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Social Structure and the Femdom - 6/13/2006 10:50:46 PM   
christ344


Posts: 2
Joined: 6/10/2006
From: Neverwhere
Status: offline 		This is a theory.  Or perhaps not even a theory.  Maybe just food for thought.  Anyway, it was something I wrote tonight which I plan to explore further later.

Yes I am a fetishist.  My personal belief is that sexuality is neither right or wrong but instead is just a function of the imprinting that took place during our sexual developmental years.  Of course, given the nature of the typical dysfunctional family there is a wide range of fetishisms or deviancies that can occur.  Anyway, these thoughts have lead me to do a bit of research to try and understand what this means for me and for society.   I say society because the truth is that there is an extreme increase in the number of individuals displaying fetishistic or deviant urges.  Given that it is taking place on a large scale it is obvious that there is an underlying factor that cuts through our societal structure.  What are the possible explanations for this anomally?

The first aspect of this new fetishism seems to be an emphasis on the femdom female dominant.  As this is my own particular fetish, it is naturally the one that intrigues me most.  There seems to be an inordinate amount of men desiring the experience of a relationship in which the female is the dominant participant.  Though there have been exceptions (certain matriarchies in India/Aboriginal America and various others) this is by far an exception and in sharp contrast to the societal pattern for relationships for the last 100 years - if not the last 4000+ years.  (since the Agricultural revolution probably - something I will address later)

I believe the "femdom" movement, if it can be called such is part of a natural process that began early in the last century with the women's rights movement.  Prior to that most women didn't even have the right to vote, much less the right to make important decisions in the context of the primary relationship. 

The interesting thing about the femdom fantasy most men have is that it places them in the particular position that women have occupied for the last 4000 years. 

So it seems to me that all of this provides rationale for what is taking place in our society sexually.   We kid ourselves to think that as individuals we can sublimate the natural desires and evolution of the entire species.  And in my opinion this move to the left so to speak, is an evolutionary correction of an imbalance that has existed since the first tribe moved into the city and began to farm. 

So everytime a man feels the need to serve a dominant female he should blame it all on that fateful decision to quit foraging for food and to start farming.  Why was this important? Because soon after we had a food surplus the concept of property was invented and soon after property was invented there became a need to distribute it among the community.  Of course shortly after that the institution of marriage probably appeared with the net result that the female of the species was reduced to property from the standpoint of the majority of the cultures that survived to build the wonderful world we live in now. 

More later....
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RE: Social Structure and the Femdom - 6/13/2006 11:04:55 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I would challenge this little thesis of yours on many levels. We do not know the present make up of those who have femdom female supremacy views or how many of them there are. You bring up many cultures worldwide and yet you do not know what the sexuality of these cultures of the past were. You assume that this is a growing phenomena, perhaps it is, perhaps it is not.

People may just be coming out about their sexuality more than in the past. If you have a culture that is strong on the maschismo you are not going to come out as wanting a femdom. It is like coming out as being gay in Nazi Germany... not a wise choice. Just because people do not express a certain desire does not mean it isn't there in a latent way.

I am a submissive female. I think there are many more submissive females than domme females in the lifestyle. The domme is the hardest creature to find in the world of BDSM. If your view was correct then there would be more dommes then there are. Just because there are many submissive men (I hear there are more sub men than dom men) doesnt mean they can find a domme to create this society you dream of. You would need a large number of each. Seeing that those "out" with these orientations are indeed a small subset of the larger society, well you get the point, it is not enough to turn male driven culture aside.

I do not believe in female supremacy or male supremacy. I do not care for the ideology of one gender being inherently superior to another.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 6/13/2006 11:06:33 PM >

_____________________________

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: Social Structure and the Femdom - 6/13/2006 11:07:48 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I think to take a particular fetish or group involved in bdsm and extrapolate from that a trend in society as a whole doesn't work. I don't see any femdom movement happening in society. And I would bet that most men in society at large don't want to serve a woman, or for that matter, have a woman serve them. It may not seem like it to you, but all of us involved in whatever bdsm avenue we choose are still a minority in society as a whole. 

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RE: Social Structure and the Femdom - 6/13/2006 11:08:03 PM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: christ344
Of course, given the nature of the typical dysfunctional family there is a wide range of fetishisms or deviancies that can occur.


This comment gave me a laugh. It's a perfect example of how negatively stereotypical the collective view on fetish is. While I will agree that some fetishes do find their origin via some childhood trauma or dysfunction, others are far more mysterious in nature.



quote:

ORIGINAL: christ344
The first aspect of this new fetishism seems to be an emphasis on the femdom female dominant.  As this is my own particular fetish, it is naturally the one that intrigues me most.  There seems to be an inordinate amount of men desiring the experience of a relationship in which the female is the dominant participant.  Though there have been exceptions (certain matriarchies in India/Aboriginal America and various others) this is by far an exception and in sharp contrast to the societal pattern for relationships for the last 100 years - if not the last 4000+ years.


Today I feel it's simply more transparent. Rest assured that the human species has always had its share of secretly servile males.


quote:

ORIGINAL: christ344

So everytime a man feels the need to serve a dominant female he should blame it all on that fateful decision to quit foraging for food and to start farming.  Why was this important? Because soon after we had a food surplus the concept of property was invented and soon after property was invented there became a need to distribute it among the community.  Of course shortly after that the institution of marriage probably appeared with the net result that the female of the species was reduced to property from the standpoint of the majority of the cultures that survived to build the wonderful world we live in now. 


Huh?



< Message edited by amayos -- 6/13/2006 11:24:24 PM >

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RE: Social Structure and the Femdom - 6/13/2006 11:55:26 PM   
Sensualips


Posts: 1013
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

My personal belief is that sexuality is neither right or wrong but instead is just a function of the imprinting that took place during our sexual developmental years. 


I can buy into this at some level.  As a middle schooler I sexual truth or dare with my best girl friend and read a lot of Penthouse forum.  Most stories revolved around forced sex or aggressive seduction, incestual themes, exhibitionism or voyeurism, or doctor/patient office/hooker principal/student authority scenarios -- and almost all were told from a male perspective.  Now, just guess what my favorite masturbation fantasies are to this day....

If only my dad had more secret bdsm type porn available to me.  Imagine the possibilities.

You lost me with all the femdom historical theory stuff though.

(in reply to christ344)
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RE: Social Structure and the Femdom - 6/14/2006 8:00:41 AM   
LeatherBentOne


Posts: 469
Joined: 9/27/2005
Status: offline 		I have to agree with amayos regarding your negative stereotype and that BDSM is just more transparent and visible today.  I'm wondering what "facts" you have to back up your claims.  I'm a lesbian FemDomme, didn't come from a "dysfunctional" family, was interested in BDSM as a teen but didn't become consistently active until 9 years ago, at the tender young age of 46.

Perhaps you're reading too much into the "FemDomme" theory stuff as Sensualips has stated especially since the most recorded history on BDSM mainly has to do with religion and forms of criminal punishment.  I'd be interested in your thoughts on lesbian FemDommes.  Sitting back and smiling on this one.

LeatherBentOne

(in reply to Sensualips)
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RE: Social Structure and the Femdom - 6/14/2006 8:22:41 AM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		I am a naturally Dominant female, I always have been this way I always will be this way. I have never had the desire to serve any male. It is as natural to me as breathing to be the one in control. Some would speculate that I am the result of the *perversion of society*, some might say I am the part of the natural evolution of humanity. I say that I am being ME.

I know many males that would love to serve a female. The reason they do not indulge in this desire is simply that they do not want to be seen as being *less masculine*. There are many *closeted* sub males out there and many more switches then will admit. I have had several Dominant males secretly admit that they desired to serve at a powerful woman's feet but knew if they did that, their subs would loose respect for them. I personally find men who see and treat women as equals or even superiors as the sexiest men alive. The knuckle dragging variety of male does nothing for me at all, I consider them brutish, although I know there are women who find them utterly adorable. To each their own.

Here again is the double-edged sword do we admit who/what we truly are and risk ridicule by society or do we remain passive and keep our desires secret and to ourselves? Humans have a strong desire to belong to a clan like unit and most will not take the risk. I for one will risk the ridicule. I cannot be something that I am not and I will not be submissive to any male. That is neither who I am nor who I want to be.

I truly believe in "To Thine Own self Be true".

~Lashra

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RE: Social Structure and the Femdom - 6/14/2006 8:26:53 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Fetishes are fetishes and appear to have been around for thousands of years and as for being deviant, I think it is irrelevant. Deviancey is only a problem if it is self harming or harms someone else. I don't think there is a need to justify them unless you need to justify themto yourself.

As for men being the dominant sex for 4,000 years I think the relationship between the sexes are a lot more subtle than that. Very few males have power in any generation and power is much more to do with wealth than sex. The top layer of western society has often been male dominated with arranging marriages to secure wealth and power. Often the young male has little choice who he shall marry since marriages were as much political pacts and merging of wealth. The lower layers of society women were often as free as the men because no wealth meant nothing to control. In north Germanic tribes in pre-christian times it is known that women had property rights which they didn't lose through marriage or lose if they divorced. Most contemporary perceptions on the gender politics have been formed by observing Victorian society because that had a convenient structure to be attacked but in earlier times things were far more fluid, the pendulum swinging too and fro. In Medieval times there are accounts of rich women kidnapping young men for their pleasure. Yes, on the face of it men have always appeared to hold outright power but sometimes its worth looking under the master's bed to see who is waiting for him to leave for the crusades.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/14/2006 8:28:07 AM >

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RE: Social Structure and the Femdom - 6/14/2006 8:46:25 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

I am a naturally Dominant female, I always have been this way I always will be this way. I have never had the desire to serve any male. It is as natural to me as breathing to be the one in control. Some would speculate that I am the result of the *perversion of society*, some might say I am the part of the natural evolution of humanity. I say that I am being ME.

I know many males that would love to serve a female. The reason they do not indulge in this desire is simply that they do not want to be seen as being *less masculine*. There are many *closeted* sub males out there and many more switches then will admit. I have had several Dominant males secretly admit that they desired to serve at a powerful woman's feet but knew if they did that, their subs would loose respect for them. I personally find men who see and treat women as equals or even superiors as the sexiest men alive. The knuckle dragging variety of male does nothing for me at all, I consider them brutish, although I know there are women who find them utterly adorable. To each their own.

Here again is the double-edged sword do we admit who/what we truly are and risk ridicule by society or do we remain passive and keep our desires secret and to ourselves? Humans have a strong desire to belong to a clan like unit and most will not take the risk. I for one will risk the ridicule. I cannot be something that I am not and I will not be submissive to any male. That is neither who I am nor who I want to be.

I truly believe in "To Thine Own self Be true".

~Lashra



The question isn't whether or not there are many sub men.,.. there are more submissive men than dom from what I have heard. The question becomes whether or not most women are domme. If a slice of the BDSM pie shows us anything is that there are far more submissive women than domme women. Maybe it is just a people thing.,.. most people are submissive sexually? You need the domme aspect and not just the male sub aspect to bring off a femdom culture worldwide...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Social Structure and the Femdom - 6/14/2006 8:54:30 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
I have to say I disagree with your article (although I do think it is extremely well written and articulate).
I think that blaming fetish or sexual orientation on imprinting or previous experience is IMO a cop out and avoids personal responsibility.  I also dislike the interpretation that my fetish can be blamed on something that was inflicted onto me.
 
I like and do what I do because I can.  Because it is who and what I am.  I had a happy childhood, wonderful life and the most adoring parents and immediate family.  No hate, no bigotry, no condemnation.  Just because I have a fetish for feathers, doesn't have anything to do with the fact I slept on goosedown pillows.
 
By blaming society and nurture, you are deny nature - in many cultures and even in the animal world - there are domiannt females... dominant males - it isnt dependant on thought process but just what maximises an efficiant cell.  You are also denying personal responsiblity and shifting blame or commend onto people that do not deserve it.
I hope I am making some sense.
 
Peace and Rapture


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...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: Social Structure and the Femdom - 6/14/2006 9:53:30 AM   
TNstepsout


Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		Interesting food to ponder, but I think your inferences are reaching a bit. I think in some cases fetishes can be a result of family dysfunction, but I don't think it's true for all or even a majority. People are just kinky. I've given up on trying to "get" all of he various kinks out there and understand why/how a persons life experiences created them. I think kink is a lot like food.  People have different tastes.

Now, given that same analogy, I don't think people are getting kinkier, there is just more access to information about various interests, so more people are now exposed to new things and people who like the same things they do so more people are talking about it. AND because people are now able to access, through the internet, groups of people with the same interests, your personal persepctive may be that more people are interested, but it's really just that you now are surrounded by people with that interest.

I think the interest in Fem Dommes is likely similar. In the past there may have been just as many men with that interest, but because the prevailing social norm for males was to be dominant, many of those men probably never felt comfortable exploring that it. If you think if it, the prevailing images of BDSM for centuries, have usually been of dominant woman.

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RE: Social Structure and the Femdom - 6/14/2006 1:36:29 PM   
christ344


Posts: 2
Joined: 6/10/2006
From: Neverwhere
Status: offline 		Apologies if anybody perceived a judgment of fetishes or deviancies to be negative.   Doing so supposes that sex serves a moral role or is subject to some litmus test of acceptibility that hinges on the percentage of people who view it as such making it the norm.  Thus what was "deviant" 100 years ago is much different than what is deviant now or will be deviant in the future.  The sex urge is an energy that can either be expressed openly or sublimated into something else.  The choice to sublimate or how to express it is an individual decision and not subject to anybody elses choices, opinions or views.

I think there is a decent amount of evidence to justify the position that there is an increase in deviancies (as opposed to the majority) and fetishisms in culture as a whole.  One study that addresses this is linked below.  While it is only the experience of one researcher it certainly provides a basis for the position that this increase is a cultural expression taking place now as opposed to the view that it has always been there.  Here is the article http://www.albany.edu/scj/jcjpc/vol8is2/beckmann.pdf

Whether or not a female chooses the submissive role or the dominant role there is still an underlying shift of power toward an individuals own personal power in deciding what is right for them - which is contrast to the status of women prior to the sexual revolution (if it can be called such). 

Lastly, I would disagree that there is now roughly the  same number of males desiring a femdom as there has been hisorically.   While there are always exceptions in any statistical study, it still seems to me that this particular archetype is much greater now than it has been in the past.

It is also interesting to consider the fact that Nazi Germany evolved because of a totalitarian regime that in many ways came into power by promoting a need to curb the sexual freedom being expressed at that particular time.  Pre-Hitler Germany was known to be a very sexually expressive time in which being gay lost much of the social stigma it had before that time.  Of course shortly after Hitler took power the sexual revolution in Germany was effectively terminated prematurely.

Regarding the power issues involved in Male/Female relations, I would have to say that the truth is that there should be no power roles.   The exchange of power only exists in a culture in which power is expressed in a societal context.   Or to put it another way, the desire to dominate or submit can only exist as a fantasy in which the social experience of most people is a continual one of either being dominated by or dominating others.   So does that mean a society in which these power struggles don't exist would be better? Probably not but it does give one pause to consider what a society would like without a hierarchial construction of power.


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RE: Social Structure and the Femdom - 6/14/2006 3:16:39 PM   
iliv2servher


Posts: 228
Joined: 5/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: christ344

[Much snipped



Given that we (most of us) are raised and nurtured by females, it only makes sense that we tend of focus on those early childhood images in terms of comfort and security.  Having known both genders who are attracted to dominant females only shows that this is true.


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RE: Social Structure and the Femdom - 6/14/2006 3:35:57 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: iliv2servher

quote:

ORIGINAL: christ344

[Much snipped



Given that we (most of us) are raised and nurtured by females, it only makes sense that we tend of focus on those early childhood images in terms of comfort and security.  Having known both genders who are attracted to dominant females only shows that this is true.



Let me throw in a little controversy. Males reared without a masculine role model are more likely to end up in prison than those who have had a masculine role model so a purely feminine role model is not a good thing for young males. There is also a tendency towards misogyny while doting on their maternal figure.

I know there are men out there that will say they haven't had a male role model and haven't got into trouble with the law and don't have misogynistic tendencies (which I accept can be very subjective) but the statistics and psychological reports show this to be the case (trend?). I have worked in prisons and and out of prison with offenders and it is quite remarkable how many prisoners had absent fathers and how many claim their mother to be the centre of their existence while completely ignoring her.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/14/2006 3:42:04 PM >

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RE: Social Structure and the Femdom - 6/15/2006 9:33:17 AM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


Males reared without a masculine role model are more likely to end up in prison than those who have had a masculine role model so a purely feminine role model is not a good thing for young males. There is also a tendency towards misogyny while doting on their maternal figure.

I know there are men out there that will say they haven't had a male role model and haven't got into trouble with the law and don't have misogynistic tendencies (which I accept can be very subjective) but the statistics and psychological reports show this to be the case (trend?). I have worked in prisons and and out of prison with offenders and it is quite remarkable how many prisoners had absent fathers and how many claim their mother to be the centre of their existence while completely ignoring her.


A very good point. The absence of the father—particularly the noble one—is indeed the locus from which much trouble springs in society. Children should benefit from the combined nurture and structure provided by the female and male parent.



< Message edited by amayos -- 6/15/2006 9:36:30 AM >

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