RE: Am I switch or Dom? (Full Version)

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blimey69 -> RE: Am I switch or Dom? (11/22/2012 8:32:32 AM)

As an ex squaddie I was not speaking about discipline I needed in the vernacular of punishment, but of self discipline.

Improving yourself and the way you conduct yourself. The way you approach and resolve problems presented to you in a manner that is acceptable to your peers.

Mis teachings that need ignoring, re establishing the correct in the shortest period of time.

The only abuse I suffered was being told to be pacifistic. I was bought up very religiously. Only lasted until I was 14 though. Then I was allowed to do what I wanted in that sense.

I completely see where everyone that thinks I am a fruitcake is coming from. I came here for education, and that is exactly what I am getting.



Darkfeather -> RE: Am I switch or Dom? (11/22/2012 8:37:30 AM)

The problem you are running into, and the source of your confusion is, you are trying to mold yourself into something you "think" you should be. Instead, you should be trying to find out who you are. Dominant, submissive, switch, etc., each has to be themselves. Can you learn to be one or the other, probably not. Because it is who you are. For example, I could never be submissive, because it is not my nature. No amount of instruction on how to be one would change that. You need to stop looking for outside help in knowing yourself, only you can do that. Otherwise, you just become a caricature, something pieced together from other's ideas of what you should be



blimey69 -> RE: Am I switch or Dom? (11/22/2012 11:57:07 AM)

what I am most confused about from that is I wasnt trying to mold myself into anything.Since the first post, I have taken on board what has been said. I have re evaluated on what I have been told is unacceptable here from advice within this thread.

So what I wanted outside from a non lifestyle point of view and was also told time and time again was unacceptable, so many times in fact I was coerced into thinking it was. Is also a factor

Then I go into a relationship that was not based on any form of BDSM lifestyle and 2 years down the line. I was being told this over and again, being told I was unreasonable, and believing it, and leaving because I had been convinced it was.
Only to find that in fact it was acceptable, just not with me because , although as a sub I had treated her incorrectly, it was never that sort of relationship, I was never told it was, I was always advised that I was the one that had to submit to what was asked of me.

I hated it.

She only accepted she was a sub after I left. I dont blame her, but as I said I wanted her to be happy. She was not happy with me. I wanted her to be, what she found out she was after I left. I had no idea, I knew nothing about the lifestyle, and as far as I am aware, neither did she.

Even if I had known. I would have still needed training. I would have still wanted it. Not just to please her, and treat her in the manner she deserved, but because that was what I wanted too. On further reading it is what I have wanted for longer than I was with her. It was only her admission that she was a sub after I left that I wanted to understand. I had no training then.

I have had very good advice since.

I have realised it was me to blame, but only because I had no idea what or why I wanted to do it.

But i still wanted to do it, and have for years. I just have never had the correct knowledge to know whether or not I can do it well. I came from a non BDSM background, and I wanted to know more to see if this want was 1, justified,  2, acheivable, or 3, not really my bag.

As most other people who only know BDSM from porn, and dont understand the kudos of it all, I was the same. I was corrected, and rightly so. The fact it was not all about causing pain to one or another. The fact that the sub actually was 50% of the whole, was more appealing.

I dont want to mold myself on bits of others. I am finding out who I am again. After all if i was to be mentored, could that not be classed as external help?
I certainly cannot do it myself. Im not trying to be arsey, I dont think it is mumbo jumbo, and I dont believe the lifestyle or its members are what anyone outside of community percieve.

I am learning. please be patient with me. It is my intentiion to discover who I am and not who I think I may be. If it comes accross as different, that is really not my intention. 

I do understand why the first post I made, has made me look like a prick. someone who is just for titilation or kink. What I dont understand is that I have seen something in this that has had such a positive effect on me in the days since I posted, that I would like to learn more.

The feeling I have is not that of , I want to be a master or even a switch, and I want it now. I have been put right on that. The first question for me is , 'is it for me'?

Thanks for the comments though. All good. making me think harder

      



JeffBC -> RE: Am I switch or Dom? (11/22/2012 12:12:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blimey69
I completely see where everyone that thinks I am a fruitcake is coming from. I came here for education, and that is exactly what I am getting.

*chuckles* Yeah... sometimes "education" comes in the form of "bitter pill" or "difficult message". Good on you for holding your poise on this conversation.

So here's a question for you. Let's assume later today the slave girl of your dreams messages you and you two start up a nice conversation. What exactly is your plan for enslaving her? So as to not be coy here was my plan with Carol:

A) Find out what she wanted out of our marriage.
B) Craft a vision which melded her desires and mine into a single cohesive whole.
C) Get her buy-in on that (kind of pro-forma in our case but would be more important in a new relationship -- sort of)
D) Start leading according to the vision I had established.
E) Get regular feedback on my performance and any updates on changing goals.

In other words, I'm not a "master" in the BDSM sense. I'm a leader. I didn't just look at her and arch an eyebrow while wearing black leather slacks. I created a team with myself in the leadership slot. In the act of doing so I crafted a follower role in that team which was all nice and snugly and comfortable to her (in the big picture). There are definite requirements placed upon me and there are definite qualifications to her continued obedience. Without coming out and being specific about them she places a great many requirements on me... ones I am happy to have since I'm not a believer in free lunches. Your plan need not be mine. But you really ought to have some plan.



Darkfeather -> RE: Am I switch or Dom? (11/22/2012 12:21:50 PM)

This is your problem, you keep trying to define yourself from other perspectives...
"I was always advised that I was the one that had to submit to what was asked of me."
"and believing it, and leaving because I had been convinced it was."
"I would have still needed training. I would have still wanted it. Not just to please her, and treat her in the manner she deserved, but because that was what I wanted too."

Statements like those show that you wanted to be what she wanted, not who you are. No training or advice can tell you how to be a dominant. They can tell you how to act dominant, perform safely, right from wrong. But only you can find your beginning. We all have done it, discovered what kind of person we are, where we want to go. But if you try to become who you "think" you should be, instead of finding out the actuality of it, not much will change



blimey69 -> RE: Am I switch or Dom? (11/22/2012 5:10:35 PM)

I have taken some time out to think about the question asked. The second part of the first 'What exactly is your plan for enslaving her?' was what got me thinking, that actually....... Is that not that most mens goal? When they meet or decide they want more from a woman that has shown an interest, and one whom they find attractive. Ok, they might think of it in a different way, but essentially that is the game.

Then I read your plan for Carol.
Now A, and B.
If I am honest, I always want these to be discussed, and agreed upon. Particularly B. If you cannot agree upon a 'whole' there will always be a chance that missing part of that whole is what will eventually, and sooner rather than later, destroy what you have set out to acheive, and agreement will be redundant.
It seems to me it could be more so in the sense you want me to think about this list. from an ignorance perspective shall we say. Someone who is clueless about the lifestyle, but has found that from the list, there is not much difference to what is expected from his point of view, from a non lifestyle agreement.
C is sort of.. my idea of confirming that A, and B, have been understood, and accepted. If I have interpretated it correctly.
D, Well that is what I do. I have set the scene as it were, also, in the vein the question has been asked. After agreement accept this as gospel for want of a better word, to describe how I go about the business of being what is expected from me. And what I can expect in return.
For arguments sake, lets say everything is as I imagined when I set out to enslave. Or as I thought of it before you asked me the question;
To have a balanced relationship where we both accepted our needs, and were more than happy to go about the business of fulfilling those needs for each other, as long as we both met the standards we had set each other. 
I have always held that value. Before I even knew what lifestyle meant.

E, The biggie. This is where I have failed in the past. Although I have attempted to get it discussed.
As I did understand the absolute need to discuss and compromise. sadly at first got the actual meaning and application of it  confused, and incorrect.
I was always of the opinion -
"well we agreed to to A, and B, and you agreed to C, and were still keen to  go ahead, even after my warnings."  .......Yet now realise this would have had an undesirable, and damaging effect. I sort of saw it, but didnt quite get it.

I now realise that this isnt in any way  suitable, but although baffling to me at the moment, as from my point of view as it was (you jane me Tarzan shit) How do i go about making sure I dont go on about lack of sex if it occurs? As that always ends up alienating me from the ones I really love.
The regular feedback would be refreshing from my point of view, and has not really been given in the past. As long as it is discussed freely and not in riddle. I will, if directly asked, and advised clearly what the issue is. Always try to respond in the manner required correctly, and to my partners satisfaction.
Unless it is not as clear to me, then I will ask for clarification. I do not want to lose what I have!
I have made allowances in the past. Big ones, and not lost out on the sex I feel I need, in the way I need it. Thats when it is best for me.
Now I have no idea why after time, in the relationships I have been in, where this fails. I have sort of been told, but mainly left to guess, and that generally comes down to ' I cannot give you the sex you want' with little or no other reason. And no compromise (this was not the case with my ex) but I did still go on a mission about it, as much as I tried not to. I am still not entirely sure why, other than I started to feel it was the only way I could get as close as I needed to be to her. Not an excuse really, and no longer thought of as one.
Other women I have been with, that were aware if I always get , I would be so compliant with their requests, that it must look very subserviant.

However I did not feel this, while I do whatever is asked. I feel that I want to reward, and this is ok with me. 
Problems seems to start when I am rewarding the most. and not having the things done for me that warranted that reward, but still expected to keep it up to the same level for the other person.

Just to check I have it right on  E, Get regular feedback on my performance and any updates on changing goals. When I have tried to do this. I am normally told I should know. With changes being stated and set, yet not discussed with me. I understand the feedback on me. I will normally start this off. but updates on changing goals, what changes are permitted in this respect with the role I would be in? How does this work in return when you speak of the qualifications of continued obedience?  Dont think I quite got that one sussed. Can you explain in more detail as if it was me and the slave girl of my dreams, and we had come to an agreement perfectly on all counts mentioned from A to E?
Maybe detail on not so relevant agreement if this could be important or beneficial?

I have wanted it accepted in the past that I dont tend to change, although I feel differently about this now, if I wasnt to change again for a long time, could change be requested of me?  If it was agreed  at the start it would not matter if I didnt. Or is that not a valid and fair request to make?
Not that I will. Just for past perspective, and a lifestyle coupling point of view.

I really have felt uplifted answering this question, and exploring it.  Thank you very much





JeffBC -> RE: Am I switch or Dom? (11/22/2012 8:55:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blimey69
E, The biggie. This is where I have failed in the past. Although I have attempted to get it discussed.
As I did understand the absolute need to discuss and compromise. sadly at first got the actual meaning and application of it  confused, and incorrect.
I was always of the opinion -
"well we agreed to to A, and B, and you agreed to C, and were still keen to  go ahead, even after my warnings."  .......Yet now realise this would have had an undesirable, and damaging effect. I sort of saw it, but didnt quite get it.

This is one of the places I vastly diverge from BDSM-think. I really don't give a rat's ass what we agreed to yesterday. If it ain't working today then it ain't working. What's more relevant to me is:

1) Is something broken?
2) What do I need to do to fix it?

Note that the stuff I am looking for most is what's broken on MY side. Getting Carol's side fixed is easy. I just issue the appropriate commands then she does all the heavy lifting. Sadly, for the crap broken on my side I need to do the work to get it fixed. I personally prefer to get my side fixed first and with grace and dignity since that puts me in a really strong position when it comes time to discuss her side. It's also worth noting that sometimes the feedback comes in less than perfect form. I don't care. If she's got a legitimate beef then I need to deal with it because... you know... I'm in charge. And me getting my feelings all hurt because she didn't say it right is simply juvenile.

quote:

I now realise that this isnt in any way  suitable, but although baffling to me at the moment, as from my point of view as it was (you jane me Tarzan shit) How do i go about making sure I dont go on about lack of sex if it occurs? As that always ends up alienating me from the ones I really love.

Perhaps you're not getting this? If you are able to master her then there won't be a lack of sex. Maybe let me put this differently to you. If you are able to provide such a wonderful, awesome, nurturing and fulfilling life that she is overcome with gratitude then there won't be a lack of sex. Again, fair warning... that statement is definitely not very "masterly" in a BDSM sense... it's simply very effective. One way to think of how this works between Carol and I is that my leadership creates a wonderfully warm cozy relationship for her and safety in the world at large. She very strongly doesn't want to do anything which messes with all that happiness so she submits. A bit of sex when she's not in the mood is a paltry price to pay in her own eyes so she does.

quote:

Just to check I have it right on  E, Get regular feedback on my performance and any updates on changing goals. When I have tried to do this. I am normally told I should know.

OK, so this is where you and I diverge. I would not accept that answer from ANYONE in my life.. not a coworker, not a friend, not my boss, not anyone. I sure as hell wouldn't need a collar around someone's neck to get a different answer than that. I can't even begin to imagine Carol... my property answering like that. It would be considered willful disobedience and be the end of the collar and her status as my property.

By the way, when a woman tells you "you should know" what she usually means by that is that she's told you about 10 zillion times and you haven't listened. So that'd be a fine response... "OK, clearly you've told me this before and apparently I was not listening. But I'm listening now so how about we go over this one last time?" I've been known to grab a pad and pencil and take notes.

quote:

I will normally start this off. but updates on changing goals, what changes are permitted in this respect with the role I would be in? How does this work in return when you speak of the qualifications of continued obedience?  Dont think I quite got that one sussed. Can you explain in more detail as if it was me and the slave girl of my dreams, and we had come to an agreement perfectly on all counts mentioned from A to E? Maybe detail on not so relevant agreement if this could be important or beneficial?

Carol's qualification on her continued obedience (qualifications she never expressed) is that she must respect me (for real, not social courtesy and not shows of respect). She must see me as honorable. She must see me as "good". She must see me as a leader out in the world walking the talk. In addition she must feel safe and loved and nurtured and fulfilled. It's one hell of a price tag. Then again, I got a whole human out of it so you know... maybe not such a bad deal. What your perfect slave girl demands is up to her. All I can tell you for sure is any slave who told me that they had no such expectations of their master because it wasn't their place as a slave would be out of the running instantly. I expect more self awareness than that. I also like to dabble in reality from time to time and I'm pretty sure that everyone has expectations of their partner.

I ought to mention that one of the critical ways that I suspect Carol measures my overall worthiness is by how I handle negative feedback from her. I can guarantee you that when she trots out "master, we need to talk..." I'm putting my A game on.

Again, I need to point out that all this business of actually having to lead and talk and perform and whatnot isn't exactly the BDSM myth and it surely doesn't make for hot fantasy. It's just what I did with Carol to get her to obey and, in fact, what I do with everyone... coworkers, whatever.

quote:

I have wanted it accepted in the past that I dont tend to change, although I feel differently about this now, if I wasnt to change again for a long time, could change be requested of me?  If it was agreed  at the start it would not matter if I didnt. Or is that not a valid and fair request to make?

I let other people deal in "fair" and "valid". I deal in that which is (see my current signature). I don't care what anyone promised yesterday if it's fucking up my marriage today. What possible use could it be to point my finger at her and say, "But you promised!" That doesn't stop the problem. In the end I lead for the good of the marriage. If one or both of us needs to change for that goal then so be it. That applies to me quite a bit more ruthlessly than it does to her. Promises aren't worth anything to me in this context.

quote:

I really have felt uplifted answering this question, and exploring it.  Thank you very much

Glad it's helping. In the end this is simply my strategy and I could sum it up by saying, "Be a man of character and then assert your desires". It isn't really more complicated than that (LOL, as if that was easy). And truthfully, if you are actually a man of character then you don't really need to assert that much. I seldom actually command Carol. I just say what I'd prefer. Honestly, when you're a skilled leader who tends to his flock well your problem is not "how do I get someone to submit". It becomes more like, "How do I get them to stop submitting... or stop trying to get me to take control?" People LIKE to follow good leaders.



DesFIP -> RE: Am I switch or Dom? (11/22/2012 9:15:53 PM)

You aren't capable of inspiring her to submit because you're too screwed up. You told her at the beginning that you would cause the relationship to end and you did just that.

You blame everything wrong in your life on your mother.

Take responsibility for your own life. Figure out what you want and what steps are needed to get there. Get some help with your issues.

Earn someone's submission. Don't try to force it and then behave like a sulky adolescent after you screw things up again. You are the only common denominator in your relationships. Not your mom.



blimey69 -> RE: Am I switch or Dom? (11/23/2012 12:14:15 AM)

This would be so much easier to talk, if face to face. Sometimes when I am writing, i get too involved with what I am writing.
The true meaning of what I try to say, makes sense to me. But only when I haven t seen the answer that is given. When I see that answer, I tend to think I would have put that in a slightly, or completely different way.

For example E, and your answer that you think this is where we diverge. From my experience in relationships outside, where a women I have been in a relationship with, doesnt accept that what I do in terms of the 'leadership' you speak of is worthy of her obedience, then, for want of a better word, rebels, or digs her heels in. Qouting friends opinions that she agrees with, that I should be agreeing and complying with as she needs this.

I now know from your point of view as 'the leader' this would be unacceptable. If i have understood your reply correctly. 

But being unaware of your side on the times this has happened..........

When previously I led (from the examples you have given this was the case), and I did get exactly what I wanted without question.

When I was forced to go 'PC' because her feelings and needs as a woman should be met, and that I should expect to take nothing. Instead I should be waiting for permission instead........? Insert kev going mental as this sort of statement generally means things are going to change for the worst. Listening to and quite frankly agreeing with and obeying friends suggestions above mine  for example.

As it isnt seen as a lifestyle relationship, (which I am only now starting to understand thanks to your honest dissections) and is an acceptable view in a PC dominated world.

The fact they would not accept what Carol does accept, and understands that this is what she wants,  her qualification to fulfil. To carry on as is. 
Whereas they may be blind to this need and acceptance? 
Denying it.even though sub consciously that is what they really want. 

In your opinion, would my attempted leadership at that time fail because............. see 'insert kev going mental' paragraph above, or for another reason?

I am still looking and digesting the other comments which I will respond to shortly. Got to get son to school. early morining here in the uk.

Thanks



blimey69 -> RE: Am I switch or Dom? (11/23/2012 5:28:15 AM)

Thought about going over everything you said with you in reply, but not sure if I should bear it in mind as guidance for the path I may take.
Dont want you to think I am trying to be like you. But a large proportion of what you say explains my frustration at things I did not understand until they were explained to me.

It is so true about the 'been told about a zillion times' statement. As my relationships were never entered into in the sense that future relationships could be. Ionly realised what was wrong when it was too late. If I didnt realise I had to be more attentive, and the fact is I wasnt. Even though I thought I was in my mind. It goes a long way to explain what I have not seen until now. I am not stupid, but sometimes I can be blind. That side will defintely be addressed. Whatever the outcome. The general gist of what I was trying to say (that I think you have now explained), is that sometimes in a non lifestyle union. When the woman is moody or distant, you know you have done something to upset, but you just dont know what. Asking inflames the situation, trying to talk about it, and resolve it makes it even worse. I think now due to the fact it is conceived as 'you should know', you probably should, or do. This has frustrated me in the past. I wonder if this is a large percentage of my problems? I have carried on asking getting more frustrated when an answer is not forthcoming. I get that frustrated I have to be alone. Causing a double negative if you like. Now that isnt going to help anything. especially understanding of the issue at hand. I never used to handle negative feedback well. I didnt understand the need to listen. which is daft really as it makes perfect sense. the we need to talk put me on defensive, when I should of been on receptive.

One quick question though. It is your statement of willful disobedience or insolence ( please correct me if I am wrong), and its outcome. End of collar and status of property. If you as a master  could see that by pleasing you, she was actually destroying herself. Would you see a need to end the union also?

I knew I lost my abillity to assert my desires. I didnt realise my character had been lost as well. But it came out in a different way. what a pillock I must of been to her

I have always been attracted to self awareness. I class it as a positive. I do not want mindless obedience. I have had it once, and it repelled me. Losing what I was,  to become what I hated? How the hell did I not see that? All I saw was the imminent loss. My own feeling then, was that nothing could be done, When it actual fact it could have been?  Shit.

I dont believe in fate as a mystical thing. I do believe if you are lucky, that sometimes things happen for a reason, and it has a positive effect. There is always a lesson to learn. But only if you let it grab you by the balls and lead you. Accepting its ridicule, but not buckling under that, just learning from it. Applying that learning in the future.

I hope you dont need a pen and paper. I think I may.

Speak later
K

 



  

 



chatterbox24 -> RE: Am I switch or Dom? (11/23/2012 5:51:31 AM)

I think you are putting way to much emphasis on this past girlfriend too.

Its as if you are basing everything you did was wrong, because it wasnt right for her. I highly doubt everything you have did was wrong. Actually it sounds like she gives mixed signals, did you ever think she is a bit screwed up herself? Maybe she is a bit of a fruitcake. YOu almost make her sound as if she is in the Dom position, and you are doing eveerything to mold yourself into what she thinks.
Did you ever think that part of her going and being with this guy, is for one you told her to leave, and for two maybe it is simply she feels more CHEMISTRY. If you have that then you work harder in a relationship. These are things to consider that happened other then YOU DID EVERYTHING WRONG.

Take this woman completely out of the equation and quit trying to meet her standard. SHe will be having you doing dog tricks next to watch you spin in circles to please her. UGh.
FInd yourself Find yourself Find yourself. To many opinions from a forum of many people can be very confusing if your already confused. FInd yourself. Find yourself Find yourself.



evesgrden -> RE: Am I switch or Dom? (11/23/2012 10:21:47 AM)

Blimey, I'm about to tell you something I doubt you'll even want to consider.

Everything you've said points to how you want to please HER.
You are bending over backwards trying to find out how you can learn to make HER happy.
I'm hearing desperation in your desire to do what it takes in order be what SHE wants and needs.

There is nothing in what you've said that sounds dominant to me. It's all about her and what you need to do, FOR HER.

I don't think you're a switch. I sure don't think you're dominant.
Doing the math, that leaves you at the low end of the totem pole.

good luck








blimey69 -> RE: Am I switch or Dom? (11/23/2012 10:22:32 AM)

Yep, been thinking that. Did some soul searching this afternoon. Went over everything again.

Jeff has been a great help.

I have sought of come to that conclusion that she was the more dominant. Didnt have a bloody clue about lifestyle or roles, and basically wanted more control. I did leave her because she couldnt cope with me, she really couldnt at the end. But at the start, from what I know now, she was the sub. But I dont think either of us understood. I did have issues and so did she. There a lot of things I have not said, that would be mitigation on both sides. Again though it was never a lifestyle relationship. Just a bog standard no clue no control one. [sm=confused.gif]

Just changed my profile text again, and uploaded a pic of me. Ages ago but apart from some scars, dont really look that much different. And yes, I am finding myself. Going back to the way I was, before I thought or was persuaded that if a woman shouts, jump. I really do not know how I let this happen. Well apart from allowing it..lol I do feel a release in the realisation of this.

Thanks for your thoughts



blimey69 -> RE: Am I switch or Dom? (11/23/2012 10:33:40 AM)

yep, I thought that too. As i said in the last post did an awful lot of self searching. I like the person i used to be, I was never happy taking it up the ricker (in a symbolic sense) and actually i really liked myself once, when most women were telliing me I should be more PC.

Learning curve, and wants, and where i want to be now an awful lot clearer. Back to basics. Cant be liked by everyone, how boring would that be?

To be honest, Im not anyway so what difference does it make. I used to be assertive though. Quite bad/good, from what I remember between 86-99. God that seems a lifetime ago.

Yes, back to basics then see. Want what I used to get.

Thanks



blimey69 -> RE: Am I switch or Dom? (11/23/2012 10:53:07 AM)

Obviously I still do not know exactly what the hell i am doing yet. I have changed my thoughts on things so many times, this afternoon was a nightmare. Then I found my profile pic. It probably sounds daft, but it reminded me I wanted to be like I was then,and up to about 99, hen i was told my son was about 9 months away. Probably been unhappy since then as constantly pecked about my assertiveness, and how I should control it.

I think you can still have assertiveness and still have respect. It never did me any harm when I was playing drums after I left the army.

Now I want to be happy with what I get from one person, I know it will be a tad more difficult. So the advice Jeff has given, to get what I want is so valuble. Means a few changes, and not confusing the keeping her happy to get what I like cos she wants to give it to me in return, with being henpecked and bullied. Or just expecting too much.

Cheers everyone



blimey69 -> RE: Am I switch or Dom? (11/23/2012 11:13:40 AM)

I am going to stop posting on this thread for a couple of days, instead of just saying in reply my first reaction.

Please do not stop posting your thoughts though. I really need to know if this is for me.

I will carry on reading the thread. Just need to stop my head from spinning. Need to get myself back, and find some sort of start point. I am really attracted by this lifestyle. Certain parts of each different bit offer me answers. I need to evaluate which bit offers me the most in terms of what I want, am looking for, and where I want to be in the scheme of things.

At least my posts were getting shorter. And I still want to learn.



JeffBC -> RE: Am I switch or Dom? (11/23/2012 11:16:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blimey69
This would be so much easier to talk, if face to face. Sometimes when I am writing, i get too involved with what I am writing.

Agreed... which is an excellent reason to find yourself a local "master" who is willing to spend some quality face time with you.

quote:

I now know from your point of view as 'the leader' this would be unacceptable. If i have understood your reply correctly. 

Sort of. It is unacceptable from point point of view as a human not a leader. Note I said I wouldn't allow my boss at work to give me that answer any more than I'd allow Carol to do so.

quote:

When I was forced to go 'PC' because her feelings and needs as a woman should be met, and that I should expect to take nothing. Instead I should be waiting for permission instead........? Insert kev going mental as this sort of statement generally means things are going to change for the worst. Listening to and quite frankly agreeing with and obeying friends suggestions above mine  for example.

OK, hypothetical example (since this sort of thing just wouldn't happen between Carol and I... Assume Carol came home from somewhere and told me that she and a friend had been talking and her friend convinced her that she shouldn't need to do everything her husband told her to...

Her: My friend said I shouldn't have to obey you.
Me: You don't have to obey me.
Her: So if I don't want to obey I don't have to?
Me: If you don't want to obey I don't WANT you to obey me -- forget about "have to".
Her: OK, I don't want to obey anymore.
Me: Good. Let's sit down and discuss how our new marriage is going to work.

OK, now I have wrestled this "problem" onto a productive track. At that point we will reach some new agreement or not. That agreement, if reached, will work out or not. The success of the marriage as a whole depends on those things "working out".

quote:

In your opinion, would my attempted leadership at that time fail because............. see 'insert kev going mental' paragraph above, or for another reason?

ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY! Note how I would handle such a thing. Note the lack of "crazy talk" and instead a calm poise keeping my eye on the actual ball which is that Carol and I lead a happy & productive life together.

AGAIN I need to warn you because I feel like I'm leading you down the primrose path here. This is NOT a popular view in BDSM culture. Note evesgrden's response. I pretty much spend all my mental effort and attention on pleasing Carol. It's terribly un-domly of me -- submissive in fact in her eyes. But here's the gig. Because I DO spend that much effort on pleasing Carol I really don't need to worry about getting pleased myself. That's Carol's job and she's damned good at it. If I felt that Carol had become a taker rather than a giver I'd divorce her. But honestly my impression of BDSM subs is that there's this weird impossible standard you are supposed to meet. You are supposed to "care for your property" and at the same time be entirely selfish and "do what you want." That's not a game I have any interest in playing for what oughta be obvious reasons.

And since we're talking about handling "negative feedback" evesgrden just basically said that I was submissive. I might choose to interpret that as some sort of attack. But why? I get the viewpoint more or less. In her eyes I'm not. No biggie. It's not that I think her opinion is without merit. It's that I'm secure in who I am and I'm comfortable with my life state so I'm cool with whatever label other people choose to apply to it. I'm just Jeff... the guy who lacks sexual assertiveness, bosses his wife around, and at the same time devotes his life to fulfilling Carol's. It is what it is.

quote:

Dont want you to think I am trying to be like you. But a large proportion of what you say explains my frustration at things I did not understand until they were explained to me.

Personally I'd like to believe that the reason it explains things is because it's grounded in good solid methods of leadership of human beings rather than "BDSM dominance". As I keep reminding you, that'll be a problem for you if you are seeking a BDSM sub who WANTS "BDSM dominance".

quote:

It is so true about the 'been told about a zillion times' statement. As my relationships were never entered into in the sense that future relationships could be. Ionly realised what was wrong when it was too late. If I didnt realise I had to be more attentive, and the fact is I wasnt. Even though I thought I was in my mind. It goes a long way to explain what I have not seen until now. I am not stupid, but sometimes I can be blind.

Join the club. When we're talking real life and not online BDSM all of us have our blind spots and make our mistakes. That's why it is absolutely KEY how you handle those mistakes.

quote:

I think now due to the fact it is conceived as 'you should know', you probably should, or do.

Unless you got involved with an idiot that's more than likely true. That's why, at such times, it's best to simply throw yourself on the mercy of the court and point out that no matter what you SHOULD know, you don't know it and you need to so at this point the only two choices are "talk" or "terminate the relationship".

quote:

I get that frustrated I have to be alone. Causing a double negative if you like.

The rule between Carol and I is that the one who gets mad/frustrated/angry first gets to be the one who's upset and the other person has to pull on their adult pants and be an adult. As you say, it really doesn't help anything when both people are behaving like children at the same time. It is ESPECIALLY CRITICAL that the guy in charge avoid doing so whenever possible... especially in an already tense situation. That's why self-discipline is the cornerstone of dominance.

quote:

the we need to talk put me on defensive, when I should of been on receptive.

exactly! Here's a little tip for you. All of us are human and we all make mistakes. The person who is self-confident has no issue with that and simply acts to fix whatever mistake they made. The person who lacks self-confidence sees it as an attack and so reacts with a fight/flight response. By reacting in the way you do you are automatically saying, "I'm not secure in myself and I probably have no business leading anyone else."

quote:

One quick question though. It is your statement of willful disobedience or insolence ( please correct me if I am wrong), and its outcome. End of collar and status of property. If you as a master could see that by pleasing you, she was actually destroying herself. Would you see a need to end the union also?

OK, there's a lot of steps between "we have a problem" and "it's a terminal problem". But assuming we got to that place then you damned well bet I'd divorce her. I love the woman. Do you think I want myself or anyone else to be poison to her? In fact I did strongly try to release Carol once (reverting to a vanilla marriage) for just that reason. Interestingly, I failed to release her. It might be interesting for you to ponder how, exactly, I could "fail to release her" despite a serious and diligent effort to do so. In fact, that was the most "dominant" I have ever been with Carol and I failed totally. Here's a hint to make sure you don't go off on the wrong track. It had little to do with her "slave's nature" or whatever you want to call it. It had everything to do with her sense of honor and fair play.

I'm glad this is helping Blimey. I'm trying to get you to look at YOU rather than your mom or your ex or anyone else. Personal power is not something that anyone else gives to you nor can anyone else take it away from you. You give it to yourself and it has one fucking huge price tag attached to it. You have to want it bad enough to pay the price tag. There is a reason that while most everyone wants to be a "natural leader" or "dominant" or whatever but few are. It takes real courage and strength and commitment and is, bluntly, a fucking scary thing to do. You have to put yourself out there in the spotlight for the world to see and judge. It's much safer to armchair quarterback. That whole "the buck stops here" thing really, truly bites.



SacredDepravity -> RE: Am I switch or Dom? (11/23/2012 1:19:24 PM)

~FR~ (though I've read most of the comments)

I see a few specific things here.

1. A lot of "I". There is no "i" in team. Effective dominance tends to focus more on her. After getting a handle on who you are, what you desire, and the rest of what Jeff is talking about comes baiting the snare appropriately for a given subbie. It is about how her mind works, what her hot buttons are, what gets under her skin, what she considers beneficial and right, what she deems to be punitive. Subbies are not one size fits all. A good leader can also tailor basic skills to address a specific person or situation.

2. When it was good, it was very, very good. When it was bad, it was horrid. I had a relationship that went exactly that way. Things were so wonderful for over two full years and we had big plans. Then somewhere along the way, what I could realistically offer him was not enough...not even close. He went down a destructive path that I could not follow for my own well being. He had lost his way and it eventually cost him pretty much everything. As for me, I suffered a lot of fallout because I didn't get out of the way soon enough, but there was light at the end of the tunnel only because I walked away when I did. Might this have happened with you? Did you lose your way? Maybe she wisely recognized it before you did and saved herself at least emotionally by pulling away. Just food for thought. And that is a relationship thing, by the way, and not just some sort of d/s thing.

On the whole, I see a lot of confusion. At this stage, I don't see your needs and desires as much different from the general population out there. You want love, respect, peace, and your needs met. You want your manhood upholded by a partner rather than crushed her. You want to lead, but find yourself following and aren't quite sure how it happened. You want to believe the "I have the dick so I make the rules thing", but find that because you have the dick, you are hopelessly at the mercy of the wiles of person who might satisfy it. This is not dominant, submissive, switch, or any other lifestyle label. It is simply a lot of men's realities and means nothing more and nothing less.

Coming to peaceful terms with it is the response most employ. Some of the happiest couples I've known were quite average and had the man often jokingly, but semi-seriously saying they have to "ask the boss". They are happy and free to relate to each other as they are. I don't know why so many want to make life hard on themselves and rail against being average, normal, stereotypical, or however one wishes to put it. Most don't need to be here. Most can find fulfillment in more typical relationships. Most really have no business even signing up for this little experiment. Just like in the days of men having total control over jobs, money, legal issues, etc. was often a bad fit. Some were great at it, many were not for any number of reasons. This is a HARD road to go. There's no need to go down it unless it is actually necessary. I guess my big question to you is simply is this necessary?

Just a few quick thoughts strung together on not enough sleep and with too many distractions.

SD



theRose4U -> RE: Am I switch or Dom? (11/24/2012 11:01:00 AM)

FR
Holy crimenies!!! Feel like I've been around the world in 8 minutes with that post

Breaking down:
1)Woman you tried to bully into dominating you becoming a kajara is a gift from the universe
2)You offer a whole lot of words about someone you claim to not be interested in (so I'm calling bullshit)
3) You sound more like a guy in kink frenzy that just wants to be invited to the party than dom/switch/sub...its ok to be new, not have a clue or skills to go with the label you choose...going slow however becomes much more important for your safety & others
4)The above being said, the book list may be of great use...the loving dominant & screw the thorns immediately come to mind

I have been a dominant switch for longer than I've been on this site, other forum posts or c-mail I can answer specifics...head is still spinning from the frenzy of your post to properly apply to your situation



theRose4U -> RE: Am I switch or Dom? (11/24/2012 11:20:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: blimey69

I am confused about what happened. I know I love to please women. I know I always upset them because of things I do unexpectedly with my ADHD. I tell them and they say its fine. When it happens too much it isnt. I know thats bad I hate doing it. Would training help me overcome this? I am ignorant about the pain side of things I am ignorant to what it all involves. I feel like asking pity. I feel I must say what you want to hear to be accepted. Can we start from scratch frm the beginning? Even if you think I am worthy of nothing. I do want to have more understanding about all of the lifestyle and what it means. If it can help my self control, my selfishness?

This right here...is anything but confident, dominant or sure of yourself. To me it reads like an insecure sub that will be a whole lot of work!!
My point is...if you have no idea what you want, how the heck is a sub supposed to take care of _____.
As for this kajara...she likely will NEVER EVER be yours again. Realizing this now should free you to figure out who/what you are. Pushing & demanding things from her isn't going to make the past better, she's now on a road that doesn't include you. If she's gone as far as kajara training she's part of a well defined & structured agreement that this waffling maybe, I, uh will never be able to reach. She's involved in the exact opposite of everything that falls under the ADHD umbrella.



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