RE: Topping from the bottom?

RE: Topping from the bottom? (Full Version)

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SimplyMichael -> RE: Topping from the bottom? (11/11/2012 11:50:51 AM)
Being snarky and bitchy is pretty safe and easy. My being open and not not playing to my audience doesnt tend to win your ilk over and that was alwaus a win win for me.

LevelTx -> RE: Topping from the bottom? (11/11/2012 1:02:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael I am curious how some of you see this conundrum. If slaves can, at least in theory, "tp from the bottom" and control a scene, then that opens up all sorts of questions. Which is the more dominant act, being a socially accepted dominant, behaving as we expect, using the imagery and props of dominance to be dominant, or remaining dominant while tied up, gagged, and being fucked in the ass by your slave? If you can be topped from the bottom, by someone in such a vulnerable and defenseless place, do you have much to feel dominant about? I had a submissive top me, and though it didn't end the relationship, it didnt help it, either, it caused confusion. But,as others have said, it depends on the individuals and the circumstances. Dan Dom can have subbie susie ram a prison sized dildo up in him, & everything could be hunky dory.

kitkat105 -> RE: Topping from the bottom? (11/11/2012 1:53:29 PM)
I top from the bottom all the time. That's why I'm a fake and not a TWUE SUB! [8D]

yourdarkdesire -> RE: Topping from the bottom? (11/11/2012 1:56:43 PM)
If I sat on top of you Level, would you feel better?

LevelTx -> RE: Topping from the bottom? (11/11/2012 2:12:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: yourdarkdesire If I sat on top of you Level, would you feel better? We should experiment ydd, in the name of science [;)]

kiwisub12 -> RE: Topping from the bottom? (11/11/2012 2:58:18 PM)
I agree with you red. If my dom wanted some anal sex, then i would want to be the one to give it to him - and how that would take away from his dominant personality, i can't see. Actions don't make dominant or submissive - mind sets do.

evesgrden -> RE: Topping from the bottom? (11/11/2012 2:59:15 PM)
Michael, topping from the bottom and controlling the scene are NOT synonymous. Topping from the bottom has NOTHING to do with scening. Topping from the bottom is about trying to get your way without owning it, but by being sneaky, devious, smart, .. anything but forthright about what you want. Topping from the bottom is about trying to control things when you don't have either the authority or permission. It's about the hierarchy. Dominance and submission is about the relationship. Topping and bottoming is about play...something that people in vanilla relationships do all the time.

seekingreality -> RE: Topping from the bottom? (11/11/2012 3:44:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael I am curious how some of you see this conundrum. If slaves can, at least in theory, "tp from the bottom" and control a scene, then that opens up all sorts of questions. Which is the more dominant act, being a socially accepted dominant, behaving as we expect, using the imagery and props of dominance to be dominant, or remaining dominant while tied up, gagged, and being fucked in the ass by your slave? If you can be topped from the bottom, by someone in such a vulnerable and defenseless place, do you have much to feel dominant about? I don't see it as a conundrum at all. You seem to think there is the "Great Bigt BDSM Rulebook" that everybody knows, and people are embarrassed if they break the "rules." In reality, there are no rules. There is no right way or wrong way. There is only the way that works for you. For example, you might have a way that works for you, which would bore me. The difference is you seem to think your way is the "right" way that everyone should aspire to and use as a standard. I say that because of your terminology. Lots of people who engage in BDSM don't care about "being a socially accepted dominant"; they don't care what you or anyone else "expect"; they don't care whether you or anyone else hurts your brain wondering if they "have much to feel dominant about." People role play. They switch. They have some kinky fun which they think of as fun rather than as the fundamental way they define themseles. They're just going their own thing. And if works for them, that's all that matters. If it doesn't work for them, they have to figure out how to improve it. But there is no conundrum; or. maybe, you simply have a conundrum because you have trouble understanding not everyone shares your worldview.

cloudboy -> RE: Topping from the bottom? (11/11/2012 5:05:50 PM)
I think he's just creating a BDSM puzzle piece. It's contrived toward the extreme to make its point.

Toysinbabeland -> RE: Topping from the bottom? (11/11/2012 5:11:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Toysinbabeland If you are dehydrated and in the desert, and you are offered a glass of water with just a smidgen of lethal poison, it still kills you. Forever. And that's a mighty long time. I'm saying that a Dom can do whatever they pleases but once they allow themselves to be topped, they've done so as a CHOICE. how much more telling is it? I want to understand the distinction you are making. I'm trying. Step back and look at your own analogy, bottoming is POISON? You are confusing "act" with "motive". As a matter if preference, its fine. I am simply talking conceptually. Let me flip your analogy on its head, if forcing your submissive to flogg you.makes you forever tainted, what does that do to the obedient submissive? You didn't get my analogy I meant that the poison represented a submission for the Dominant, not the other way around. Tone gets lost in text. Sorry.

SimplyMichael -> RE: Topping from the bottom? (11/11/2012 5:48:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy I think he's just creating a BDSM puzzle piece. It's contrived toward the extreme to make its point. And folks, we have a winner!

DesFIP -> RE: Topping from the bottom? (11/11/2012 6:54:39 PM)
I can't top from the bottom. I can tell him what I want. I can beg, yell, demand etc but I can't force him to accede. I am more likely to get what I want if I can make him laugh but that's not coercion, that's him deciding to indulge me because I've helped improve his mood. With that said, if his feet hurt how does he automatically become submissive if he tells me to massage them? Or tells me that my hands aren't strong enough so I should use a dowel for more pressure. If hands then I'm a good sub giving him a massage, but if I use a dowel suddenly I'm a dominant using bastinado on him? Not in my book. It isn't the act, it's who makes the decision.

ToyOfRhamnusia -> RE: Topping from the bottom? (11/11/2012 7:12:01 PM)
This whole discussion is based on SOMEONE assuming some very specific definitions of terms that aren't logical, natural, or self-consistent. Or even well defined... Submission is a set of behaviors. Dominance is a set of behaviors. Each set is triggered by various stimuli, and generally not the same for both. ALL humans have the capability of using BOTH set of behaviors, but not simultaneously. It all depends on the situation and its available stimuli - and it can change in less than a second. Some people find pleasure in either set. Some in both. Some are outright uncomfortable with one of them. Many have their general preference, but very few make an exclusive choice that controls them at all time. The big mistakes come in when we try to classify personalities in accordance with one set of these behaviors. It does not make me a submissive person that I enjoy submitting to my mistress. And it does not make me a dominant person that I enjoy taking charge in business. And I am not necessarily a switch because I sometimes enjoy submission, and sometimes enjoy dominance, because the areas in which I apply those behaviors do not overlap. And even in my relationship with mistress, there are areas where she wants me to take charge, simply because I am better qualified in that area. (Notice that I am defining a switch as someone who can assume either a submissive or a dominant behavior in the same situation, but subject to individual choice.) I can relate to what Toysinbabeland says - I would NOT like to see my mistress being dominated by another man - or ever be bottom in a scene. It would make me furious, and I might want to kill the one who forced her into that. But she has no problem seeing me dominate someone else. Or serve someone she transfers power to. In fact, she enjoys that a lot. And so do I. There is nothing wrong in that - it represents our personal choices, and it does not matter if they fit into other people's standards or not. Within the frames of a relationship, we can have kinds of behaviors, in all kinds of mixes. We might like some and dislike others. I guess that's why we spend some time on finding the right partner(s), I guess... Topping means having full formal control in a given situation - or "scene". Bottoming means having no formal control in a given situation. That's the logical way I see it. But who has the real control? The logical answer is that it is the one who gets everything as he/she wants. Hopefully, in a healthy relationship and in a successful scene, that will be BOTH! The issue of topping from the bottom is really a matter of WHEN that control is exercised from the bottom. When the formal control also represents the real control, that influence on the situation the bottom has belongs to the time BEFORE the scene is started, when the scene is negotiated. In principle, that is. Once the scene starts, the bottom has no more control, except for possibly using a safe-word to stop the scene. But that's not how it goes all the time when people interact that are not clear on the terms up front - and in that situation, a bottom might use direct language or indirect action to influence or control the action of the top. For an experienced bottom teaching a novice top some tricks and skills, this can be very valuable. For a top who wants the formal control to be real, it is a nuisance - and easy to stop. But for a top that is insecure and unaware of it happening, it just blurs the terms. However, when a top is doing something that is clearly based on miscommunication, and the bottom reminds him/her about that, then we are looking at something that truly is topping from the bottom - but it is also serving the top, as it could prevent the use of a safe-word that would stop the scene altogether. And what about a situation when a bottom makes a suggestion to the top, and the top actually like it and goes for it? Is that "topping from the bottom"? What if the top actually had plans for doing it, even if the bottom did not mention it? What if the top declines - but does it at a later time? Who is in control????? Yes, very messy because the term "topping from the bottom" can have so many meanings that an intelligent discussion is impossible, without knowing WHICH exact situation we are talking about.... We are back to something like asking about whose really in control, Bill Clinton or Monica Levinsky? Or maybe someone else? It is not at all simple, and it is not determined by formalities. The whole thing is a big mess because too many people, even seasoned BDSM'ers, try to oversimplify things by classifying a human being in accordance with a behavior that might be a common choice for that individual, but certainly does not have to be an exclusive choice for that individual. As Einstein said, "Make everything as simple as possible, BUT NOT SIMPLER."

NiceButMeanGirl -> RE: Topping from the bottom? (11/11/2012 7:36:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Which is the more dominant act, being a socially accepted dominant, behaving as we expect, using the imagery and props of dominance to be dominant, or remaining dominant while tied up, gagged, and being fucked in the ass by your slave? I don't see either as more or less. Topping & bottoming are scene/activity related and D/s is power exchange related. You can still totally direct what happens to you from the "bottom" position and remain Dominant. If the Dom says "Fuck me harder Baby!!" and she does, he's still in control. I am 100% Domme now, no longer a switch, but I still love the feel of being flogged. I would sometimes have someone service-Top me and I'd still remain in total control of how hard he flogged me, how long it lasted, etc. But now, I no longer bottom for sensations in public because of shit just like this. Too many people said I wasn't Dominant because of it. Now, if I'm itching for a good flogging, I will get it from him in private and save everyone else a lot of confusion. NBMG

dublinemma -> RE: Topping from the bottom? (11/11/2012 8:57:22 PM)
I've never really gotten this whole concept of topping from the bottom. At the end of the day you either are the dominant or you're not, if the sub is calling the shots well then you are both switches? Or am I confused? Now I hear a lot of people accusing subs of topping from the bottom because they have said they want something, or whatever the case may be, if their dominant decides to give them this does that mean the sub has just topped them? In my opinion, absolutely not, if that was the case and this was 'wrong' then wouldn't all subs just be mindless drones who never have any needs etc met unless their dom was psychic. On the flip side if the dominant enjoys something that is a 'submissive' desire are we led to believe that he is going to be a lesser dom because he requests his sub to do this... I'd view the one with the unfulfilled fantasy as such.

ToyOfRhamnusia -> RE: Topping from the bottom? (11/11/2012 10:05:05 PM)
If you want a stable relationship, then the D MUST look after the s's need, also the emotional needs - otherwise the relationship will end - or end in abuse. It is simple to illustrate with a dog. The owner is supposed to be in control of the dog, and that means that he cannot give in and feed the dog when it begs. But he has to make sure that the dogs is fed a reasonable diet it can remain healthy on! If he forgot to feed it for some time, and the dog is very hungry, then it is easy to give in and feed it when it begs - and he loses control, as the dog now got HIM to do what it wanted, as and when it wanted it! The trick is simple: DON'T feed it when the dogs THINKS of food! Feed it when it does not expect it or think of it. That means: distract it with something else, and THEN feed it. For staying in control, you must break the link between the dog's expressed desire for for food and the feeding. It must experience something totally different between those two events. The very same applies for humans, but we need to take into account that our memory (for most of us) is a bit longer than that of a dog's...

ToyOfRhamnusia -> RE: Topping from the bottom? (11/11/2012 10:08:13 PM)
And further: how is the D to know what the s needs, if it is not communicated? The main thing is that the INITIATIVE to facilitate satisfaction of that need must come from above, not from below - if the control is to remain with the D. And that initiative CANNOT be exercised as a result of the s asking in such a way that the s experiences the initiative as RESULT of his/her begging/asking, but as a DONATION from the top.

artemiss -> RE: Topping from the bottom? (11/11/2012 10:23:50 PM)
So I was writing this in pm, when I lost connection. So decided to just put it out there for everyone to see. I know we met only the one time, but something you had said stuck with me. You had never met a horsewoman that was submissive. That they had all had dominant natures. Well truth be told, I am a pushy, bossy, out spoken bitch. I've become really accomplished at manipulating scenes and getting exactly what I, (don't), want. And now I have met him, and quess what? None of it works. I can't top from the bottom. I've never called red before, but did with him expecting everything to come to a halt and be cuddled. It didn't happen, he changed pace and continued in a different direction. I should have called red and didn't because I wanted to keep on. He called an end to the scene because on my emotional state. There are truly areas where he already knows more about me than I know about myself. Knowing how fucked up that sounds is why I didn't originally want to post this publically. But it makes me believe when things are right, there is no topping from the bottom. I just hope I learn to let go, embrace what I have been looking for, and allow both of us to be happy. To stop trying to direct things to where I want us to be, and allow him to get us there.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Topping from the bottom? (11/11/2012 10:25:06 PM)
Yeah, I'm a bit confused here on exactly what the subject is. I agree with DaddySatyr that in a top/bottom 'scene,' the bottom is always ultimately in charge. When you are talking dominant/submissive relationships, the dominant is either guiding the relationship, or they're not. I don't see a lot of wiggle room here. HOW the dominant chooses to guide it -- some may see as being 'more' or 'less' dominant. If at the end of the day the dominant is the ultimate decision maker, then I view that as a dom/sub relationship and no one's real business how they got there. However, evesgrden said this: quote: Topping from the bottom is about trying to get your way without owning it, but by being sneaky, devious, smart, .. anything but forthright about what you want. Topping from the bottom is about trying to control things when you don't have either the authority or permission. It's about the hierarchy. I agree. I see topping from the bottom as manipulative sub behavior, and most especially, a purposeful campaign to erode the dom's authority. Since most subs don't want to erode the dom's authority, many get accused of this when it's not what's happening. Nature does, after all, abhor a vacuum, and a power vacuum most of all. If the dom can't maintain his or her own authority, then the sub will take over, AND be extremely unhappy about it. But that's not topping from the bottom in my opinion, it's not being properly led.

Lucifyre -> RE: Topping from the bottom? (11/12/2012 6:50:33 AM)
Mr is not a mindreader. My head is chock full of emotional landmines. I am not always able to articulate what those landmines are going to be at a given moment during a scene. Mr has to rely on whatever ability I am capable of to communicate what's going on in my head and He has to do His best to interperet what I am trying to communicate in order to be a responsible partner to me and not fuck me up worse than I already am. If that means I have to do my best to speak plain English and tell Him to stop doing something, or do something more, or change what He's using...whatever, then that's exactly what needs to happen. It's not topping from the bottom, at least in our relationship...it's Him doing His best to listen to what my needs are so that I am able to remain in a good headspace to meet His needs. I thiink the phrase "topping from the bottom" is an extremely overused phrase. I believe it is yet another one of many misplaced judgements by someone onto other people's relationships when they feel the need to define for everyone else what thier idea/opinion of twueness is. Someone on the outside of my relationship desn't get to decide what's going on within my relationship. That's for Mr and I to work out. As always, I speak from my perspective only. Lucifyre (who is having issues this morning forming and portraying complete thoughts)

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