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Aswad -> RE: Forward? (11/2/2012 8:53:24 AM)
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ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Why would either Poland or the United States wish to attack Russia?
What possible scenarios are you (or Putin) imagining here?
How is Poland so volatile anyway?
~sigh~
Why would the USSR wish to attack the USA?
What possible scenarios were you all imagining during the Cold War?
Have you been keeping an eye on the cultural and political developments in Poland these past few years?
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I don't like that idea either, but it wouldn't be the first time America has been played for a fool that way. Most of the wars America has gotten involved in are those we've been suckered into. They were never our idea.
Then you (the USA) must be the most gullible fools around.
No, I think it's far more flattering to say you've come up with quite a few wars on your own.
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You can't really take pre-election statements from an as of yet unelected candidate all that seriously, especially when it comes to statements about foreign policy.
I'm taking the political analyses of our local experts seriously. The missile shield conflict concerns them. The prospect of Romney as prez aggravates their concern. Believe it or not, the institutions we entrust with political analyses upon which are based our decisions about the foreign affairs that concern our territorial sovereignty and national safety are not inclined to work off election campaigns.
That said, I would never vote for a candidate that doesn't present himself in a roughly accurate manner, so you're not exactly building a lot of confidence in Romney with what you're saying. Obama has pursued a course that is surprisingly close to the platform on which he was elected, and has shown a good track record, indeed an excellent track record if you consider the opposition. In reviewing it to make sure I wasn't BSing you, I've arrived at the conclusion that Obama may even be a decent choice, rather than the lesser of two evils. As such, I'd like to thank you for indirectly educating me on how preferable Obama is.
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Technically, that shouldn't really matter. If Russia worried about the USA attacking them, then it shouldn't make any real difference. Besides, Poland doesn't even border Russia anymore (except for that little enclave around Kaliningrad). We'd have to go through Belarus, Lithuania, or Ukraine to be able to invade Russia from Poland.
Are you being coy, or deliberately obtuse?
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Point of order, we didn't actually start those wars.
Like hell you didn't.
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Iraq started it when they engaged in an aggressive invasion of Kuwait in 1990.
If you didn't start Afghanistan, Iraq didn't start the First Gulf War. Of course, me, I think Iraq did start the First Gulf War. All of which doesn't change the fact that I was talking about the Second Gulf War.
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The war which started in 2003 was merely a continuation of that earlier war started by Iraq.
"Back from recess"?
No, sorry, that doesn't fly in any way, shape or form.
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Afghanistan was attacked because they were sheltering the mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks, so they attacked us first.
Point of order: Afghanistan said "We won't extradite without evidence, so please provide it." and the USA responded "Oorah!".
Point of sanity: sheltering someone is not the same as attacking you. If OBL had come to Norway, he would not have been extradited, under any circumstances, because our laws do not permit extradition on charges that risk capital punishment or torture. As there was (eventually) evidence, he would've been imprisoned for life here, but not extradited to the USA. By your logic, that would've made us the aggressor under those circumstances, and war a legitimate response to that, which we would've started by virtue of some douche visiting our country and our country adhering to its own laws.
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And why would "the rest of the world" be all that enthusiastic about championing the cause of Saddam Hussein or Al Qaeda?
Saddam Hussein was a force of stability in the Middle East, one of the primary obstacles to al-Qaeda and extremist power in the region. Iran and every jihadist leader worldwide thanks you from the bottoms of their hearts for taking care of Saddam Hussein for them, and every woman and free thinker in the region will know fear thanks to you guys. Explain to me again what you're championing?
And I think you meant "Taliban" when you said "Al Qaeda", not that it matters. The only one championing the cause of al-Qaeda is the USA. You're right, we're not enthusiastic about that. OBL, though, probably thanks you from beyond the grave for continuing to carry his torch forward, as you have been doing since he handed you the torch on 9/11 of 2001 by expedited courier, collect on delivery. GWB was warned not to pick up that torch, but it was important to him to further the cause of jihadists worldwide, apparently, so he did.
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Why does the USA get viewed as the villain while all these other tyrants and thugs around the world get a free pass?
Nobody gets a free pass. But the USA has distinguished itself in the area of international warfare.
See, al-Assad shoots up the Syrian civilians, he doesn't shoot up civilians in another country. The USA, by contrast, shoots up civilians on different continents altogether, even when there is no threat to US interests. If you want to vote yourself into poverty and crime, that's none of my business. But when you bring your shit to other people's sandboxes without so much as the courtesy of a doggy bag, that's when you get to be the villain. It's a role you've chosen, and with considerable consistency.
Try not just posing the question, but posing it to yourself, and then going to look for the answers.
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That's something I never could understand from those who constantly bash America.
And I can't quite understand why you're surprised.
Bashing implies something unwarranted, incidentally, and I try to avoid that.
On more than a few occasions, I have lauded the USA on several important points, but in terms of international affairs- which is where the whole idea of the USA as a nation is relevant- you have a long way to go before being considered a responsible world citizen, WW2 aside. The USA is the archetypical rogue state, with a long and bloody history of terrorism and wars of aggression throughout the world. Feeling justified about it doesn't change how other states feel about being on the receiving end of it. Now, I'm on the sidelines, which is why I'm criticizing, not bashing. The jihadists, many of them, have been on the receiving end, hence raw hatred on their part. Fixing that one problem will do more for you (and everyone else) than every nuke you have around.
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Well, maybe they're just not looking at the situation objectively or fairly.
The dispassionate third party with a close eye on both sides is usually closer to objectivity than the sides themselves.
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Our main fault lies in the fact that we were suckered into a global situation which we didn't really get a grasp on until it was too late.
WW2 was one case where you held off way too long. Had you been a bit later there, ze welt would luck verry diffrent. The rest of us have made our own mistakes, by the way; feel free to learn from them. Any time now, and sooner would be better.
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In my view, it actually takes a lot of damn gall on the Russians' part to even think that the USA might attack them.
Again, I have to ask: are you pulling my leg?
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They're the ones who have consistently shown aggression and malice towards their neighbors.
Hell, yes. Why are you looking to get into that mess?
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Germans are badmouthing the USA
Since when?
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And Poland is "volatile"?
If I had been through what Poland has, I would be pretty volatile, too.
It's a situation assessment, not a value statement.
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We had stopped our expansionist ways and supported a more cooperative approach to world affairs.
That's starting from the second half of the 20th century, not 19th to early 20th, and I'm thinking "more cooperative" in this case is rather charitable.
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But where we made our mistake was in aligning our own foreign policy with that of the Great Powers of Europe at the time.
You would've preferred to have Hitler lob a nuke at you from the United German Continent, is that it?
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That's what would eventually bring us into the World Wars and thrust us into the Cold War - which is how we got to the current situation we're in.
Yes, yes, it's not you, it's everyone else, I get it. Funny how that doesn't seem to apply to e.g. Afghanistan.
Sorry to be frothing here, but I'm like "wtf, seriously?" here...
IWYW,
— Aswad.
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