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What if... - 10/31/2012 1:02:44 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		The polling, bothnational and state by state, is presenting an uncomfortable possibility.

Nationally the Presidential campaign is a dead heat and the winner is simply impossible to predict. However the state by state polling shows Obama with a substantial lead in electoral votes.

So how will right wingers take it if Romney wins the popular vote but loses the Electoral College? Will this finally convince them to get onboard with going to a national popular vote to choose the President?
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RE: What if... - 10/31/2012 1:30:48 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline 		Probably. It is amazing how fast people (regardless of ideology) can do a one-eighty when it suits their interests.

I, however, think doing away with the Electoral Collage would be a huge mistake. To do so would essentially disenfranchise anyone not living in one of the big cities. Today, candidates have to pay attention to the more rural areas because, if they cant get a few big (in terms of electoral votes) states, they can still win by picking up lots of little states. Without the electoral collage, the candidates need only pay attention to the big cities... the needs of rural people will be of no import to them. The people of some states need not be considered at all.

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

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RE: What if... - 10/31/2012 1:34:04 PM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1751
Status: offline 		Which means there could be areas of the country people wouldn't have to endure the onslaught of endless and senseless political ads....from ANY party.

(in reply to Marc2b)
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RE: What if... - 10/31/2012 1:35:31 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		If you happen to live in "fly-over"America you better hope not.

_____________________________

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Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: What if... - 10/31/2012 1:41:14 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline 		What interesting is Dick Morris. One time adviser to Bill Clinton. Clinton didn't have him on because he's an idiot. Quite the contrary. Then there's Nate Silver, the guru of '08.

They both can't be right.



_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Marc2b)
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RE: What if... - 10/31/2012 2:33:17 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

What interesting is Dick Morris. One time adviser to Bill Clinton. Clinton didn't have him on because he's an idiot. Quite the contrary. Then there's Nate Silver, the guru of '08.

They both can't be right.



Morris is pretty much never right. Silver has been right on almost everything for the past 4 years.

(in reply to Yachtie)
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RE: What if... - 10/31/2012 2:44:43 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Probably. It is amazing how fast people (regardless of ideology) can do a one-eighty when it suits their interests.

I, however, think doing away with the Electoral Collage would be a huge mistake. To do so would essentially disenfranchise anyone not living in one of the big cities. Today, candidates have to pay attention to the more rural areas because, if they cant get a few big (in terms of electoral votes) states, they can still win by picking up lots of little states. Without the electoral collage, the candidates need only pay attention to the big cities... the needs of rural people will be of no import to them. The people of some states need not be considered at all.

That is simply not true. Without the electoral college every voters vote counts the same. With the college small state voters are far more valuable.

For instance a voter in wyoming is one of 565k (roughly) and decides the fate of 3 electoral votes while a I, a voter in Illinois, am one of 12.9M and decide the fate of 20 electoral votes. So around 25 times as many people are worth less than 7 times as many votes. How is that right?

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RE: What if... - 10/31/2012 4:23:39 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Probably. It is amazing how fast people (regardless of ideology) can do a one-eighty when it suits their interests.

I, however, think doing away with the Electoral Collage would be a huge mistake. To do so would essentially disenfranchise anyone not living in one of the big cities. Today, candidates have to pay attention to the more rural areas because, if they cant get a few big (in terms of electoral votes) states, they can still win by picking up lots of little states. Without the electoral collage, the candidates need only pay attention to the big cities... the needs of rural people will be of no import to them. The people of some states need not be considered at all.

That is simply not true. Without the electoral college every voters vote counts the same. With the college small state voters are far more valuable.

For instance a voter in wyoming is one of 565k (roughly) and decides the fate of 3 electoral votes while a I, a voter in Illinois, am one of 12.9M and decide the fate of 20 electoral votes. So around 25 times as many people are worth less than 7 times as many votes. How is that right?



It's a form of protection of the minority electorate (demographic), a safeguard to what makes this country work. The electoral college is a check on the skew that would happen.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: What if... - 10/31/2012 4:32:38 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Probably. It is amazing how fast people (regardless of ideology) can do a one-eighty when it suits their interests.

I, however, think doing away with the Electoral Collage would be a huge mistake. To do so would essentially disenfranchise anyone not living in one of the big cities. Today, candidates have to pay attention to the more rural areas because, if they cant get a few big (in terms of electoral votes) states, they can still win by picking up lots of little states. Without the electoral collage, the candidates need only pay attention to the big cities... the needs of rural people will be of no import to them. The people of some states need not be considered at all.

That is simply not true. Without the electoral college every voters vote counts the same. With the college small state voters are far more valuable.

For instance a voter in wyoming is one of 565k (roughly) and decides the fate of 3 electoral votes while a I, a voter in Illinois, am one of 12.9M and decide the fate of 20 electoral votes. So around 25 times as many people are worth less than 7 times as many votes. How is that right?



It's a form of protection of the minority electorate (demographic), a safeguard to what makes this country work. The electoral college is a check on the skew that would happen.

What?

How would direct majority vote skew anything? 

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: What if... - 10/31/2012 4:47:41 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
Probably. It is amazing how fast people (regardless of ideology) can do a one-eighty when it suits their interests.
I, however, think doing away with the Electoral Collage would be a huge mistake. To do so would essentially disenfranchise anyone not living in one of the big cities. Today, candidates have to pay attention to the more rural areas because, if they cant get a few big (in terms of electoral votes) states, they can still win by picking up lots of little states. Without the electoral collage, the candidates need only pay attention to the big cities... the needs of rural people will be of no import to them. The people of some states need not be considered at all.

That is simply not true. Without the electoral college every voters vote counts the same. With the college small state voters are far more valuable.
For instance a voter in wyoming is one of 565k (roughly) and decides the fate of 3 electoral votes while a I, a voter in Illinois, am one of 12.9M and decide the fate of 20 electoral votes. So around 25 times as many people are worth less than 7 times as many votes. How is that right?


It's the Big State vs. the Little State that was fixed with each State having 2 Senators while Representatives remained proportionate to the number of people.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: What if... - 10/31/2012 4:57:18 PM   
playfulotter


Posts: 2195
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		I rarely follow the political message boards here on collarme but this commercial I saw on TV here in California makes one wonder....I have become more Conservative as I have grown older but still vote mostly Democratic....Since I have seen this on TV I am sure it has been show on here before....but anyone with a brain has to think..wow...this is so true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYKAbRK_wKA

< Message edited by playfulotter -- 10/31/2012 4:58:05 PM >

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 11
RE: What if... - 10/31/2012 5:04:29 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Probably. It is amazing how fast people (regardless of ideology) can do a one-eighty when it suits their interests.

I, however, think doing away with the Electoral Collage would be a huge mistake. To do so would essentially disenfranchise anyone not living in one of the big cities. Today, candidates have to pay attention to the more rural areas because, if they cant get a few big (in terms of electoral votes) states, they can still win by picking up lots of little states. Without the electoral collage, the candidates need only pay attention to the big cities... the needs of rural people will be of no import to them. The people of some states need not be considered at all.

That is simply not true. Without the electoral college every voters vote counts the same. With the college small state voters are far more valuable.

For instance a voter in wyoming is one of 565k (roughly) and decides the fate of 3 electoral votes while a I, a voter in Illinois, am one of 12.9M and decide the fate of 20 electoral votes. So around 25 times as many people are worth less than 7 times as many votes. How is that right?



It's a form of protection of the minority electorate (demographic), a safeguard to what makes this country work. The electoral college is a check on the skew that would happen.

What?

How would direct majority vote skew anything? 


For one thing, it could favor the needs of large metro areas over smaller rural ones. For instance, the needs or desires of California would dwarf those of Wyoming. High populace coastal states could hold sway over middle states.

Some, and I include myself, see the electoral college as a potential check on some remote possibility of the electorate going absolutely mad.







_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: What if... - 10/31/2012 5:15:59 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

What interesting is Dick Morris. One time adviser to Bill Clinton. Clinton didn't have him on because he's an idiot. Quite the contrary. Then there's Nate Silver, the guru of '08.

They both can't be right.



The great thing is that Nate Silver came out of doing baseball stats.

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to Yachtie)
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RE: What if... - 10/31/2012 5:19:00 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

For instance, the needs or desires of California would dwarf those of Wyoming.

Don't they now? Any why are Wyoming's people more worthy of clout than California's?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: What if... - 10/31/2012 5:28:30 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		FR

A few thoughts on the Electoral College:

-- Given the current demographics of the U.S. the EC amplifies the influence of red states. I can't help wondering if that plays a role in some folks' support for it.

-- The winner-take-all system of assigning electoral votes (prevalent in most states) essentially trashes the votes of anyone who didn't opt for the winner.

-- In 1876, 1888, and 2000, the Electoral College nullified the popular vote. Each time, a Republican moved into the White House. Odd coincidence, no?

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 10/31/2012 5:34:07 PM >

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: What if... - 10/31/2012 5:31:13 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Probably. It is amazing how fast people (regardless of ideology) can do a one-eighty when it suits their interests.

I, however, think doing away with the Electoral Collage would be a huge mistake. To do so would essentially disenfranchise anyone not living in one of the big cities. Today, candidates have to pay attention to the more rural areas because, if they cant get a few big (in terms of electoral votes) states, they can still win by picking up lots of little states. Without the electoral collage, the candidates need only pay attention to the big cities... the needs of rural people will be of no import to them. The people of some states need not be considered at all.

That is simply not true. Without the electoral college every voters vote counts the same. With the college small state voters are far more valuable.

For instance a voter in wyoming is one of 565k (roughly) and decides the fate of 3 electoral votes while a I, a voter in Illinois, am one of 12.9M and decide the fate of 20 electoral votes. So around 25 times as many people are worth less than 7 times as many votes. How is that right?



It's a form of protection of the minority electorate (demographic), a safeguard to what makes this country work. The electoral college is a check on the skew that would happen.

What?

How would direct majority vote skew anything? 


For one thing, it could favor the needs of large metro areas over smaller rural ones. For instance, the needs or desires of California would dwarf those of Wyoming. High populace coastal states could hold sway over middle states.

Some, and I include myself, see the electoral college as a potential check on some remote possibility of the electorate going absolutely mad.

The needs of metropolitan areas should dwarf those of rural low population density areas. Those metro areas contain many times as many people and this country is supposed to by and for the people.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: What if... - 10/31/2012 5:32:39 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

A few thoughts on the Electoral College:

-- Given the current demographics of the U.S. the EC gives amplifies the influence of red states. I can't help wondering that that plays a role in some folks' support for it.

-- The winner-take-all system of assigning electoral votes (prevalent in most states) essentially trashes the votes of anyone who didn't vote for the winner.

-- In 1876, 1888, and 2000, the Electoral College nullified the popular vote. Each time, a Republican moved into the White House.



I can't help wondering that that plays a role in some folks' dislike for it.

< Message edited by Yachtie -- 10/31/2012 5:33:10 PM >

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: What if... - 10/31/2012 5:36:26 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
FR
A few thoughts on the Electoral College:
-- Given the current demographics of the U.S. the EC amplifies the influence of red states. I can't help wondering if that plays a role in some folks' support for it.


Actually, no. I won't be happy if Obama wins the EC, but loses the popular vote. But, it won't be because he lost the popular vote and is still the President. It'll simply be because he's still the President. My support for the EC won't change a bit.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: What if... - 10/31/2012 5:41:48 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
The needs of metropolitan areas should dwarf those of rural low population density areas. Those metro areas contain many times as many people and this country is supposed to by and for the people.


This is precisely why we weren't set up to be a direct democracy. The rights of the few are just as important as the rights of the many. the passing whims and fancies of the majority do not trump the rights of the few. Thus, we have government of the people, not government of the majority.

And, this is yet another reason why government should stay out of providing for one individual at the expense of another individual. It's not about putting the black man on a higher pedestal to make up for previous slights. It's not about putting women up on a higher pedestal. It's about us all being equal in the eyes of the law. While that might not happen everywhere, the proper solution is to change those areas where it isn't happening instead of changing everywhere.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: What if... - 10/31/2012 6:21:04 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Well, a shift to election by popular vote would be one way for California, Illinois, and New York to make sure the rest of the country takes care of our needs...

It's funny, to me at least, that the OP only looks at this in terms of Republicans might react, and not how it would shove the shit that spewed endlessly from the left in the Bush years, right back down their throats.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 20
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