RE: Don't waste your time watching the 10/16 'debate'... (Full Version)

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subrob1967 -> RE: Don't waste your time watching the 10/16 'debate'... (10/16/2012 3:00:16 PM)

Obama's already won the debate, the story of his miraculous comeback has already been wirtten, and the talking points have been distributed.




Yachtie -> RE: Don't waste your time watching the 10/16 'debate'... (10/16/2012 3:10:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Obama's already won the debate, the story of his miraculous comeback has already been wirtten, and the talking points have been distributed.



Yeah. You can see it all here.




LookieNoNookie -> RE: Don't waste your time watching the 10/16 'debate'... (10/16/2012 3:42:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

http://gawker.com/5951977/leaked-debate-agreement-shows-both-obama-and-romney-are-sniveling-cowards

It's so stage-managed, there's no real point in watching, is there?




Excellent point....ain't much new under the sun is there?




LookieNoNookie -> RE: Don't waste your time watching the 10/16 'debate'... (10/16/2012 3:43:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I'm confuzzled, Fargle. Your link says the rules include a prohibition on showing non-speaker reactions, which has given us split screen shots for the first two, of four, debates. If nobody is paying attention to the rules from the MOU, wouldn't they just add spice to the debate drinking games?

Me? I double checked that the recorder is set. Must see TV. If the President bombs again, the First Lady should start redecorating the Chicago place now, so it will be ready for them in January.

I may well wind up making a decision based on this debate as well. They'll be covering the social issue stuff here, and there is a chance Romney could lose my vote to Johnson. (The luxury of living in an overwhelmingly Democrat state.)


I think what he's suggesting is, the debates are rigged and frankly....I wouldn't be surprised.




LookieNoNookie -> RE: Don't waste your time watching the 10/16 'debate'... (10/16/2012 3:45:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
there is a chance Romney could lose my vote to Johnson.

Are you aware of Johnson's stance on free-trade and immigration? He wants to get rid of barriers plus make it easier for legal immigrants to come here and take US jobs away from Americans.
This is a verbatim quote from his website:
"Eliminate needless barriers to free trade and make it easier for would-be legal immigrants to apply for work visas."
source: http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/issues/economy-and-taxes


Don't you understand that actually allowing free trade helps everyone out? It increases competition and allows for a more efficient allocation of scarce resources.

And, are you going to tell me that Conservatives are against all immigration, even legal immigration? I don't think you understand Conservatives.


Desi, there's pain involved but, a world, balanced is trade, balanced.

Few get that.

(And few {here} want the associated pain).




LookieNoNookie -> RE: Don't waste your time watching the 10/16 'debate'... (10/16/2012 3:46:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

Don't you understand that actually allowing free trade helps everyone out? It increases competition....


...which creates unemployment, promotes wage enslavement, exploitation of workers and traps people in poverty.

The problem with free trade and competition is that there's always someone bigger than you with more money and more control and at the other end people left with nothing bar welfare.

The people in the middle, i.e. the middle class are always going to get squeezed.


Ergo my aforementioned point.




LookieNoNookie -> RE: Don't waste your time watching the 10/16 'debate'... (10/16/2012 3:47:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Well, there is no such thing as free trade.   And, after all, not every nation has read and understood Adam Smith, who I figure as holding the highest customs office in England at the time he wrote his book, considered it a masturbatory piece.  I certainly do.  As I do Ayn Rand and her industrial terrorism asswipe. 


There could be.....there can be....but you're correct...there will likely never....be.




stellauk -> RE: Don't waste your time watching the 10/16 'debate'... (10/16/2012 5:10:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Don't you understand that actually allowing free trade helps everyone out? It increases competition....

...which creates unemployment, promotes wage enslavement, exploitation of workers and traps people in poverty.


How does it do any of those things?



It starts with culture. Both the United States and Britain are part of English language culture - this is a culture the whole world wants to share and be a part of. People all over the world know who Elvis Presley is, the Beatles, you can buy Coca Cola pretty much all over the world.

Yet visit any major city in the US or UK and you will find people sleeping on the street, you will find people who are destitute, you will find people who are malnourished, people who are trapped in poverty for generations. You will find people with different levels of impairment, both physical and mental who are either waiting for treatment (in the UK) or unable to pay their medical bills (in the US).

Some twenty years ago out of every four dollars spent in the world, one dollar went back to the US. Today the United States has a national debt of $16 trillion.

Now you can - if you adhere to a belief in the free market ideology - claim that some people don't aspire like others. This is why people on welfare are stigmatized - they don't aspire, and they don't produce. But this isn't about people per se, it's about opportunities. That is what all this is about - some people either cannot make use of existing opportunities or the opportunities simply don't exist. This applies just as much to the trading floor on Wall Street or the Stock Exchange as it does to people at the very bottom of society.

Competition invariably involves a denial of opportunity for someone. What works better is cooperation. This is why the free market economy and free trade arguments are inherently flawed. There's the assumption that people are operating under the same or similar values, which isn't the case.

Some degree of free trade is necessary in certain fields, but not as the basis to run an economy or society.

We have just had a global economic crisis. Here we have austerity measures and yet have to bail out banks and pay ever increasing subsidies for our railways.

Between the period 1990 and 2005 I lived in Eastern Europe, and spent the most important years in Polish history living in Poland. I saw the transition after the fall of the Berlin Wall from the early stages to what it is now. When everyone was celebrating the collapse of communism I was predicting a similar collapse of the free market economy.

Many people have laughed at me for my predictions and opinions.

Now take a look around you and tell me what you see. That global economic crisis to me if anything was the collapse of the free market economy.

quote:

The problem with free trade and competition is that there's always someone bigger than you with more money and more control and at the other end people left with nothing bar welfare.
The people in the middle, i.e. the middle class are always going to get squeezed.


And, the solution would be....?


Ouch that's a dangerous question, as I'm somewhat of an evolved Marxist.

However... picking up the pieces would be a great start.

What can you do? What do you enjoy doing? Where are you going in life? these are three of the most important questions in life. Everybody asks themselves these questions, and we devote our lives to finding the answers.

I feel we need to work towards more of a needs based economy where people have free access to opportunities - not equal opportunities, but free access to opportunities. We have to pay a lot more attention to cultural development, giving people opportunities to develop their creativity and share it with others.

Business isn't really about money, it's about ideas. But then again if you look at it a certain way business has got much more to do with cooperation than it has with competition.

I very much adhere to the Marxist principle of the worker owning the means of their production so that they can support themselves through sustainable occupation. Sure, having millions of people out of work doesn't affect the annual figures of the corporations or their profit margins but it sure hurts society.

We have got to rediscover a sense of responsibility for our communities and society. Expecting other people (the mythical 'someone else') or politicians to shoulder that responsibility doesn't work, neither does blaming them.

We fail at poverty and welfare because we don't do enough. Giving people money because they have no other income isn't enough. It doesn't address the issue of the lack of opportunities or why that person is unable to make use of existing opportunities. We have to accept that some people cannot and should not work but generally speaking we all need to have a sense of responsibility towards the community or society we live in.




TheHeretic -> RE: Don't waste your time watching the 10/16 'debate'... (10/16/2012 7:57:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I'm confuzzled, Fargle. Your link says the rules include a prohibition on showing non-speaker reactions, which has given us split screen shots for the first two, of four, debates. If nobody is paying attention to the rules from the MOU, wouldn't they just add spice to the debate drinking games?

Me? I double checked that the recorder is set. Must see TV. If the President bombs again, the First Lady should start redecorating the Chicago place now, so it will be ready for them in January.

I may well wind up making a decision based on this debate as well. They'll be covering the social issue stuff here, and there is a chance Romney could lose my vote to Johnson. (The luxury of living in an overwhelmingly Democrat state.)


I think what he's suggesting is, the debates are rigged and frankly....I wouldn't be surprised.



That didn't look very rigged to me tonight, Lookie.

But I think the First Lady can hold off on scheduling that meeting to look at fabric swatches.




tazzygirl -> RE: Don't waste your time watching the 10/16 'debate'... (10/16/2012 8:41:50 PM)

Once again, Rich, we agree.




Lucylastic -> RE: Don't waste your time watching the 10/16 'debate'... (10/16/2012 8:50:21 PM)

YayThirded:)
nice RIch:)




DomKen -> RE: Don't waste your time watching the 10/16 'debate'... (10/16/2012 8:53:21 PM)

Funny how Mittt agreed to these rules but broke them the very first chance he had. It's almost like he thinks rules don't apply to him. Not that these rules were good or bad just that if he agreed to them, and likely demanded them, he should have at least tried to obey them. I also loved Crowley making it clear to him he wasn't going to get the last word on every subject, another instance where he clearly wasn't used to such treatment.




Lucylastic -> RE: Don't waste your time watching the 10/16 'debate'... (10/16/2012 8:54:57 PM)

Best Presidential debate Evah!
of course, I have only watched maybe six....




TheHeretic -> RE: Don't waste your time watching the 10/16 'debate'... (10/16/2012 9:09:48 PM)

I don't think I have ever seen anything quite like that level of aggression, Lucy. Excellent performances by both sides. This was not the debate I expected to see.




DomKen -> RE: Don't waste your time watching the 10/16 'debate'... (10/16/2012 9:10:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Best Presidential debate Evah!
of course, I have only watched maybe six....


I thought very highly of the Clinton/Dole dabtes. Dole wasn't a masterful speaker but he was something of a policy wonk and their deabtes were pretty substantive. This thing tonight was simply an honest man dealing with a serial liar.




Lucylastic -> RE: Don't waste your time watching the 10/16 'debate'... (10/16/2012 9:12:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I don't think I have ever seen anything quite like that level of aggression, Lucy. Excellent performances by both sides. This was not the debate I expected to see.

Aggression on both sides!
It was needed....The better man won, imnshe[;)]




Lucylastic -> RE: Don't waste your time watching the 10/16 'debate'... (10/16/2012 9:13:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Best Presidential debate Evah!
of course, I have only watched maybe six....


I thought very highly of the Clinton/Dole dabtes. Dole wasn't a masterful speaker but he was something of a policy wonk and their deabtes were pretty substantive. This thing tonight was simply an honest man dealing with a serial liar.

Heh... it most certainly was..




TheHeretic -> RE: Don't waste your time watching the 10/16 'debate'... (10/16/2012 9:28:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

This thing tonight was simply an honest man dealing with a serial liar.

Heh... it most certainly was..


LOL. Thanks for quoting that, Lucy. I'd use the same description, but with the assigned roles reversed.




leonine -> RE: Don't waste your time watching the 10/16 'debate'... (10/16/2012 9:29:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Don't you understand that actually allowing free trade helps everyone out? It increases competition....

...which creates unemployment, promotes wage enslavement, exploitation of workers and traps people in poverty.


How does it do any of those things?


For example:

When the trans-continental railroad was opened, everyone predicted wonderful benefits for the West Coast. What they actually got was an economic slump as their industries were undercut by East Coast factory products.

If they'd been a separate country from the East Coast, they could have imposed tarifs to keep their industries competitive and their economy stable. This wouldn't (as the usual argument goes) have prevented them reaching the same level of efficiency as the more advanced East Coast industries: on the contrary, it would have made it worthwhile for them to establish efficient factories of their own, inside the tarif barriers.

Of course, such barriers are sometimes just a protection for the featherbedded. But the people who argue that usually turn out to be the ones who would make money if imports were cheaper.




DomKen -> RE: Don't waste your time watching the 10/16 'debate'... (10/16/2012 10:19:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Best Presidential debate Evah!
of course, I have only watched maybe six....


I thought very highly of the Clinton/Dole dabtes. Dole wasn't a masterful speaker but he was something of a policy wonk and their deabtes were pretty substantive. This thing tonight was simply an honest man dealing with a serial liar.

Heh... it most certainly was..

That moment when Obama asked Romney to "please proceed" was the moment when Romney saw his campaign flash before his eyes.




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