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Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/3/2012 3:52:30 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		A friend just bought me a copy of Alain De Botton's Religion for Atheists: A Non-believer's Guide to the Uses of Religion, which she loved and wants me to read so we can discuss it.

I'm about two chapters in, and I'm pretty underwhelmed so far. Lots of gauzy generalizations, with maybe a handful of specific facts or details. And his discussion of religious "community" makes me wonder if he's ever sat through a bake sale meeting!

Have any of our esteemed P&R posters read this? Is it worth persevering?


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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/3/2012 3:55:37 PM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		I read it. Not a fan of his writing style but I do think he has a point.

That is that atheists, and the irreligious more generally, give up/miss out on the community aspects of religion.

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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/3/2012 4:17:56 PM   
LonDom61


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Status: offline 		I have not read it. But I heard an interview and watched his TED Talk awhile back. Only recall a few points.

The lack of a built-in community is one. Yes, it is a good point. There is a group called the North Texas Church of Freethought. Basically an atheist church. It is at least one example of such. UU churches also offer community to many, including atheists.

But why just a church? I have attended conventions, partially for that purpose. Meetup groups, Humanist groups (with or without their own building).

He suggests that atheists chip in together to finance a big secular cathedral. He does give specifics there. Specific dimensions to represent, I think, the (scientifically, not religiously, determined) age of the earth, etc.

He is an architect. So I wonder who he has in mind to design such a structure?

He calls his dealio Atheism 2.0. I think he is just trying to become a name in the non-belief community.

Elsewhere, there is a schism happening. Some atheists want to add action on social causes to the basic lack of belief in deities. They call themselves A+.


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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/3/2012 4:53:38 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
That is that atheists, and the irreligious more generally, give up/miss out on the community aspects of religion.


What makes you think that irreligious people do not have a community spirit in the same way that religious people do?

That's a very blinkered view if I must say so.

Have you not heard of a Coven?
A meeting in much the same vein as a church meeting but they just happen to not believe in 'god' - at least not in the same way that Christians do. These meetings are just as intense and community-sprited as church meetings are and in a lot of cases even more so because they are frowned upon by the Christians.

In just the same way that 'Christians' (and I use that term very loosely) seem to pidgeon-hole non-believers, such as Wiccans and Pagans, as Satanists through sheer ignorance and myths?
You can't be a Satanist if you don't believe in 'god' because Satan is the anti-god - the polarised opposite of god. So.... no god = no satan either ;)


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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/3/2012 4:58:55 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
That is that atheists, and the irreligious more generally, give up/miss out on the community aspects of religion.


What makes you think that irreligious people do not have a community spirit in the same way that religious people do?

That's a very blinkered view if I must say so.

Have you not heard of a Coven?
A meeting in much the same vein as a church meeting but they just happen to not believe in 'god' - at least not in the same way that Christians do. These meetings are just as intense and community-sprited as church meetings are and in a lot of cases even more so because they are frowned upon by the Christians.

In just the same way that 'Christians' (and I use that term very loosely) seem to pidgeon-hole non-believers, such as Wiccans and Pagans, as Satanists through sheer ignorance and myths?
You can't be a Satanist if you don't believe in 'god' because Satan is the anti-god - the polarised opposite of god. So.... no god = no satan either ;)

Calm down and take a breath.

A coven is a religious gathering. I specifically said atheists and the irreligious, that excludes Wiccans. The point I was discussing is from the book and it deals with people who don't attend church in whatever guise.

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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/3/2012 5:12:45 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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Status: offline 		Sorry to disagree....

Wiccan and Pagan, although (again, pidgeon-holed by the Cristian society) 'recognised' as a religion just isn't true.
It is a way of life, much like those who follow Gor - it is not a religion as such - at least that's not how is it usually viewed by those that live it.

A Coven is the name given to a group of people - just like being a member of a church - it is not a religious gathering.
When they meet, just like other church goers, that is when it is a meeting, just like mass is for Catholics.
And in most parts around the world, Wiccans and Pagans don't have a church or other sacred building where these meetings take place.

Incidentally, Atheists are just as strong in their convictions as those that are agnostic or religious and still have that community spirit within their own group. I think it is a huge mistake to make a claim that those that are irreligious do not have (or miss out) on a community spirit. The only difference is whether that spirit is religious-based or not.

And no, I haven't read the book and not likely to.
And FWIW, I am a Pagan.


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 11/3/2012 5:25:23 PM >

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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/3/2012 5:29:42 PM   
stellauk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I read it. Not a fan of his writing style but I do think he has a point.

That is that atheists, and the irreligious more generally, give up/miss out on the community aspects of religion.


Are you sure about this?

I see the point you are trying to make and indeed religious communities are usually communities, but I can't see what there could be that is exclusive to religious communities which people outside these communities don't experience.

I say this having worked in theatre, where the sense of community is just as strong, if not stronger than any religious community. But then I walk past the pub at the end of my street and see the same or similar sense of community there.

We're also within two months to Christmas - a major Christian festival. It doesn't matter whether you are Christian or not, you're somehow going to become involved and caught up in Christmas. Christmas is perhaps one of the most inclusive religious festivals there is, because celebrating it is seen as the done thing in society.

This brings me to the point I'm hoping to make and that is religion so heavily influences our culture and society that it is just as easy for non-believers and atheists to get that sense of community as it is for Christians.

Where do you see non-Christians and non-believers missing out? I'm sorry, but I'm missing this too.

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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/3/2012 5:36:52 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I read it. Not a fan of his writing style but I do think he has a point.

That is that atheists, and the irreligious more generally, give up/miss out on the community aspects of religion.


Are you sure about this?

I see the point you are trying to make and indeed religious communities are usually communities, but I can't see what there could be that is exclusive to religious communities which people outside these communities don't experience.

I meant strictly that it is one less community to belong to. People belong to many communities, work, friends, church etc.. Church has the potential to be a much broader community than most others so that is something hard to replace. I'm not saying it can't be I'm just acknowledging Botton has a point.

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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/3/2012 5:37:10 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I read it. Not a fan of his writing style but I do think he has a point.

That is that atheists, and the irreligious more generally, give up/miss out on the community aspects of religion.


Are you sure about this?

I see the point you are trying to make and indeed religious communities are usually communities, but I can't see what there could be that is exclusive to religious communities which people outside these communities don't experience.

I say this having worked in theatre, where the sense of community is just as strong, if not stronger than any religious community. But then I walk past the pub at the end of my street and see the same or similar sense of community there.

We're also within two months to Christmas - a major Christian festival. It doesn't matter whether you are Christian or not, you're somehow going to become involved and caught up in Christmas. Christmas is perhaps one of the most inclusive religious festivals there is, because celebrating it is seen as the done thing in society.

This brings me to the point I'm hoping to make and that is religion so heavily influences our culture and society that it is just as easy for non-believers and atheists to get that sense of community as it is for Christians.

Where do you see non-Christians and non-believers missing out? I'm sorry, but I'm missing this too.


Good post - better than the feeble attempt that I made. lol.

Just out of interest, despite (or maybe because of) what people expect at xmas, we don't celebrate it at all.
No tree, no decorations, no hymns, no lights, no turkey etc.... nothing at all.
We actually put a big colourful sign in the window and on the front door saying "We are Pagans. We don't do Christmas. Carol singers will be shot, survivors will be buried alive". :)


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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/3/2012 5:46:04 PM   
wittynamehere


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
atheists, and the irreligious more generally, give up/miss out on the community aspects of religion.

Said another way, being "religious" has stuff going for it, even if the things the religious people believe aren't real.
Yeah, of course. Nothing is all good, or all bad. Nothing's all black, or all white. Everything's at least a little bit gray. Being religious often socializes you, and socialization is often a good thing. But there are better ways to socialize yourself... no need to bring pretend supernatural beings into it. No need to stone pregnant females who haven't been signed over to a particular male yet. No need to hate or kill people for being gay, or for eating fish on the wrong day, or for uncovering their faces in public. We can socialize by having hobbies, being involved in scientific research, through our careers, by being in non-religious clubs and organizations, and so on.

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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/3/2012 6:29:21 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Just out of interest, despite (or maybe because of) what people expect at xmas, we don't celebrate it at all.
No tree, no decorations, no hymns, no lights, no turkey etc.... nothing at all.
We actually put a big colourful sign in the window and on the front door saying "We are Pagans. We don't do Christmas. Carol singers will be shot, survivors will be buried alive". :)

Wasn't Christmas initially a rip off of the Pagan celebration of the Winter Solstice? When the sun reaches its lowest point on the horizon and begins its journey back to its heights. I wonder if your group is not missing a wonderful opportunity to celebrate a 'season of light.' A new birth. Just a thought.

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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/3/2012 6:35:12 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wittynamehere

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
atheists, and the irreligious more generally, give up/miss out on the community aspects of religion.

Said another way, being "religious" has stuff going for it, even if the things the religious people believe aren't real.
Yeah, of course. Nothing is all good, or all bad. Nothing's all black, or all white. Everything's at least a little bit gray. Being religious often socializes you, and socialization is often a good thing. But there are better ways to socialize yourself... no need to bring pretend supernatural beings into it. No need to stone pregnant females who haven't been signed over to a particular male yet. No need to hate or kill people for being gay, or for eating fish on the wrong day, or for uncovering their faces in public. We can socialize by having hobbies, being involved in scientific research, through our careers, by being in non-religious clubs and organizations, and so on.

I think the only advantage the religious community has going for it is that it is a more open community. In theory a church could draw members from all socioeconomic, political and cultural groups which is fairly rare in those other communities.

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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/3/2012 7:11:56 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Just out of interest, despite (or maybe because of) what people expect at xmas, we don't celebrate it at all.
No tree, no decorations, no hymns, no lights, no turkey etc.... nothing at all.
We actually put a big colourful sign in the window and on the front door saying "We are Pagans. We don't do Christmas. Carol singers will be shot, survivors will be buried alive". :)

I am not religious, not an atheist, i simply dont care if God & Heaven exists or not.. does that make me irreligious? or maybe just anti-religion? no matter, the label isnt important to me either..

but I dont see Christmas or Thanksgiving or Easter as religious events.. they have been so commercialized that to me the religion is gone, or maybe i just ignore the little bit of religious stuff that might be left.. to me they are like celebrating Presidents Day or such.. its an excuse for hitting a great sale at the stores.. .. but darn it all!... I like my Christmas cake, my Thanksgiving or Christmas dinner, my decorations.. the smell of gingerbread cookies, marzipan, sparklers, the twinkly lights, even Christmas music (as long as its not religious or I view the songs as such).. I like the green smell of a fresh cut tree.. I like having a boyfriend and going to a tree farm and picking out our special Xmas tree (boyfriends are handy for tree lugging ).. I am NOT giving any of that up just cuz I am not religious!!!

I will say I dont blame you about the carol singers tho.. I am not saying pagans should celebrate or partake in Xmas at all, just that for me, not being religious does not mean I dont enjoy the event in my way..
*************************
About other posts.. imo a religion/church is a great place for affinity fraud.. if yer a scammer, thats the place to go/join!!!...


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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/3/2012 7:44:33 PM   
stellauk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I meant strictly that it is one less community to belong to. People belong to many communities, work, friends, church etc.. Church has the potential to be a much broader community than most others so that is something hard to replace. I'm not saying it can't be I'm just acknowledging Botton has a point.


Ah now I see. But isn't community a collective noun for people who share some common culture.. or, if you think about this website, a subculture?

i just can't see how you can generalize and make a statement that religious people are part of a community that non-religious or atheists are not, because our participation and involvement in different communities is determined largely by our background and our own individual interests.

You see you could turn up for a Sunday service at a church and meet a bunch of people together who've come for the service. Of course there will be exceptions such as families attending together, neighbours from the same street or block, but by and large the vast majority of people in that congregation will not share any common culture or interests other than that particular religion or faith and involvement in the congregation of that particular church.

In fact you could get them to all walk down a street and observing them at a specific point, you will be seeing the same diversity in people walking down the street as you would if you didn't have the congregation doing so.

Besides I don't think many people go to church to be part of the community - I assume that this is secondary, and most people go to church because of their relationship with the preacher or priest or vicar in the hope that he is going to talk about something that they can relate to.

This is no different, is it not, from students at a college, people going to watch the latest release of a movie, or any other reason while people come together in communities?

What I'm saying is being part of a religious community is just as incidental as being part of the local community of people who do their shopping at the supermarket. Each and every one who is part of that community has their own individual reasons for being there.

I think this is because we are all individuals, and while we might commonly be a part of a community or culture together with others our relationship with that community or culture is always individual.


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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/3/2012 9:58:43 PM   
LonDom61


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
That is that atheists, and the irreligious more generally, give up/miss out on the community aspects of religion.


What makes you think that irreligious people do not have a community spirit in the same way that religious people do?

That's a very blinkered view if I must say so.

Have you not heard of a Coven?
A meeting in much the same vein as a church meeting but they just happen to not believe in 'god' - at least not in the same way that Christians do. These meetings are just as intense and community-sprited as church meetings are and in a lot of cases even more so because they are frowned upon by the Christians.

In just the same way that 'Christians' (and I use that term very loosely) seem to pidgeon-hole non-believers, such as Wiccans and Pagans, as Satanists through sheer ignorance and myths?
You can't be a Satanist if you don't believe in 'god' because Satan is the anti-god - the polarised opposite of god. So.... no god = no satan either ;)





I don't think he meant that non-religious folks don't have the same desire to be social (although I've seen that posited; the simile “like herding cats” is used; atheists being difficult to organize).

I think he meant that we miss out on the specific location and social structure that the church building and congregation provide to religious folks.


a) humans are social animals; we like to hang out with other like-minded people.
b) religious folks have (okay, most tend to have) churches, synagogues, temples, mosques to give them a place to do so.
c) non-religious folk don't have that unifying social structure and building at which to regularly hang out with said like-minded others.


This is usually true. I have often heard or read other atheists comment that conventions, contact through websites, etc. gas given them a way they hadn't had before to “gather” with others with common views. To get the same sense of community that religious folks enjoy by attending church, etc.

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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/4/2012 4:27:31 AM   
tweakabelle


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Status: offline 		As others have stated above, just about any group of people with a common interests can be said to be a community. One thing that sets religious communities apart from others is that its members all share a belief that they (and usually they alone) have access to a Universal Truth. This does create a special bond - members are going to be "Saved" and are all on a fast track to Heaven/Nirvana/Paradise or whatever dream/salvation a given religion may be peddling. Whereas non-members, the great unwashed, are all going to another less salubrious place ....

Irrespective of its truth value, this common belief can be a powerful uniting force that can cut across all social barriers. I suspect that de Boton was alluding to the special intimacy and exclusivity that derives from this belief, a defining characterisitic that binds members of a religious community together in ways that other, less esoteric communities cannot emulate.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/4/2012 4:50:08 AM >

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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/4/2012 4:42:13 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
I am not religious, not an atheist, i simply dont care if God & Heaven exists or not.. does that make me irreligious? or maybe just anti-religion? no matter, the label isnt important to me either..

It sounds like you may be an apatheist.

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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/4/2012 4:49:15 AM   
ElChupa


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Status: offline 		religion for atheists? That's easy the modern democrat party in the USA. They already have their "god" in Barry Soetero/Barrack Hussein Obama. One of their "books" is the "book of global warming." Others might include the book of racism (it's everywhere), etc. You can add to the list. It's easy.

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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/4/2012 5:14:56 AM   
kalikshama


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Status: offline 		This non-believer in the Judeo-Christian God enjoys her Unitarian Universalist church and community very much.

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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/4/2012 7:06:05 AM   
Edalphi


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Status: offline 		I would say there is some truth in it: the US liberal democrats, Obamabots and such have many clear religious characteristics. The book recommends for the atheists to accept the practical aspects of the Bible. It could be useful advise for the democrats as well: there are many common sense political positions the conservatives are into. Instead they refer to Republicans as "evil".
I do see atheism as a radical anti-organized religion party. It has nothing to do with the question of the existence of god or how the World is built. Going for a compromise with the organized religion would be illogical.

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