RE: Drilling

RE: Drilling (Full Version)

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LookieNoNookie -> RE: Drilling (10/19/2012 3:58:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subspaceseven But the oil companies are sitting on over 7000 approved permits, the only ones stopping them from drilling is themselves, hence less oil more profits Yeah...I know....and the car companies paid millions of dollars 30 years ago to stop patents on carburetors that would have enabled vehicles to get 273 miles per gallon. And, there were THOUSANDS of oil tankers held off the coast during the oil embargo so that we couldn't get oil. Listen, here's the facts...the Arabs were pissed at us for what we'd done in and with Israel, add to that we'd opted out of the Brettonwood agreements completely fucking up the US currency (which then inflated theirs...but deflated ours) so they said "lookie here....you're making our shit cost more because the US dollar is the world currency, that which we sell our goods in and for, i.e, buy airplanes, concrete and such sooooooo....we'd like a smidge more". And THAT is what happened. (The clue store is open...and you're far too young to have one so....save your pennies).

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Drilling (10/19/2012 4:04:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk I don't even know if the facts he was spouting was correct or not. But I will stipulate for discussing purposes they are. The typical Republican mantra is that Gov't should not be involved in business. However, Gov. Romney and all other Republican commentators seem to want Gov't somehow involved in helping them drill for more oil. Why? If the original premise that Gov't should stay out of business is true then shouldn't be also true that the Oil Business should develop their own resources and not look for Gov't handouts of land that are owned by all the people to increase their profits? It is strange dichotomy to hear on one hand that investing in Sylondra(sp?) is bad but that giving resources that are owned by all the people of the US to Oil Companies is ok........Why shouldn't the people then consider Oil Companies to be the ultimate Welfare Queens? Actually, what Romney has said over and over is...."let's let them drill....let's produce our own energy...let's be energy sufficient". He never said "let's pay for it with govt. stipends" he said "let's go get it". The market will. I concur. I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying we were paying for it. What we are doing is taking the treasure that we own as a country and giving it away for nickels. Its just not oil I am talking about either. Kasich in Ohio is wanting to give the rights to drill on state parks for natural gas away as if they aren't worth something. Another alledged "businessman" politician. Save us from those. We will always pay for oil. Unless you have a well, of your very own, you're going to pay the market price. But guess what? When we produce enough to ship to others, the "balance of trade" shifts. When you pay 1 dollar of debt off, you have an actual gain of 2 dollars in your income (no, I'm not going to explain it...it's simple economics). Now...when we aren't buying 50 bucks worth of oil from (ANYONE ELSE).....that's a 100 dollar change in the balance of trade. That means jobs stay here even if China can make jeans for less because....we have more money in the bank. It's MATH!!!!!! And when that happens....there's more (HERE) for you to make! THAT is how it works!

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Drilling (10/19/2012 4:08:39 PM)
Jebus!

vincentML -> RE: Drilling (10/19/2012 5:49:54 PM)
quote: You segued to something that isn't the same. But, where does that cleanup fund come from? Who is dumping cash into it? I'd be surprised if the Oil Companies weren't paying some sort of "premium" for that. But, it's yet another case of unintended consequences from government intrusion. Yup, you're right. From the oil companies, so Chevron was justified. A lesson learned.[:)] Interestingly, in 2009 the State Legislature diverted $200 million into general funds for other purposes. That may be why my Chevron dealer is in such a pickle.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Drilling (10/19/2012 9:25:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: You segued to something that isn't the same. But, where does that cleanup fund come from? Who is dumping cash into it? I'd be surprised if the Oil Companies weren't paying some sort of "premium" for that. But, it's yet another case of unintended consequences from government intrusion. Yup, you're right. From the oil companies, so Chevron was justified. A lesson learned.[:)] Interestingly, in 2009 the State Legislature diverted $200 million into general funds for other purposes. That may be why my Chevron dealer is in such a pickle. The original question asked was about drilling issues. The numbnut that fucked up the gas delivery could have been from any oil company that drilled anywhere. So, it's not the same thing, even though it did involve an oil company. Why did they divert $200M? What was that $200M used for?

DomYngBlk -> RE: Drilling (10/20/2012 6:05:08 AM)
Nice try but going the opposite way and not answering the post is fairly typical of a romney supporter and republicans in general. IF we are to open lands up for drilling purposes we should be getting a larger cut of the action. Thats simple isn't it? Or do you think the poor old oil companies wouldn't think there would still be profit in that? lol.....There are plenty of lands they can purchase and explore. Its a free country. But if they want to delve into the treasure of the people of the United States the entry fee is substantial. None of this will stop your equation at all. In fact, huge swaths of those permits aren't being used at all right now. Want to venture a guess why? If your math held up shouldn't they be forced to drill? That way our balance of payments would be lowered even more? Why didn't I hear that out of Mittens mouth? All you have is the same old tired ideas that I read about when I look back well into the 80's. They've been tried without success. Its time to move aside and let other ideas take control. But, I am sure you can't understand all of this. Simple really.

DomYngBlk -> RE: Drilling (10/20/2012 6:12:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk I don't even know if the facts he was spouting was correct or not. But I will stipulate for discussing purposes they are. The typical Republican mantra is that Gov't should not be involved in business. However, Gov. Romney and all other Republican commentators seem to want Gov't somehow involved in helping them drill for more oil. Why? If the original premise that Gov't should stay out of business is true then shouldn't be also true that the Oil Business should develop their own resources and not look for Gov't handouts of land that are owned by all the people to increase their profits? It is strange dichotomy to hear on one hand that investing in Sylondra(sp?) is bad but that giving resources that are owned by all the people of the US to Oil Companies is ok........Why shouldn't the people then consider Oil Companies to be the ultimate Welfare Queens? An interesting conundrum but, one that requires actual knowledge about facts. 1) The govt. doesn't drill. 2) The govt. doesn't pay companies to drill. 3) The govt. leases land to oil companies so that oil companies can drill on said land, and it's for a "duration". Once that "duration" ceases, a new lease is then required by the oil companies, from the U.S. Govt. to allow them to continue pumping oil from said lease (and dispersing revenues to the U.S. govt. based on current market conditions). 4) When they (private companies) drill, the govt. gets a piece of the action, via the lease. 5) If there is no oil produced, the govt. still gets revenue from the lease, but no revenue from produced oil as a tariff. I am telling you this simple fact. Its a sucker deal crafted by and for Oil. The people are getting fucked. The amount of lease money , plus royalties doesn't even begin to cover what that oil and land is worth. Any common business person could tell you that. The program as it is now is nothing but welfare for Oil. And allowing them to sit on the leases as prices rise? Fuck that. Use it or lose it. I think they should all be revoked and rebidding begin on those lands. Lets be business like in that approach. And, I am not just picking on Oil. Any resource from grass, to titanium to uranium to copper......if it is on Federal lands......the people's property isn't given away for free.

mnottertail -> RE: Drilling (10/20/2012 6:27:53 AM)
quote: But guess what? When we produce enough to ship to others, the "balance of trade" shifts. We are shipping to others, nearly all of it, and then importing for domestic use. You can see where our balance of trade is. quote: Now...when we aren't buying 50 bucks worth of oil from (ANYONE ELSE).....that's a 100 dollar change in the balance of trade. That means jobs stay here even if China can make jeans for less because....we have more money in the bank. But we are buying the oil from overseas. So, the math isnt working, you may check our pockets, there is no money in the bank. (well, there is in banks, but it ain't nothing we can get our hands on).

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Drilling (10/20/2012 7:27:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail quote: But guess what? When we produce enough to ship to others, the "balance of trade" shifts. We are shipping to others, nearly all of it, and then importing for domestic use. You can see where our balance of trade is. quote: Now...when we aren't buying 50 bucks worth of oil from (ANYONE ELSE).....that's a 100 dollar change in the balance of trade. That means jobs stay here even if China can make jeans for less because....we have more money in the bank. But we are buying the oil from overseas. So, the math isnt working, you may check our pockets, there is no money in the bank. (well, there is in banks, but it ain't nothing we can get our hands on). We are exporting gasoline and diesel fuel, not oil, because the countries we ship the fuel to don't have refining capacity and it's more profitable for our manufacturers to do so. We are buying oil from overseas and Canada because we do not currently produce enough oil for our own needs. When we do, we will export both oil, unrefined, and fuel.

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Drilling (10/20/2012 7:28:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk Nice try but going the opposite way and not answering the post is fairly typical of a romney supporter and republicans in general. IF we are to open lands up for drilling purposes we should be getting a larger cut of the action. Thats simple isn't it? Or do you think the poor old oil companies wouldn't think there would still be profit in that? lol.....There are plenty of lands they can purchase and explore. Its a free country. But if they want to delve into the treasure of the people of the United States the entry fee is substantial. None of this will stop your equation at all. In fact, huge swaths of those permits aren't being used at all right now. Want to venture a guess why? If your math held up shouldn't they be forced to drill? That way our balance of payments would be lowered even more? Why didn't I hear that out of Mittens mouth? All you have is the same old tired ideas that I read about when I look back well into the 80's. They've been tried without success. Its time to move aside and let other ideas take control. But, I am sure you can't understand all of this. Simple really. Yep....waaaaaaay over my head.

mnottertail -> RE: Drilling (10/20/2012 7:29:40 AM)
Yeah, thanks for the heads up, cuz I obviously know that. Thats why I posted the problem that exists that makes it so isn't happening. We are net loss.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Drilling (10/20/2012 2:46:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk I am telling you this simple fact. Its a sucker deal crafted by and for Oil. The people are getting fucked. The amount of lease money , plus royalties doesn't even begin to cover what that oil and land is worth. Any common business person could tell you that. The land is still owned by the Government, so the full value of the land doesn't need to be compensated for. But, even taking your idea a step further, what are you losing by the Oil Companies drilling on public lands (and paying the US Government a royalty)? Remember, too, that all that is being given is the right to drill for the oil. They aren't getting the land. quote: The program as it is now is nothing but welfare for Oil. And allowing them to sit on the leases as prices rise? Fuck that. Use it or lose it. I think they should all be revoked and rebidding begin on those lands. Lets be business like in that approach. Is it possible that the cost to recover that oil is high enough to make it not economical at the current pricing? Nooooo, that can't be it. Obviously, they are business schmucks, and don't understand reality. quote: And, I am not just picking on Oil. Any resource from grass, to titanium to uranium to copper......if it is on Federal lands......the people's property isn't given away for free. It isn't given away for free. Unless someone drills for that oil, it has no current worth. If Oil companies didn't drill for that oil, how much further into debt would we be?

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Drilling (10/20/2012 6:23:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk I am telling you this simple fact. Its a sucker deal crafted by and for Oil. The people are getting fucked. The amount of lease money , plus royalties doesn't even begin to cover what that oil and land is worth. Any common business person could tell you that. The land is still owned by the Government, so the full value of the land doesn't need to be compensated for. But, even taking your idea a step further, what are you losing by the Oil Companies drilling on public lands (and paying the US Government a royalty)? Remember, too, that all that is being given is the right to drill for the oil. They aren't getting the land. quote: The program as it is now is nothing but welfare for Oil. And allowing them to sit on the leases as prices rise? Fuck that. Use it or lose it. I think they should all be revoked and rebidding begin on those lands. Lets be business like in that approach. Is it possible that the cost to recover that oil is high enough to make it not economical at the current pricing? Nooooo, that can't be it. Obviously, they are business schmucks, and don't understand reality. That's what I ultimately came up with too Desi, because DYB's thesis was so mathematically compelling. quote: And, I am not just picking on Oil. Any resource from grass, to titanium to uranium to copper......if it is on Federal lands......the people's property isn't given away for free. It isn't given away for free. Unless someone drills for that oil, it has no current worth. If Oil companies didn't drill for that oil, how much further into debt would we be?

mnottertail -> RE: Drilling (10/21/2012 2:12:07 PM)
quote: Is it possible that the cost to recover that oil is high enough to make it not economical at the current pricing? Nooooo, that can't be it. Obviously, they are business schmucks, and don't understand reality. That's right no it cant be it, they get welfare prices for government land, thats why so much is fallow, Williston (private lands) are getting from $400 to $4000 per acre land rent and up to 3/8ths no sharing on royalty, they clean it up. The government (which is us, is providing massive corporate welfare on these cheap ass leases, including Oil, Spectrum, et al.)

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Drilling (10/21/2012 3:12:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail quote: Is it possible that the cost to recover that oil is high enough to make it not economical at the current pricing? Nooooo, that can't be it. Obviously, they are business schmucks, and don't understand reality. That's right no it cant be it, they get welfare prices for government land, thats why so much is fallow, Williston (private lands) are getting from $400 to $4000 per acre land rent and up to 3/8ths no sharing on royalty, they clean it up. The government (which is us, is providing massive corporate welfare on these cheap ass leases, including Oil, Spectrum, et al.) 35 billion a year (in 2010): http://www.energyanswered.org/questions/how-much-do-u.s.-oil-companies-pay-in-royalties-to-government "Between 2000 and 2006, natural gas production from U.S. shale formations grew an average of 17 percent per year, and an average of 48 percent per year from 2006 to 2010." Ergo, chances are it's nearly double that amount by today. Considering we spend approx. 400 billion a year in fuel and we import nearly half of our oil today (as opposed to in excess of 70% just 5 years ago), my guess is this works out to a roughly 35% royalty on the 1/2 of 400 billion we currently spend. Hardly a trifle. And considering an increasing share of the oil that's currently being found in the United States is on private land, the royalty is likely closer to 45%.

DomYngBlk -> RE: Drilling (10/21/2012 5:25:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk I am telling you this simple fact. Its a sucker deal crafted by and for Oil. The people are getting fucked. The amount of lease money , plus royalties doesn't even begin to cover what that oil and land is worth. Any common business person could tell you that. The land is still owned by the Government, so the full value of the land doesn't need to be compensated for. But, even taking your idea a step further, what are you losing by the Oil Companies drilling on public lands (and paying the US Government a royalty)? Remember, too, that all that is being given is the right to drill for the oil. They aren't getting the land. quote: The program as it is now is nothing but welfare for Oil. And allowing them to sit on the leases as prices rise? Fuck that. Use it or lose it. I think they should all be revoked and rebidding begin on those lands. Lets be business like in that approach. Is it possible that the cost to recover that oil is high enough to make it not economical at the current pricing? Nooooo, that can't be it. Obviously, they are business schmucks, and don't understand reality. quote: And, I am not just picking on Oil. Any resource from grass, to titanium to uranium to copper......if it is on Federal lands......the people's property isn't given away for free. It isn't given away for free. Unless someone drills for that oil, it has no current worth. If Oil companies didn't drill for that oil, how much further into debt would we be? I am not advocating full compensation. I just want the best deal the Gov't can get. What I am losing is the value of the Oil that is being drilled and sold. Or the timber being cut or the copper being mined. Its a sweetheart deal on those products that the Gov't has too easily granted to Industry. Oh so, you are saying the Oil Companies are complete idiots and leased land with no idea when it might be commercially viable to drill? Are you serious? In many instances the Gov't tracts of land are adjacent to what the Oil Companies already own(ANWR). One is viable but its sister next door isn't? LOL...... Lease money is a pittance. Tell me again why we should use it now and not hold onto it since the value will only go up?

DomYngBlk -> RE: Drilling (10/21/2012 5:28:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail quote: Is it possible that the cost to recover that oil is high enough to make it not economical at the current pricing? Nooooo, that can't be it. Obviously, they are business schmucks, and don't understand reality. That's right no it cant be it, they get welfare prices for government land, thats why so much is fallow, Williston (private lands) are getting from $400 to $4000 per acre land rent and up to 3/8ths no sharing on royalty, they clean it up. The government (which is us, is providing massive corporate welfare on these cheap ass leases, including Oil, Spectrum, et al.) 35 billion a year (in 2010): http://www.energyanswered.org/questions/how-much-do-u.s.-oil-companies-pay-in-royalties-to-government "Between 2000 and 2006, natural gas production from U.S. shale formations grew an average of 17 percent per year, and an average of 48 percent per year from 2006 to 2010." Ergo, chances are it's nearly double that amount by today. Considering we spend approx. 400 billion a year in fuel and we import nearly half of our oil today (as opposed to in excess of 70% just 5 years ago), my guess is this works out to a roughly 35% royalty on the 1/2 of 400 billion we currently spend. Hardly a trifle. And considering an increasing share of the oil that's currently being found in the United States is on private land, the royalty is likely closer to 45%. Thanks, proved my point for me. Its obviously well worth it to drill at 45%......We should start there and negotiate splits on margins.....I am trying to help our debt situation and you don't want to. That is awfully Republican of you....LOL

DomYngBlk -> RE: Drilling (10/21/2012 5:30:47 PM)
Lookie Not to burst the bubble on your numbers but "fuel" and a barrel of oil aren't the same thing my friend...Chemistry is your friend....

DesideriScuri -> RE: Drilling (10/21/2012 7:13:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk I am telling you this simple fact. Its a sucker deal crafted by and for Oil. The people are getting fucked. The amount of lease money , plus royalties doesn't even begin to cover what that oil and land is worth. Any common business person could tell you that. The land is still owned by the Government, so the full value of the land doesn't need to be compensated for. But, even taking your idea a step further, what are you losing by the Oil Companies drilling on public lands (and paying the US Government a royalty)? Remember, too, that all that is being given is the right to drill for the oil. They aren't getting the land. quote: The program as it is now is nothing but welfare for Oil. And allowing them to sit on the leases as prices rise? Fuck that. Use it or lose it. I think they should all be revoked and rebidding begin on those lands. Lets be business like in that approach. Is it possible that the cost to recover that oil is high enough to make it not economical at the current pricing? Nooooo, that can't be it. Obviously, they are business schmucks, and don't understand reality. quote: And, I am not just picking on Oil. Any resource from grass, to titanium to uranium to copper......if it is on Federal lands......the people's property isn't given away for free. It isn't given away for free. Unless someone drills for that oil, it has no current worth. If Oil companies didn't drill for that oil, how much further into debt would we be? I am not advocating full compensation. I just want the best deal the Gov't can get. What I am losing is the value of the Oil that is being drilled and sold. Or the timber being cut or the copper being mined. Its a sweetheart deal on those products that the Gov't has too easily granted to Industry. There is no value to you for anything that is still in the ground. The only value that stuff has is when it's out of the ground. Yes, you can get someone to buy it before it's out of the ground, but the reason they would be doing that would be to get it out of the ground. quote: Oh so, you are saying the Oil Companies are complete idiots and leased land with no idea when it might be commercially viable to drill? Are you serious? In many instances the Gov't tracts of land are adjacent to what the Oil Companies already own(ANWR). One is viable but its sister next door isn't? LOL...... Actually, you are the one calling the Oil Companies idiots. The oil companies know there is oil in places, and probably invest a great deal in extraction R & D. I'm sure there are some that gamble in taking on a lease for no reason other than to keep someone else from getting that lease. If a lease is good for 7 years, then they have 7 years to find a way. But, that's merely a speculation, and no legit business would do that, right? quote: Lease money is a pittance. Tell me again why we should use it now and not hold onto it since the value will only go up? How much is lease money? And, you do realize that your idea means we rely on imported oil even more, right?

DomYngBlk -> RE: Drilling (10/22/2012 12:22:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk I am telling you this simple fact. Its a sucker deal crafted by and for Oil. The people are getting fucked. The amount of lease money , plus royalties doesn't even begin to cover what that oil and land is worth. Any common business person could tell you that. The land is still owned by the Government, so the full value of the land doesn't need to be compensated for. But, even taking your idea a step further, what are you losing by the Oil Companies drilling on public lands (and paying the US Government a royalty)? Remember, too, that all that is being given is the right to drill for the oil. They aren't getting the land. quote: The program as it is now is nothing but welfare for Oil. And allowing them to sit on the leases as prices rise? Fuck that. Use it or lose it. I think they should all be revoked and rebidding begin on those lands. Lets be business like in that approach. Is it possible that the cost to recover that oil is high enough to make it not economical at the current pricing? Nooooo, that can't be it. Obviously, they are business schmucks, and don't understand reality. quote: And, I am not just picking on Oil. Any resource from grass, to titanium to uranium to copper......if it is on Federal lands......the people's property isn't given away for free. It isn't given away for free. Unless someone drills for that oil, it has no current worth. If Oil companies didn't drill for that oil, how much further into debt would we be? I am not advocating full compensation. I just want the best deal the Gov't can get. What I am losing is the value of the Oil that is being drilled and sold. Or the timber being cut or the copper being mined. Its a sweetheart deal on those products that the Gov't has too easily granted to Industry. There is no value to you for anything that is still in the ground. The only value that stuff has is when it's out of the ground. Yes, you can get someone to buy it before it's out of the ground, but the reason they would be doing that would be to get it out of the ground. quote: Oh so, you are saying the Oil Companies are complete idiots and leased land with no idea when it might be commercially viable to drill? Are you serious? In many instances the Gov't tracts of land are adjacent to what the Oil Companies already own(ANWR). One is viable but its sister next door isn't? LOL...... Actually, you are the one calling the Oil Companies idiots. The oil companies know there is oil in places, and probably invest a great deal in extraction R & D. I'm sure there are some that gamble in taking on a lease for no reason other than to keep someone else from getting that lease. If a lease is good for 7 years, then they have 7 years to find a way. But, that's merely a speculation, and no legit business would do that, right? quote: Lease money is a pittance. Tell me again why we should use it now and not hold onto it since the value will only go up? How much is lease money? And, you do realize that your idea means we rely on imported oil even more, right? Well thats not true at all. Mineral rights make land values very much different. Add to that if they bought the lease they've already probably had a permit to test drill it. Oil is there. It isn't a mystery. And no, I think the Oil companies are pretty smart. Got a fucking sweetheart deal from the Uncle Sam and have got the rules of the game in their favor. If it is such a raw deal...why are they clamoring for more? Supply Demand....Free Market system at work. Uncle Sam holds the chips....we need to use them. So our energy independence depends on the exploration of federal lands? Are you sure thats what you wanna go with?

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