Interesting Articles on Free Speech (Full Version)

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dcnovice -> Interesting Articles on Free Speech (10/15/2012 4:37:17 PM)

Free speech has been a hot topic lately, even here in our CM universe. So I thought I'd share links to two perspectives I found fascinating:

Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech
In the Washington Post, law professor Jonathan Turley argues, "Free speech is dying in the Western world. While most people still enjoy considerable freedom of expression, this right, once a near-absolute, has become less defined and less dependable for those espousing controversial social, political or religious views. The decline of free speech has come not from any single blow but rather from thousands of paper cuts of well-intentioned exceptions designed to maintain social harmony."

Hate-Speech Hypocrites
Slate regular William Saletan writes, "If we’re going to preach freedom of expression around the world, we have to practice it. We have to scrap our hate-speech laws." He notes that Europe has any number of laws against anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial, yet permits mockery of Islam.

Have a look (if you like), then share your thoughts: Is free speech eroding? Are limits on expression an acceptable price to pay for social harmony and the rights of the oppressed? How should a society handle vile opinions, and who gets to decide what's vile? Is fear of violent reactions among Muslims cowing the Western world?



tazzygirl -> RE: Interesting Articles on Free Speech (10/15/2012 4:43:45 PM)

My feeling is we shouldnt have to legislate human decency... unfortunately that isnt the case.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Interesting Articles on Free Speech (10/15/2012 7:00:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
My feeling is we shouldnt have to legislate human decency... unfortunately that isnt the case.


The problem is, you can't legislate decency.

There is, too, a difference between simply stating your beliefs and saying something to intentionally piss someone off. The difference can be difficult to prove, but I think we can all agree that the two situations absolutely do happen.

At best, Political Correctness is legislating suppression of emotions/beliefs. Suppressing emotions can have physical and mental complications.

At what point does "tolerance" stop meaning "you can't say stupid shit," and start meaning "just ignore stupid shit other people say?"



kdsub -> RE: Interesting Articles on Free Speech (10/15/2012 7:11:04 PM)

There have been times in our history when what is considered decent then would be just the opposite of what we consider decent today…And if it were not for free speech nothing would have changed.

Butch



TheHeretic -> RE: Interesting Articles on Free Speech (10/15/2012 7:43:55 PM)

Great links, DC. I think the second author is dead on. ALL the hate speech laws should go.



tazzygirl -> RE: Interesting Articles on Free Speech (10/15/2012 8:54:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
My feeling is we shouldnt have to legislate human decency... unfortunately that isnt the case.


The problem is, you can't legislate decency.

There is, too, a difference between simply stating your beliefs and saying something to intentionally piss someone off. The difference can be difficult to prove, but I think we can all agree that the two situations absolutely do happen.

At best, Political Correctness is legislating suppression of emotions/beliefs. Suppressing emotions can have physical and mental complications.

At what point does "tolerance" stop meaning "you can't say stupid shit," and start meaning "just ignore stupid shit other people say?"



When that stupid shit is used to keep a group of people down.



tazzygirl -> RE: Interesting Articles on Free Speech (10/15/2012 8:55:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

There have been times in our history when what is considered decent then would be just the opposite of what we consider decent today…And if it were not for free speech nothing would have changed.

Butch


And time should bring with it enlightenment... yet it hasnt.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Interesting Articles on Free Speech (10/16/2012 3:45:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
My feeling is we shouldnt have to legislate human decency... unfortunately that isnt the case.

The problem is, you can't legislate decency.
There is, too, a difference between simply stating your beliefs and saying something to intentionally piss someone off. The difference can be difficult to prove, but I think we can all agree that the two situations absolutely do happen.
At best, Political Correctness is legislating suppression of emotions/beliefs. Suppressing emotions can have physical and mental complications.
At what point does "tolerance" stop meaning "you can't say stupid shit," and start meaning "just ignore stupid shit other people say?"

When that stupid shit is used to keep a group of people down.


Saying stupid shit doesn't keep other people down. They are just words. They only have an effect if you allow them to, or they are the only words you're ever hearing.

If people were to ignore others saying stupid shit, there would be an awful lot less violence in the world. I'm not one in favor of mocking another's religion, but I'm also not in favor of limiting your freedom to do so.



tazzygirl -> RE: Interesting Articles on Free Speech (10/16/2012 4:17:15 AM)

And I argue that you are wrong. Saying stupid shit can get laws changed, minds changed, beliefs changed. Saying stupid shit can change a whole generation's thought process. Saying stupid shit isnt just the words, its what they invoke.

http://takimag.com/article/the_talk_nonblack_version_john_derbyshire#axzz29QygU9U4

In the highly controversial column, written for Taki's Magazine on Thursday, Derbyshire suggests white and Asian parents talk to their children about what makes black people different and the threats posed to their safety by black people. Five percent of black people are "ferociously hostile" to whites, according to Derbyshire, and most are willing to be hostile. Derbyshire advises parents to tell their children not to live or stay long in predominantly black communities.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2012/04/national-review-fires-john-derbyshire-119887.html

And, so you can understand the mindset of those who read such "stupidity"

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=77404

I am not saying his advice is ALL bad.... but there is enough misinformation and lies contained within the sane advice to make such a piece dangerous.

So while you believe stupidity shouldnt be monitored, consider the fact that you (appear) to be a white male, you have half the system beat already.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Interesting Articles on Free Speech (10/16/2012 4:26:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
And I argue that you are wrong. Saying stupid shit can get laws changed, minds changed, beliefs changed. Saying stupid shit can change a whole generation's thought process. Saying stupid shit isnt just the words, its what they invoke.


And right there you are making the point about it being the only shit they ever hear. Thanks for supporting my assertion. [8D]

kdsub made a similar, but opposing, point in Post#4.
    quote:

    There have been times in our history when what is considered decent then would be just the opposite of what we consider decent today…And if it were not for free speech nothing would have changed.



tazzygirl -> RE: Interesting Articles on Free Speech (10/16/2012 4:41:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
And I argue that you are wrong. Saying stupid shit can get laws changed, minds changed, beliefs changed. Saying stupid shit can change a whole generation's thought process. Saying stupid shit isnt just the words, its what they invoke.


And right there you are making the point about it being the only shit they ever hear. Thanks for supporting my assertion. [8D]

kdsub made a similar, but opposing, point in Post#4.
    quote:

    There have been times in our history when what is considered decent then would be just the opposite of what we consider decent today…And if it were not for free speech nothing would have changed.





And free speech can send that back. They have every right to say what they please. And I have every right to tell them no.

They have every right to protest whatever "class" they desire, and countries have every right to keep them out.

Being a citizen of the US does not afford anyone any special rights in any other country. I am all for calling an idiot an idiot when he/she is acting like an idiot. But calling someone an idiot because of skin color, religion, sexual orientation or just because you dont like them, is insanity at its best.




Politesub53 -> RE: Interesting Articles on Free Speech (10/16/2012 4:53:09 AM)

Thanks for the links DC...... I will have a read and then disagree with Firm on hate laws.....[8D]



kdsub -> RE: Interesting Articles on Free Speech (10/16/2012 8:58:33 AM)

quote:

And time should bring with it enlightenment... yet it hasnt.


Sure it has...but slow and steady.. the world is a better place every day. There will be set backs as always but then we will move forward again. Don't be so pessimistic tazzy...people are good... on the whole.

Butch



tazzygirl -> RE: Interesting Articles on Free Speech (10/16/2012 10:33:33 AM)

quote:

Don't be so pessimistic tazzy...people are good... on the whole.


Some are....

Some are rotten to the core.



hot4bondage -> RE: Interesting Articles on Free Speech (10/16/2012 11:33:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Don't be so pessimistic tazzy...people are good... on the whole.


Some are....

Some are rotten to the core.


Those might be the type of people Jefferson had in mind when he said that light is the best disinfectant.



tazzygirl -> RE: Interesting Articles on Free Speech (10/16/2012 11:47:11 AM)

Those type of people were never in the dark, and never will be.



Moonhead -> RE: Interesting Articles on Free Speech (10/16/2012 12:28:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
At best, Political Correctness is legislating suppression of emotions/beliefs. Suppressing emotions can have physical and mental complications.

Only if you're such a thin skinned pussy that you'll have a nervous breakdown if somebody stops you saying "n****r" or "f****t" on the radio.
Most of what gets criticised by self styled free thinkers as "political correctness" is just good manners. Is being a rude cunt really something worth bragging about?



YN -> RE: Interesting Articles on Free Speech (10/16/2012 1:20:45 PM)

If "freedom of speech" means the responsibility of saying whatever the government and society approves, then North Korea has free speech.

Europeans burnt each other at the stake for claiming the planet was round, the King or the Pope were not God,'s avatars, or that the earth revolved around the Sun, based on such thinking.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Interesting Articles on Free Speech (10/16/2012 1:36:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
And free speech can send that back. They have every right to say what they please. And I have every right to tell them no.
They have every right to protest whatever "class" they desire, and countries have every right to keep them out.


Must be a full moon tonight. I'm in agreement.

quote:

Being a citizen of the US does not afford anyone any special rights in any other country. I am all for calling an idiot an idiot when he/she is acting like an idiot. But calling someone an idiot because of skin color, religion, sexual orientation or just because you dont like them, is insanity at its best.


If people are calling someone else an idiot simply because of skin color, religion, sexual orientation, political beliefs, etc., they are the ones who need to get called out for being idiots. Allowing people to say what they truly feel is a great way to find out who that person is, and once you know, you can let them fade into obscurity.



tazzygirl -> RE: Interesting Articles on Free Speech (10/16/2012 1:56:09 PM)

And Jones said exactly what he felt. So, if based upon his words, another country doesnt want him, how is that any different?



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