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RE: Go Hillary and Morsi! - 11/21/2012 7:40:26 PM

TheHeretic

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You made a crap assertion, Tazzy. Call it snark over reach. There is no equivalence, even if the puppies show up to agree with you.

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Post #: 41

RE: Go Hillary and Morsi! - 11/21/2012 7:49:07 PM

tazzygirl

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I dont need anyone to agree with me, Rich. I backed up my claim. Sadly, you cant see past your own hypocrisy to admit that neither side in this is blameless. Hamas wants to whine about the bad boy Israeli's and Israel wants to bitch about the snipping dog Hamas. Both could end this... both have no desire to do so. Its plainly obvious to anyone who doesnt have a political leaning one way or the other.

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Post #: 42

RE: Go Hillary and Morsi! - 11/21/2012 8:02:58 PM

servantforuse

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Israel did'nt start shooting rockets, Hamas did. I don't see this truce lasting.

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Post #: 43

RE: Go Hillary and Morsi! - 11/21/2012 8:18:14 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Sadly, you cant see past your own hypocrisy to admit that neither side in this is blameless.

More bullshit. I'm happy to acknowledge that the Israelis are active participants. And that they could be a lot more active about it, with my support.

As the great American philosopher Homer Jay Simpson has put it, "just because I understand, doesn't mean I care."

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 44

RE: Go Hillary and Morsi! - 11/21/2012 8:19:40 PM

tazzygirl

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I didnt ask you to care. Just stop spreading your bullshit and calling it rose water.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 45

RE: Go Hillary and Morsi! - 11/21/2012 9:05:52 PM

tweakabelle

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Perhaps, tazzy, just perhaps. both sides will realise from this episode that there is far more to be gained by talking to each than firing missiles and rockets at each other

It's a long shot - with Israel refusing to talk to Hamas - but in the long run, there really is no alternative. Hamas may be an obnoxious bunch of medieval theocrats but it's clear that they speak for a large number of Gazans, and they are the only body on the Palestinian side capable of enforcing an agreement inside Gaza. Like it or not, there won't be a lasting peace unless Hamas are a party to it.

We have just seen the alternative, the only alternative - it's horrible - who wants to go back there?

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Post #: 46

RE: Go Hillary and Morsi! - 11/21/2012 9:16:53 PM

tazzygirl

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No one. But one excuse I got on another thread is that there are factions within Gaza that start these truce breaks and arent the actual Hamas thats in power. Its hard to figure out just who is telling the truth and who isnt. Seems to me Hamas would worry more about controlling what is happening within its own borders if this explanation is true.

Somewhere between the two lies the truth.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 11/21/2012 9:19:29 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 47

RE: Go Hillary and Morsi! - 11/21/2012 9:32:28 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

No one. But one excuse I got on another thread is that there are factions within Gaza that start these truce breaks and arent the actual Hamas thats in power. Its hard to figure out just who is telling the truth and who isnt. Seems to me Hamas would worry more about controlling what is happening within its own borders if this explanation is true.

Somewhere between the two lies the truth.

You might find the link below useful in assessing the various claims and counter-claims. It's from the Daily Beast's 'Open Zion' site, which has consistently presented interesting perspectives on this issue recently. 'Open Zion' is edited by Peter Beinart, author of 'The Crisis of Zionism'. Beinart proposes a perspective that is strongly supportive of Israel, yet honest about it's human rights abuses and the horrors of the Occupation.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/15/bodies-for-ballots.html

For an analysis of how the US media has reported the entire crisis, this piece by Glenn Greenwald is incisive (I'm fast coming to the view that anything by Glenn Greenwald is well worth reading):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/15/israel-gaza-obama-assassinations

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Post #: 48

RE: Go Hillary and Morsi! - 11/21/2012 9:35:38 PM

tazzygirl

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Thank you, tweak.. I will be giving them both a read.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 49

RE: Go Hillary and Morsi! - 11/22/2012 3:16:02 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I`d say there are two sides in a conflict, so new ideas are the onus of both.

Sorry, Polite, but I reject moral equivalency when the position of one side is that all of the other side must die.

Funny that you would choose the phrase, "permanent solution," when talking about the Jews, though...

Funny how you can be such a prick as to link my post to the Nazis.... If I wanted to say "final solution", I would have done, I dont so I didnt.

Your post just shows how low you have sunk Rich........... shrugs.

If you had used your brain, or even just your eyes, you would see all along in this thread I have stated Hamas started lobbing missiles into Gaza and Hamas, in my view, instigated the recent violence.

The difference between us on the issue, is I can see both sides need to change their outlloks if peace is to happen. You cant though.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 50

RE: Go Hillary and Morsi! - 11/22/2012 3:18:22 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

You made a crap assertion, Tazzy. Call it snark over reach. There is no equivalence, even if the puppies show up to agree with you.

"crap assertion"........thats rich, Rich.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 51

RE: Go Hillary and Morsi! - 11/22/2012 3:22:26 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

Okay...my information being less than (accurate/pertinent....again, I don't have to live under a potential rain of terror...you are only borders away)......isn't it true (am I wrong?) that Hamas fired first?

Am I not hearing the facts (I am assuming of course that I'm not, being where I am)?

Isn't Israel being bombarded by people who truly desire to see them destroyed?

See my reply to Rich regards who fired first.

And no, I dont think the general view that every Palestinian wants Israel destroyed. That would be like suggesting all American whites think like stormfront.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)

Post #: 52

RE: Go Hillary and Morsi! - 11/22/2012 3:25:14 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Why would Israel call a ceasefire if they thought that would give Hamas a chance to re-arm, they already had troops all along the border and they could have entered at will. I would imagine part of the reason Tuesdays ceasefire didnt come into effect is that the IDF had still got a few military targets to destroy. It seems to me they have gone after just about everything run by Hamas.

One possible answer to that is the Obama is anti-Israel, and privately made it clear that we wouldn't support them in doing it, or if it escalated.

Clutching at straws here. As with most assertions about the President, there is no basis to it.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 53

RE: Go Hillary and Morsi! - 11/22/2012 3:27:25 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

This ceasefire is wonderful news. It's amazing what can happen when people actually talk to each other isn't it? Well done all involved

Israel needs to make a choice. It either faces reality and talks to Hamas, or condemns the entire region to living on the brink of war permanently. Talking produces far more acceptable results than both sides lobbing rockets and missiles at each other - and talking has never caused a single civilian casualty

Nice post Tweakable.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 54

RE: Go Hillary and Morsi! - 11/22/2012 4:50:20 PM

erieangel

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quote:

Anyone with a brain can see this is face saving rhetoric.

And blatant propaganda.

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Post #: 55

RE: Go Hillary and Morsi! - 11/22/2012 4:55:35 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

quote:

Anyone with a brain can see this is face saving rhetoric.

And blatant propaganda.

Surely they are much the same thing Erie.

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Post #: 56

RE: Go Hillary and Morsi! - 11/22/2012 5:09:39 PM

erieangel

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Hama started the rocket firing, that is true. But do you have any idea why they did so?

For that answer, here are some timelines of the events:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57552203/timeline-of-recent-israel-gaza-violence/

http://www.fair.org/blog/2012/11/15/when-does-israelpalestine-violence-start/

http://www.fair.org/blog/2012/11/15/when-does-israelpalestine-violence-start/

To make it short, on Nov. 4, Israel shot and killed an unarmed man inside the Gaza Strip.

On Nov. 8, when Israeli forces entered Gaza, a 13 year old boy was shot and killed.

On Nov. 10, Gaza militants (why are they militants but Israeli has "forces"?) attacked an Israeli military jeep, injuring 4 soldiers. That prompted a 3 day Israeli response that killed 5 civilians, 3 of them children.

On Nov. 13, it seemed that Egypt had brokered a tentative ceasefire. The next day, Israel carried out an attack that killed Ahmad al-Jabari, the Hamas military leader.

I added the final link just for giggles. It shows how Israel has a history of being the first to end a ceasefire.

(in reply to servantforuse)

Post #: 57

RE: Go Hillary and Morsi! - 11/22/2012 5:35:57 PM

tweakabelle

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"The lesson for decoding media messages on Israel/Palestine: Take note of when reporters tell you that the latest violence "started." They're picking a starting point for a reason."
http://www.fair.org/blog/2012/11/15/when-does-israelpalestine-violence-start/

Indeedies. The notion that this was "started" by a particular incident (irrespective of which side was responsible for the particular incident) omits an awful lot of relevant facts. Among them:
* Israel has occupied Palestine by force since 1967
* It is accepted that people under a foreign military occupation have a legal right to resist, (including violent resistance. Resistance forces are required to observe the Geneva Conventions when doing so. This right is not invalidated by a failure to observe the Conventions, that means that resistance forces are committing war crimes)
* Daily, and on multiple occasions daily, Israel forces commit war crimes against Palestinians ranging from destroying essential resources like housing and water wells to outright murder;
* Israel has maintained an illegal and immoral blockade on Gaza for many years now;
* Israel daily violates Gazan sovereignty by drone flights, air incursions and its navy fires live ammunition at will at Gazan fisherman conducting their livelihood.

I could go on but I'm sure you get the picture by now.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/22/2012 5:40:31 PM >

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Post #: 58

RE: Go Hillary and Morsi! - 11/22/2012 6:13:18 PM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Which is why both sides need to find a permanent solution.

I'd say the Palestinians need to come up with a whole new idea of what a permanent solution is.

I'd say Israel is just as invested in such a search...that is unless you feel they are comfortable being an occupying force ?
I was also under the impression that it was in Israel's best interest that it remain a Jewish state,something that will become increasingly difficult should it also wish to remain a Democracy.....of sorts.

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

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Post #: 59

RE: Go Hillary and Morsi! - 11/22/2012 6:32:31 PM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I have comments in the heat of the moment? How many moments have been heated? How many of these heated moments have we not heard?

Come on, even you cant be full of this much bullshit, Rich.

This the "new and improved(?)" Rich,and yes he can be that full of shit.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 60

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