these resources, you will find the Svalbard Global Seed Vault, which is a nuclear strike proofed facility that houses the genetic material which would be necessary to reseed the biosphere of this planet in the case of an extinction level event. Such an event would likely eradicate every person involved in making the decision to invest in the project, and the nation itself may be gone if an extinction level event occurs. Even so, we consider it important to conserve the basis for life against the unimaginable, so we foot the bill (with partners that do have less than noble motives, but would never have done it on their own).

Someone has to step up to the plate and act responsibly on behalf of Earth.

That'd be us: Norway.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



mnottertail -> RE: Grade the Debate (10/9/2012 8:20:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Oh, Norway.  There are others.

Norway isn't run by greed?!? Oh, do tell.

Oh, lay your special wisdom on us, here...you have innuendo, and great swaths of jingo, but no actual real and credible facts in evidence.
So, how about you tell?  You are the extravagant and sincerely doubtful claimant.


Sorry, Charlie. I asked who. You stated Norway. I asked for proof. Now, you're asking me to prove otherwise? Nice try, but that onus isn't on me.


Sorry, the extravagant claim made by you is at question for its veracity, not mine.

You have proof of governments run by greed? No,  I have a clear exception.

You have what is called  an epic fail, as well as an epic example of fallacy of composition, hasty generalization, and shifting the burden of the proof.

You got nothing.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Grade the Debate (10/10/2012 3:40:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Sorry, Charlie. I asked who. You stated Norway. I asked for proof. Now, you're asking me to prove otherwise? Nice try, but that onus isn't on me.

I've provided an example of strictly ethical behavior that contradicts greed as a motivator.
Similarly, the money we get from oil is handled according to ethical guidelines that consider the consequences of our actions in a perspective of several centuries, factoring in global economic and military stability, human rights, environmental issues, biodiversity and so forth. These policies prevent investing in several lucrative fields, such as the manufacture of certain classes of weapons, tobacco and the like. It is actively managed to influence companies in the portfolio to conduct themselves ethically, such as by holding a 900 million euro divestment over Siemens' heads to make them deal with a corruption issue (which they did).
That's one per cent of the GWP (gross world product) being used to make the world a better place, with earning money as a secondary goal.
Among projects financed with these resources, you will find the Svalbard Global Seed Vault, which is a nuclear strike proofed facility that houses the genetic material which would be necessary to reseed the biosphere of this planet in the case of an extinction level event. Such an event would likely eradicate every person involved in making the decision to invest in the project, and the nation itself may be gone if an extinction level event occurs. Even so, we consider it important to conserve the basis for life against the unimaginable, so we foot the bill (with partners that do have less than noble motives, but would never have done it on their own).
Someone has to step up to the plate and act responsibly on behalf of Earth.
That'd be us: Norway.
IWYW,
— Aswad.


And, Norway gets nothing out of this? Why are you even investing? Do people die with money left over? Does any company work for a profit (in the US, it's acceptable for a "non-profit" company to take profits in savings for "rainy day" funds, or capital improvements funds), or are all companies there non-profit?

Does your global seed vault (which is a very cool thing) contain non-GMO seed, and/or "heriloom" seed?

Neat article on seed vaults.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Grade the Debate (10/10/2012 3:44:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Sorry, the extravagant claim made by you is at question for its veracity, not mine.
You have proof of governments run by greed? No,  I have a clear exception.
You have what is called  an epic fail, as well as an epic example of fallacy of composition, hasty generalization, and shifting the burden of the proof.
You got nothing.


I asked for one country not run by greed.

You stated, "Norway."

I asked for proof.

The epic fail is on you for not being able to prove that your initial offering was correct, and, further, your assertion that "there are others," makes it even larger because you can't even back it up.

Then, you try to say the burden is on me?!?

Let's be clear. It is you that has nothing.



pyschosubmission -> RE: Grade the Debate (10/10/2012 4:00:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

I asked for one country not run by greed.



Scotland.

Most of our services are nationalised. In fact one of the main drives for having a government separate from Great Britain was to prevent further privatisation. That said, we've still got a lot to learn from Norway, but i am hopeful that we will.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Grade the Debate (10/10/2012 4:14:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pyschosubmission
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I asked for one country not run by greed.

Scotland.
Most of our services are nationalised. In fact one of the main drives for having a government separate from Great Britain was to prevent further privatisation. That said, we've still got a lot to learn from Norway, but i am hopeful that we will.


No one profits in Scotland? No one has more than anyone else? No one has any needs that aren't met? No one?



pyschosubmission -> RE: Grade the Debate (10/10/2012 4:28:46 AM)

quote:

No one profits in Scotland? No one has more than anyone else? No one has any needs that aren't met? No one?


Those are remarkably different questions to "Name a country not run by greed"

However, various people profit in Scotland including nationalised companies such as "Scottish Water" and our universities.

Also, from your first day in school to your graduation from college or university you don't have to pay a penny. In fact if you are from a low income family, the Scottish Government will give you a grant to help you with living costs at uni.

If you are sick from work, you are guaranteed your wages by the government.

If you lose your job, local government will help you with paying rent.

And of course nobody goes bankrupt for losing their health



DeviantlyD -> RE: Grade the Debate (10/10/2012 4:36:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pyschosubmission
And of course nobody goes bankrupt for losing their health


The USA is probably the worst country in the world for that problem...going bankrupt due to bills from medical issues. It's a wonder more people in this country don't take better care of themselves. Some survey I read about online said that Hawai`i was one of the fittest states in the 50. I find that rather scary considering what I have seen here.



DomYngBlk -> RE: Grade the Debate (10/10/2012 5:19:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk
Hope it is up. He got his feelings hurt. Doesn't like to be called unamerican but is fine in calling others that........so it goes


Where did I call anyone unAmerican? Show it or shut it.

WalMart and any other retailer out there doesn't have to do a damn thing for anyone, but their customers. If their customers are happy, they can do business any fucking way they want (within government regulations, obviously). It's all well and good to support American-made, but you get into problems when you start looking into "American-made."

Is a Dodge Charger an American-made product even though final assembly is in Canada? Is a Toyota Rav-4 and American-made product since final assembly is in America? If an American company turns screws in America, they can claim the product is "American made," even if they get every single blank overseas. What is the criteria for something being "American-made?"

If I employed 1,000 sales people to sell goods that came solely from India, would I be employing Americans? Would your wanting to boycott my business somehow not be against an American worker?

Define an American-made product.


American Made = Made in America.

Walmart don't sell cars.

I didn't call you unamerican. I asked you why you hate America so much. The question still stands.

I am not arguing why or if Walmart could change policies. I am arguing why they changed a stated policy. To me it shows exactly the cancer that is growing on American Business. Instead of being good citizens of the Country they reside in....and try to work with those citizens for the betterment of their business and country they walk away from both business and country. Is Walmart UnAmerican? Is having a corporate strategy that will see millions of your countrymen lose thier jobs and small businesses they built UnAmerican?



DesideriScuri -> RE: Grade the Debate (10/10/2012 5:53:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk
Hope it is up. He got his feelings hurt. Doesn't like to be called unamerican but is fine in calling others that........so it goes

Where did I call anyone unAmerican? Show it or shut it.
WalMart and any other retailer out there doesn't have to do a damn thing for anyone, but their customers. If their customers are happy, they can do business any fucking way they want (within government regulations, obviously). It's all well and good to support American-made, but you get into problems when you start looking into "American-made."
Is a Dodge Charger an American-made product even though final assembly is in Canada? Is a Toyota Rav-4 and American-made product since final assembly is in America? If an American company turns screws in America, they can claim the product is "American made," even if they get every single blank overseas. What is the criteria for something being "American-made?"
If I employed 1,000 sales people to sell goods that came solely from India, would I be employing Americans? Would your wanting to boycott my business somehow not be against an American worker?
Define an American-made product.


American Made = Made in America.


Didn't I bring up enough products to make "Made in America" more than a simple answer? Could you simply answer the questions posed? Seriously.

quote:

Walmart don't sell cars.


So? You are complaining that they veered away from their American Made roots. I brought up the vehicles to show how "American Made" isn't exactly easy to decipher.

quote:

I didn't call you unamerican. I asked you why you hate America so much. The question still stands.


Really? In Post #214, you stated:
    quote:

    Doesn't like to be called unamerican but is fine in calling others that........so it goes


If you didn't call me unamerican, then why that implication?

At what point in time did I ever make the point out that I hate America? I don't. No place I'd rather be. There's the answer to your question. Now, what gave you the idea that I was?

quote:

I am not arguing why or if Walmart could change policies. I am arguing why they changed a stated policy. To me it shows exactly the cancer that is growing on American Business. Instead of being good citizens of the Country they reside in....and try to work with those citizens for the betterment of their business and country they walk away from both business and country. Is Walmart UnAmerican?


Being "good citizens of the Country they reside in?" What does that even mean? Are they providing low cost goods to consumers? Haven't they grown based on that very business plan? Are their revenues, profits, etc. suffering because they aren't being "good citizens?" We agree that they have engaged in bad HR practices. I support proper consequences for those violations. I have no problem with that.

quote:

Is having a corporate strategy that will see millions of your countrymen lose thier jobs and small businesses they built UnAmerican?


How 'bout coming down off hyperbole mountain a sec. so we can have a factual discussion. Is it wrong for WalMart to source goods at the lowest possible price so they can turn around and sell them at a price lower, or as low as, their competitors? How is it that American manufacturing can't compete with off-shore manufacturing on a cost basis? If I am having to do something that I won't likely ever have to do again, am I unAmerican for choosing the cheapest possible tool to get the job done, even if that means I buy an import? Should I call my local Snap-On ® representative and pay for one of the most expensive versions of the tool I need (and, I'm not impugning the value of their tools)?




mnottertail -> RE: Grade the Debate (10/10/2012 7:09:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Sorry, the extravagant claim made by you is at question for its veracity, not mine.
You have proof of governments run by greed? No,  I have a clear exception.
You have what is called  an epic fail, as well as an epic example of fallacy of composition, hasty generalization, and shifting the burden of the proof.
You got nothing.


I asked for one country not run by greed.

You stated, "Norway."

I asked for proof.

The epic fail is on you for not being able to prove that your initial offering was correct, and, further, your assertion that "there are others," makes it even larger because you can't even back it up.

Then, you try to say the burden is on me?!?

Let's be clear. It is you that has nothing.


No, you lie again.  You are demonstrably factless, and actually repugnantly illogical, with nothing but smears  and innuendo, and simpletonion jingos.  But all of it floccinaucinihilipilification.

quote:


Name one country that doesn't run on greed.


I answered the question, some erudite knowledge and experience behind it.

quote:


Norway isn't run by greed?!? Oh, do tell.


Issuing this impugning challenge leaves no doubt that you have the extravagant claim that all countries are run by greed and only by greed governmentally.

At that I replied:

Oh, lay your special wisdom on us, here...you have innuendo, and great swaths of jingo, but no actual real and credible facts in evidence.
So, how about you tell?  You are the extravagant and sincerely doubtful claimant.

And knowing that Aswad is a native Norwegian, he has answered most artfully and unequivocally my claim that the country of Norway (a socio-democratic country) is run overarchingly on good neighbor-good people principals.  I, being of somewhat lesser mein, am telling you that he put the lie to your extravagant and as usual untutored claims.

And, I issued a clear challenge to you to prove them, not some smarmy innuendo full of rancid air and impudent ignorance.

So, at best your mumblings are a laughingstock, at least shown to be less than anywhere near correct in your inept diatribe. 



Aswad -> RE: Grade the Debate (10/10/2012 7:48:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

And, Norway gets nothing out of this?


Good karma. I'm not sure being greedy about that is a vice.

Let's be clear: this is a pension fund, so future generations will indeed get something out of it, though probably not the current generation of politicians. Ethical conduct has primacy. Preserving a good future is secondary. Earning money is third, and a consequence of preserving a good future. Obviously, we turn a profit. We just don't take that profit out of the system, so to speak. But we'll take a loss over poor ethics, and have done so in the past. With a bit of creative twisting, one can always ascribe selfish motives, and usually greedy ones, but that mostly comes down to perspective. When discussing real motivators, however, intent matters.

Greed isn't in evidence here in any meaningful sense.

ETA: Comparing the paycheck of the POTUS to that of our PM, we see that the POTUS earns about 20 times the typical net annual household income there, while our PM earns about 1.5 times the typical net annual household income here. The PM sets his own paycheck, for all intents and purposes. If he wanted more, he would have more. If this is greed, he's not very good at it.

quote:

Why are you even investing?


There's a future. We would like to keep it that way. And preferrably be in it.

quote:

Does your global seed vault (which is a very cool thing) contain non-GMO seed, and/or "heriloom" seed?


Of course.

Part of the reason why Monsanto bothered to pay part of it is precisely that this see vault means we can reseed the world if one of their experiments go crazy and wipe out unmodified crops. A snapshot of the current gene pool, as nature handed it to us, before we start to fuck it up. Even Monsanto can see the logic in that, or at least the massive lawsuit they would face in case of such an event. Of course, such a lawsuit wouldn't resolve before global food supply was down to supporting a few million people, so I figure they might also see that whole "surviving our own crap" angle to it.

For our sake, it mostly comes down to having the territory, the technology and the resources.

On all accounts: check. Svalbard has the benefit of being inherently too cold for the refrigeration to critically fail, being really inaccessible to anyone with an interest in putting a dent in the place, and us already having freed up a damn solid facility about the time the idea popped up. I would've preferred to have some sort of airship backup to deal with meteor strikes, too, but reseeding might not even be possible if that happens (and there would be no humans around to initiate the process, anyway). Still, as you say, a very cool thing.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



mnottertail -> RE: Grade the Debate (10/10/2012 7:54:53 AM)

Oh, the seed vault.  Any idea how much it is up to?   There are like some 280,000 (or was it 28000) varieties around the globe and a couple 3 years ago (not sure how long it was) I had read that a little over 1% or 10% of that was already in the vault.

Svalbard  (isn't that like the bird called a swallow?)

Sval swallow.
bard bird.
???   Hjelp!!!!!! (LOL)



Aswad -> RE: Grade the Debate (10/10/2012 8:07:16 AM)

I haven't kept up to date on the fill rate, but the goal is to get full coverage in the end.

As for Svalbard... "sval" means cool (not cold, but a bit chill), but no idea on "bard", actually. It's not bird.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



mnottertail -> RE: Grade the Debate (10/10/2012 8:11:38 AM)

svaal then is the swallow?  I believe it is in danish, but who knows what the fuck language those wanna be germans speak. 



Aswad -> RE: Grade the Debate (10/10/2012 8:22:13 AM)

Svale, yes, pronounced svālə.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



mnottertail -> RE: Grade the Debate (10/10/2012 8:25:02 AM)

Yeah, I havent got that keyboard thing worked out, as you are aware.  Didnt know about the e on the end.  Hell, I can't even spell in English language often.




DomYngBlk -> RE: Grade the Debate (10/10/2012 11:30:40 AM)

Made in America is Made in America. It isn't a multiple choice question. Are Hondas and Toyotas made in America? Yeah that plants that are here are........Do I wish and hope that American companies take their market share? Yes. Would I support incentives to push this along...yes as well.

Sorry, you seem to hate America or Americans. Like many Conservatives you have a problem with vast amounts of people that live and work here. Just the general tone of your comments.

Good Citizens? It all goes back to asking mr walton. how much is enough? How much do you need so that you feel good. I say, that is where good citizenship comes in. Looking out after your community and your country. Did they do that? Hell the fuck no. Did jack welsh? Hell the fuck no. Steve Jobs? Hell the fuck no. Course they will be the first with hand over their heart, bible in hand.....god bless america....

American Manufacturing can compete with anyone. When, Big When,,,,it is a level playing field. Take the LG products that you see everywhere now. Korean. How much subsidy do you think they get from the Korean gov't. You think they produce better than Whirlpool in Ohio? Bullshit. That is why when you talk about no gov't interference in business it is suicidal. Its like playing 1950's football rules with little equipment in todays game. Its also why Mitt Romney isn't good for America today. He knows the old rules. Plays them. They don't work today. His generations time has come and gone.




tazzygirl -> RE: Grade the Debate (10/10/2012 11:37:57 AM)

~FR

Greed is not the same as profit.



tj444 -> RE: Grade the Debate (10/10/2012 2:02:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD


quote:

ORIGINAL: pyschosubmission
And of course nobody goes bankrupt for losing their health


The USA is probably the worst country in the world for that problem...going bankrupt due to bills from medical issues. It's a wonder more people in this country don't take better care of themselves. Some survey I read about online said that Hawai`i was one of the fittest states in the 50. I find that rather scary considering what I have seen here.

well,.. part of that problem is the food supply, aint it??? I tried to find a decent can of pasta sauce today and jar after jar had sugar in the ingredients.. leave it to greed-motivated American business to screw up "food" to the point of most of it being toxic (well,.. my definition of "toxic") and dangerous to your health.. It takes me three times as long to shop now cuz i have to read all the labels and compare to find the least harmful "foods" for me.. and ya gotta keep checking the labels all the time too cuz they can change their formula/ingredients without warning or notice (like Kashi cereal did).. I dont buy it anymore cuz of that.. [>:] Then their subsidiaries try to export their bad business ideas/ways to other countries.. [X(]



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