RE: Liberalism

RE: Liberalism (Full Version)

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Level -> RE: Liberalism (11/16/2012 10:53:04 AM)
FR Liberals can be authoritarian and anti free speech. So can conservatives. Posted just so anyone claiming otherwise might wake up and smell the java.

subspaceseven -> RE: Liberalism (11/16/2012 11:00:14 AM)
I'm so tired of the BS line "well both sides do it...Show me, where have Dems had the same level of personal attacks on Bush????? Show me where they said Bush had no birth right to be President??? Show me where the Dems not supporters asked for Bush to lose so the country could move forward??? Show me where the DEM's said they would not follow federal law when the GOP had the WH during WAR???? The point of the thread was socialism, and I showed where a GOP VP candidate supported this type of socialism...where is the outrage from the GOP???

tazzygirl -> RE: Liberalism (11/16/2012 11:05:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad spreading the payment over those that engage in the risks, I doubt the amount of tax collected (in any country) comes close to paying the actual health & related costs for their smokers once they do get directly or indirectly sick from smoking.. Since 1998, governments at all levels have collected more than $444 BILLION in cigarette taxes and payments from smokers. Settlement payments, federal, and state and local taxes on cigarettes for fiscal year 2011 amounted to more than $44.5 BILLION. - Federal excise taxes - $15,101,077,000 - State and local excise taxes - $17,781,272,000 - State cigarette sales taxes - $4,240,744,000 - Tobacco settlement payments - $7,088,376,000 The government per-pack profit from cigarettes in 2011 was $3.68 (or 66 percent of the cost of a pack of cigarettes); more than ten times the profit of R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Company http://www.rjrt.com/taxpays.aspx

Aswad -> RE: Liberalism (11/16/2012 11:16:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 I doubt the amount of tax collected (in any country) comes close to paying the actual health & related costs for their smokers once they do get directly or indirectly sick from smoking.. At $16 for a 20-pack of cigarettes in Norway (no, I don't smoke, but I checked), I'm not sure. IWYW, — Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: Liberalism (11/16/2012 11:18:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: theshytype Anyway, I'm assuming there are a few people on here that would be very interested in a slave dressed in silk. Hell, yes. Do you have any to spare? [:D] IWYW, — Aswad.

Level -> RE: Liberalism (11/16/2012 11:22:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subspaceseven I'm so tired of the BS line "well both sides do it...Show me, where have Dems had the same level of personal attacks on Bush????? Show me where they said Bush had no birth right to be President??? Show me where the Dems not supporters asked for Bush to lose so the country could move forward??? Show me where the DEM's said they would not follow federal law when the GOP had the WH during WAR???? The point of the thread was socialism, and I showed where a GOP VP candidate supported this type of socialism...where is the outrage from the GOP??? The level of venom aimed at Bush was substantial, certainly around here... not so much from the Dem politicians, in part to the freshness of the 9/11 wounds. Anywho, I wasn't talking that, so...

kdsub -> RE: Liberalism (11/16/2012 11:49:01 AM)
Lets break this particular issue down to its very basic level and see if you still want to apply labels to it. In essence one side of this issue sees smoking as a health hazard that kills and or raises the cost of health insurance to all…They try to find a way to protect children from the ill affects of smoking…How... Well by requiring a license. So bottom line they want to save the lives of their children and yours. Lets call them liberal. In essence the other side believes everyone has a right to make an individual decision on their health without interference from government regulations. If they want to smoke and kill themselves and their children they have the god given, and constitutional right to do it. Lets call them stupid…. I mean conservative. Who do I agree with... why the conservatives of course… Our population needs to be thinned of idiots and liberals may mess it all up. Butch

Marc2b -> RE: Liberalism (11/16/2012 11:49:09 AM)
quote: Given that George Orwell was a liberal himself, that's rather hard to credit. Care to show your working out for that one? Orwell was a socialist... but he was dismayed by the fact that leftists could be just as authoritarian as rightists, hence Animal Farm and 1984.

Marc2b -> RE: Liberalism (11/16/2012 11:53:46 AM)
quote: Except for a few people who cross state lines and spend $20 for gas to save $10 on a carton of smokes thus demonstrating their overwhelming intelligence, where is this big underground tobacco market? Hell I don't have to cross state lines. I just have to drive 11 miles to the Tuscarora Reservation and pay only $20 for a carton of cigarettes that off the Reservation would cost me $80 to $100. I also save $0.20 a gallon on gas.

Yachtie -> RE: Liberalism (11/16/2012 12:08:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: Given that George Orwell was a liberal himself, that's rather hard to credit. Care to show your working out for that one? Orwell was a socialist... but he was dismayed by the fact that leftists could be just as authoritarian as rightists, hence Animal Farm and 1984. He did have his fears - … it is quite easy to imagine a world society, economically collectivist — that is, with the profit principle eliminated — but with all political, military and educational power in the hands of a small caste of rulers and their bravos. That or something like it is the objective of fascism. And that, of course, is the slave state, or rather the slave world… It is against this beastly possibility that we have got to combine

tj444 -> RE: Liberalism (11/16/2012 12:56:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl http://www.rjrt.com/taxpays.aspx That is only part of the equation.. where are the US related health cost figures? given how expensive health care is in the US (now that the US has national health care), the $$$ money collected can be eaten up pretty darn quick.. There are various diseases and health costs that can happen even years after a person stops smoking.. My mother (who smoked most of her life) had stomach cancer.. smokers can get stomach cancer even 10 years after they quit.. The problem with figuring out the costs of smoking is that a person might not get sick from it until decades later.. like when they are seniors and on medicare & get extra govt coverage for meds, etc.. thats when the govt is really on the hook.. Of course all that tax has gone into general revenue (to be spent on wars & bailouts) and not into funding future health costs.. There are other costs, like the loss of productivity and personal health care expenses (for those without a health plan) & perhaps bankruptcy, the cost of kids taking care of their parents.. etc.. Its gonna be interesting to see how things shake out with the US govt deficit in the next decade or two.. when boomers are all retired and straining SS & medicare.. of course, junk food & a poor diet is just as dangerous to health as cigs are..

Louve00 -> RE: Liberalism (11/16/2012 1:12:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 I would never discuss liberalism with a fox-news-alt-reality-con.........waste of time and one would have to spend a hour just to deprogram the BS 1st. This! Except you can't deprogram them. They're hellbent on ignorance and keeping themselves in the dark ages. If by chance a liberal could lead them to water, they'd call it kool-aid and die of dehydration. At least, they're faithful to their beliefs, whether you have facts to prove otherwise or not. [>:]

tazzygirl -> RE: Liberalism (11/16/2012 1:14:54 PM)
There was for many years a scandal in the tobacco industry here about how they made it more addictive intentionally. The cost break down was 193 billion a year... half for actual medical costs.. and half for down time and related costs... $96.8 billion in productivity losses ....Accounting for direct health-care expenditures and productivity losses (approximately $97 billion), the total economic burden of smoking is approximately $193 billion per year. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5745a3.htm Do we take in enough? According to the CDC, no. This is a perfect example of an industry that was allowed to do as it wished to pad its bottom line.

PeonForHer -> RE: Liberalism (11/16/2012 1:20:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad spreading the payment over those that engage in the risks, I doubt the amount of tax collected (in any country) comes close to paying the actual health & related costs for their smokers once they do get directly or indirectly sick from smoking.. That'd be quite wrong for the UK. The higher end of the estimated costs of tobacco smoking are about £5 billion. The government gets about £10 billion in tax. The first figure would come closer to the second if smokers were to live longer; the government saves quite a chunk there, of course, on not just health costs but pensions and other old people's benefits.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Liberalism (11/16/2012 1:21:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl There was for many years a scandal in the tobacco industry here about how they made it more addictive intentionally. The cost break down was 193 billion a year... half for actual medical costs.. and half for down time and related costs... $96.8 billion in productivity losses ....Accounting for direct health-care expenditures and productivity losses (approximately $97 billion), the total economic burden of smoking is approximately $193 billion per year. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5745a3.htm Do we take in enough? According to the CDC, no. This is a perfect example of an industry that was allowed to do as it wished to pad its bottom line. Reminds me of a coworker years ago whining because he wasn't paid as much as some people in the company. I looked and told him. "You don't fucking WORK as much as they do. Half the damn day, you're out in the parking lot sucking on a cigarette". I wasn't appreciated.[X(]

Moonhead -> RE: Liberalism (11/16/2012 1:23:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: Given that George Orwell was a liberal himself, that's rather hard to credit. Care to show your working out for that one? Orwell was a socialist... but he was dismayed by the fact that leftists could be just as authoritarian as rightists, hence Animal Farm and 1984. I don't think Big Brother's ideology was ever specified, though he was more likely right leaning given when the book was written. Animal Farm was a specific attack on Stalin (and a pretty devastating one at that), but Orwell's beef was more that Stalin wasn't much of a leftist or commie, surely?

Aswad -> RE: Liberalism (11/16/2012 1:23:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer That'd be quite wrong for the UK. The higher end of the estimated costs of tobacco smoking are about £5 billion. The government gets about £10 billion in tax. The first figure would come closer to the second if smokers were to live longer; the government saves quite a chunk there, of course, on not just health costs but pensions and other old people's benefits. Similar figures hold true here in Norway; the calculated expense is lower than the sin tax, last I checked. In fact, it appears to even compensate for the GDP loss from smoke breaks. IWYW, — Aswad.

PeonForHer -> RE: Liberalism (11/16/2012 1:27:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: Given that George Orwell was a liberal himself, that's rather hard to credit. Care to show your working out for that one? Orwell was a socialist... but he was dismayed by the fact that leftists could be just as authoritarian as rightists, hence Animal Farm and 1984. I don't think Big Brother's ideology was ever specified, though he was more likely right leaning given when the book was written. Animal Farm was a specific attack on Stalin (and a pretty devastating one at that), but Orwell's beef was more that Stalin wasn't much of a leftist or commie, surely? Some have called Orwell a kind of 'conservative anarchist'. He retained strong left-wing views till the end but disliked a lot of his nominally lefty contemporaries. He was odd. Mostly he was about disillusionment with the Stalin project. Just as well he didn't turn that bitterness into another Ayn Rand ideology, thank God.

LadyPact -> RE: Liberalism (11/16/2012 1:29:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Some have called Orwell a kind of 'conservative anarchist'. He retained strong left-wing views till the end but disliked a lot of his nominally lefty contemporaries. He was odd. Mostly he was about disillusionment with the Stalin project. Just as well he didn't turn that bitterness into another Ayn Rand ideology, thank God. The fact that you would even discuss this makes you so hot right now. I know, I know...... Off Topic.

Moonhead -> RE: Liberalism (11/16/2012 1:34:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer That'd be quite wrong for the UK. The higher end of the estimated costs of tobacco smoking are about £5 billion. The government gets about £10 billion in tax. How does that work? You can't raise twice as much tax revenue from something as people are spending on it...

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