S & P "negligent" Australian Court rules (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message


tweakabelle -> S & P "negligent" Australian Court rules (11/6/2012 5:21:24 AM)

In what is believed to be a world first, an Australian Court has found ratings agency Standard & Poors "negligent" in its rating of some complex financial instruments as triple A.

"The Federal Court’s finding that S&P was negligent has tremendous implications. It will reverberate around the globe, perhaps exposing the ratings agencies to a slather of lawsuits here and abroad.
The essential problem in the system has been exposed, and now judged by a court. That is, that the ratings agencies are private companies whose shareholders benefit if the stock price rises. They are paid by the banks to rate their products. The more ratings they apply, the more profit they make.
And so, during the debt-fuelled boom the agencies’ standards declined.
These CPDOs were even more leveraged and risky than your average CDO (collateralised debt obligation) and there were approximately 5 billion euros worth of CPDOs issued globally, the vast majority of which defaulted during the height of the financial crisis.
It will now be far more difficult for rating agencies to hide behind disclaimers to absolve themselves from liability. The Court’s finding this morning acknowledges that investors are entitled to and indeed do rely on credit ratings and can expect them to be based on reasonable grounds.
S&P cannot express its opinion, knowing that investors rely upon it, get paid for that opinion and then disclaim liability.
"
commented today's Sydney Morning Herald.
http://www.smh.com.au/business/rembrandt-ruling-puts-heat-on-sp-20121105-28t4y.html#ixzz2BWEEGQFx

Many people hold the ratings agencies in part responsible for the Global Financial Crisis. This is thought to be the first time a legal determination has upheld that suspicion. Finally the financial sharks and cowboys who triggered the crisis are being forced to account for their actions and they have been found wanting. Let's hope this decision is the first of many!




DarkSteven -> RE: S & P "negligent" Australian Court rules (11/6/2012 6:27:21 AM)

Wow. Just wow. Rightly deserved

Unfortunately, I suspect that these racketeteers will simply continue business as usual in the US and leave Australia.




DesideriScuri -> RE: S & P "negligent" Australian Court rules (11/6/2012 6:36:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
Wow. Just wow. Rightly deserved
Unfortunately, I suspect that these racketeteers will simply continue business as usual in the US and leave Australia.


How is it they can "leave Australia?" I mean, are Aussie's going to be barred from looking up S&P ratings?

Maybe this will be the first "guilty" verdict of a slew of them that will eventually end up with S&P getting it's just rewards?




Politesub53 -> RE: S & P "negligent" Australian Court rules (11/6/2012 4:52:43 PM)

I mentioned the part Moodys and S & P played in the 2008 crisis on another thread. The worst case was rating all (or most) of the BBB CDOs as AAA. They were all too willing to accept the bogus claims of Wall Street at face value. Maybe the answer is a ratings agency that is paid for by a small tax on the banking system and that is fully independent.




tweakabelle -> RE: S & P "negligent" Australian Court rules (11/6/2012 5:06:54 PM)

Yes if there is a role for ratings agencies, it is imperative that their income doesn't rely on a crony relationship with the financial institutions they are required to assess. At the moment, there is an obvious interest for positive ratings of financial products as it will generate increased income for the agencies. This has obvious corruption implications.

Just as importantly the agencies must shoulder legal responsibility for their ratings. They cannot be allowed to make the ratings, yet deny any responsibility for the consequences of their ratings.

The Australian judgement opens the door to righting these wrongs. I am a little sad that people here don't seem to be grasping the implications of the court decision here.




Politesub53 -> RE: S & P "negligent" Australian Court rules (11/6/2012 5:19:59 PM)

Tweakable, I think they will take notice when overseas investors start suing the ratings agency, as they surely will.




Edwynn -> RE: S & P "negligent" Australian Court rules (11/6/2012 5:24:14 PM)

quote:

They were all too willing to accept the bogus claims of Wall Street at face value.


If that's a far as it went, it's unlikely the Australian court would have found as they did.

I'm sure they were well familiar with the Levin Report; (from this site)

In Wall Street and the Financial Crisis: Anatomy of a Financial Collapse, April 13, 2011, pp. 45-46 [hereinafter, the Levin Report.”], the Congressional staff concluded that:
...

The evidence shows that analysts within Moody’s and S&P were aware of the increasing risks in the mortgage market in the years leading up to the financial crisis, including higher risk mortgage products, increasingly lax lending standards, poor quality loans, unsustainable housing prices, and increasing mortgage fraud. Yet for years, neither credit rating agency heeded warnings – even their own – about the need to adjust their processes to accurately reflect the increasing credit risk. Moody’s and S&P began issuing public warnings about problems in the mortgage market as early as 2003, yet continued to issue inflated ratings for RMBS and CDO securities before abruptly reversing course in July 2007.” [Emphasis added.]


There is also this;

"At Moody’s the CPDO model – as with most structured product models – came in two parts: the dll and the CDOROM. The dll was the “black box” proprietary part: the secret mathematical model developed to spit out the rating.
The “error” in Moody’s code, which a Financial Times investigation revealed on Wednesday, was in the dll.

When Moody’s discovered the error they corrected it and found that this meant that standard “ABN-like” first generation CPDOs would lose up to four notches of their ratings. (Whoah!!! that's from AAA to BB!! the highest rating of junk!! [parenthetical note of freaked-out emphasis, Ed].) CPDOs rated after the correction, however, still achieved triple A.

In part, it seems this was because Moody’s made two simultaneous changes to their rating methodologies. These reduced the impact of the coding issue, say documents seen by the FT.

The changes reflected different methodological assumptions about the market. Most notably, the first change put a “volatility cap” onto Moody’s predictions for how the CDS markets would behave. This had the effect of discounting any scenarios spat out by the model which predicting large movements in price: in effect, the model was adjusted so it couldn’t predict the credit crisis
."


In any case, I'm glad the attorneys for the NSW councils went for the negligence aspect. Heretofore, the agencies claimed that their ratings were only opinion, not guarantees or statement of fact, so then no fraud. Thankfully, a suit can still be brought for damages due to ineptitude.







LookieNoNookie -> RE: S & P "negligent" Australian Court rules (11/6/2012 5:35:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I mentioned the part Moodys and S & P played in the 2008 crisis on another thread. The worst case was rating all (or most) of the BBB CDOs as AAA. They were all too willing to accept the bogus claims of Wall Street at face value. Maybe the answer is a ratings agency that is paid for by a small tax on the banking system and that is fully independent.


I will now do all ratings for all financial assets globally.




Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875