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RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/17/2006 12:00:37 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks Noah.

I doubt this issue of plagiarism has anything to do with the objection but is more a personal thing which is why I'm leaving it alone.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/17/2006 12:01:12 PM >

(in reply to Noah)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/17/2006 12:17:03 PM   
MistressLorelei


Posts: 997
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		The *definition of plagiarism is taking words or ideas and presenting them as your own words or thoughts.  The italics,  and the parenthetical citations, did not appear to me like he was pretending the paragraph was his own work.  If he wanted to plagiarize, I am sure he would have been able to do a much better job concealing it.   We do tend to get rather nit picky around here sometimes, now don't we?

*Source:  Most any household or online dictionary

< Message edited by MistressLorelei -- 6/17/2006 12:19:39 PM >

(in reply to Noah)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/17/2006 12:26:35 PM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Stef, I'm surprised at you.  You think it's OK to copy text from another website without indicating the source? 

Please point out where I ever said such behavior was ok.

quote:

You're CONSTANTLY pointing out what's wrong with that and telling people just to provide the link instead.

I am?  CONSTANTLY?  Really?  I can't remember when the last time I did that was.  I recall last year we had a particularly dim person who was posting article after article that were obviously not hers and I took the time to point out from where she was lifting the articles, but I would hardly call that CONSTANTLY.

quote:

It doesn't matter what his intention was.  It's getting a little tiresome that we seem to revisit the plagiarism issue every week now.  It's simple.  You can't copy someone else's work without indicating the source.  End of story.

Yes, he should have noted the source, and as you might have noticed I'm not disagreeing with that at all.  But it's obvious (at least it was to me, and it probably was to you as well) that he wasn't attempting to pass those words off as his own.

~stef

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(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/17/2006 2:45:34 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Seriously, I think Western Civilization and its view of the world is nothing but a bunch of crap. Our "truths" are no more valid than anyone else's in the world.

Truth isn't always subjective. And I can't think of any civilization that I would trade my Western one for.

About Johnny, maybe he should stay back a grade for his own welfare, but Johnny is as valuable of a human being as any other child... just my opinion

Valuable as a human being, yes. But, if little Johnny grows up to be a deadbeat, in some ways he is not as valuable as a Bill Gates or Martin Luther King.



I would trade our civilization for small scale life, but I am ever the romantic. Most people tend to think their way is the best because it is comfortable to them. It is human nature to glorify one's own country/religion/city/state/occupation over another's. I guess that is why flag waving is to prominant at the Olympics...smiles

Martin Luther King would probably disagree about the "dead beat" Johnny being inherently less valuable than Bill Gates because Martin Luther King's brand of Christianity didn't assess human value on monetary terms or on fame. The dead beat was just as valuable to Jesus as you are...smiles.. it is interesting you names MLK for your example. I tend to come from the school of all people are equal to God, and no I am not a "Christian" although I really love what that Jesus dude had to say about things.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/17/2006 2:51:47 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Marx's ideas were embraced because of the brutal, exploitative regimes that were governing the 'lumpen prolatariate'. To quote Marx 'The worker of the world has nothing to lose, but their chains, workers of the world unite.'  When you are on the wrong end of a brutal uncaring regime like 19th century capitalism was, this must sound a pleasing clarion call. A lot of what Marx wrote made sense and is still valid today.
 
Just as there is nothing wrong with Christianity but christians so it is true of Marxism.


This is the best thing I have seen on this thread... YES meatcleaver, I am an out of the closet materialist ...not a communist, but Marx has MANY valid points.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/17/2006 2:53:09 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Too true. One can never know what another person has added to the world. The dead beat might just be an exhausted burnt out person who put too much in and got so little out of the world. Who are we to judge, our judgements are temporal, the eternal judgements, if there are any, are not ours and that is the one that counts.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/17/2006 5:22:54 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah


....And I have the impression that a court can consider intention under the doctrine of mens rea. Any legal scholars lurking?...


Enough of one to know that intent may be shown by actions... such as making sure the text could not be confused with the poster's own words, by somehow setting it apart.

Attribution, is of course another issue entirely, and I will eagerly await anyone's producing the style book which dictates the requirements for attribution when posting on internet discussion boards.

(in reply to Noah)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/17/2006 5:28:03 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		I am Googling that one rofl.

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/17/2006 6:18:21 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Seriously, I think Western Civilization and its view of the world is nothing but a bunch of crap. Our "truths" are no more valid than anyone else's in the world.

Truth isn't always subjective. And I can't think of any civilization that I would trade my Western one for.

About Johnny, maybe he should stay back a grade for his own welfare, but Johnny is as valuable of a human being as any other child... just my opinion

Valuable as a human being, yes. But, if little Johnny grows up to be a deadbeat, in some ways he is not as valuable as a Bill Gates or Martin Luther King.



I would trade our civilization for small scale life, but I am ever the romantic. Most people tend to think their way is the best because it is comfortable to them. It is human nature to glorify one's own country/religion/city/state/occupation over another's. I guess that is why flag waving is to prominant at the Olympics...smiles

Martin Luther King would probably disagree about the "dead beat" Johnny being inherently less valuable than Bill Gates because Martin Luther King's brand of Christianity didn't assess human value on monetary terms or on fame. The dead beat was just as valuable to Jesus as you are...smiles.. it is interesting you names MLK for your example. I tend to come from the school of all people are equal to God, and no I am not a "Christian" although I really love what that Jesus dude had to say about things.


Dr. King may very well have disagreed; but let me emphasize that I wasn't holding up Gates' money nor his fame as his "value", though they're both by-products of it, but I meant his talents. He has contributed a great deal to the world, and maybe I should use "higher contributor" than "higher value" to describe him.
 
As Meatcleaver said, the "deadbeat" could be someone worn down by life; that is not what I meant. I'm talking very specifically about the kind of person who is indeed a goof, that doesn't not give a damn about work, or contributing to society in a positive way. There are those in existence, you know, and not all of them are victims of society, some are just lazy, or fools, victims of themselves.
 
And while most would not consider me a Christian either, I agree that Jesus was indeed a pretty sharp dude   .

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/17/2006 6:44:16 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I think what meatcleaver said (he can correct me if I am wrong) is that the deadbeat could contribute something we do not even see or know of, perhaps his genes into the next generation will produce a scientist that will cure cancer for example. Or maybe he impacted a neighbor by his shiftless example into being high functioning. We are all threads in the tapestry, take one out and something important could unravel.. so again I will say our small pea brains cannot contemplate the value of a single human life... whether Bill Gates or Oprah Winfrey or Jeffery Dahmer... mind you, I understand what you are saying, my spiritual philosophy just doesn't agree with yours is all.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/17/2006 6:49:25 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		But you don't know what my "spiritual philosophy" is.....*takes out my pea brain, puts it on a spoon, and shoots it at julia*........it's an organic pea, btw.......

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/17/2006 7:02:27 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		it is much larger than my mustard seed sized brain...lol

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/17/2006 7:14:11 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		As I've stated on another thread, you have a wonderful brain *smiles*
 
 

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/17/2006 7:14:16 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: timeoutgurlie

I value social and emotional intelligence above so called 'practical' intelligence or those who feel they have a superior education.

A greater number of people can read, take classes, study hard, etc., but it's fewer who are the people who are respected for an intelligence that works beyond a measure of IQ.

Just my opinion.

I've met people who are members of MENSA who, frankly, were dumber by my standards than those who hadn't gone to university a day in their lives.  I worked with a fundraiser where a few of the 'elite' MENSA members attending and gave speeches, have to say that there were a handful of people I met that night whose backgrounds included no education beyond highschool, even one with a GED, who impressed me more than of those on stage I'd listened to.


As I told my 5 year old child when she called somebody stupid
because they didnt know how to play Pokemon correctly.

Ignorance can be cured.  Stupidity cannot.

She taught the person how to play Pokemon within 2 days, and they are still friends.

My cousins wanted me to go to Mensa with them.  I declined their offer with some throwaway excuse.  The reality is the idea of sitting in a room of people pontificating at how intellectually superior they are to everybody else makes me want to rip my fingernails off with vice grips. 

Just me, could be wrong, etc.

Sinergy

< Message edited by Sinergy -- 6/17/2006 7:17:44 PM >

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(in reply to timeoutgurlie)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/17/2006 8:02:34 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Then if you agree that it's NOT OK, what exactly was "I think he's just having a bad tusk day" supposed to convey?  Someone does something that you agree is not OK, I point out that it's not OK, and I'm having a bad tusk day?

People, it's not OK.  Can't a mod weigh in and explain why it's not OK to copy text from other websites and post it in CM without citing the source?  That should be pretty obvious, considering that CM is a FREE WEBSITE and open to legal action--but some people seem to need to be informed.

And the intent is completely irrelevant, despite what the wannabe lawyers on here are trying to suggest.  At the bottom of the page that meatcleaver was citing from, it says:

quote:


Copyright © 2005
Gordon Graham
 

You cannot copy copyrighted material even if you didn't intend to pass it off as your own.  (I never even said he was trying to pass the words off as his own.  Why is everyone harping on that?)

Really, what country are you people living in?

quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Stef, I'm surprised at you.  You think it's OK to copy text from another website without indicating the source? 

Please point out where I ever said such behavior was ok.


< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 6/17/2006 8:39:44 PM >

(in reply to stef)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/17/2006 8:39:03 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Uh, no, it can't be a "personal thing" because I don't know you personally.

You quoted someone else's text without citing the source.  That's all there is to it.  Another person, in your situation, MIGHT concede at this point that it was wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I doubt this issue of plagiarism has anything to do with the objection but is more a personal thing which is why I'm leaving it alone.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/17/2006 10:59:39 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Respectfully LaM, I have to say there is a difference between forgetting to cite the source and passing off another's work as one's own. He didnt intend to pass that off as his own which was obvious because it was in italics... as someone does when citing something in academic works. People post complete pages here sometimes without attribution but as long as they do not take credit it is not plagiarism. They are just being sloppy in citing a source. Someone posted an entire poem the other day and made it the opening post for his views, THAT is plagiarism, not being sloppy in citing it. If he turned in a paper to me that was cited like this I would mark it down for forgetting to source it, seeing he offset it as a quote. I would not turn him in for plagiarism, which is basically accusing him of theft. That is a very strong accusation, and not one I would make lightly.... Just my opinion

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/17/2006 11:31:26 PM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Then if you agree that it's NOT OK, what exactly was "I think he's just having a bad tusk day" supposed to convey?  Someone does something that you agree is not OK, I point out that it's not OK, and I'm having a bad tusk day?

That's not why I said you were having a bad tusk day.  It was your complete overreaction to what was probably just an oversight on meatcleaver's part that made me say that.  Everyone here, including you, knows that he wasn't trying to pass anything off as his own and yet you still jumped down his throat as if he was trying to claim he was the author of Moby Dick.

Yes he should have cited the source, no one is debating that.  Did he deserve to get called a plagiarist and get the scarlet letter?  No.

~stef

_____________________________

Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/18/2006 12:19:38 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Where are all of you people getting the idea that I said he was trying to pass this off as his own writing?  I NEVER said that.  I said he copied someone else's text and failed to cite the source.  That is plagiarism, and I do not agree that plagiarism has to include the intention of passing off someone else's work as your own.  Read the definition in the University of Southern California Guide to Avoiding Plagiarism (http://www.usc.edu/student-affairs/SJACS/docs/tig.pdf):

quote:

Plagiarism is the unacknowledged and inappropriate use of the ideas or wording of another individual.


(I chose the University of Southern California because I know that juliaoceania is an academic in California and their guidelines happen to be readily available as a PDF.  Please, show me a university where it's acceptable to use someone else's text without indicating the source.)

What is there left to discuss?  What he did was wrong.  Everyone agrees it was wrong.  Some people still don't seem to understand why it matters, but it matters.  And some people think I made a fuss about this merely because I don't like him, or was having a bad day, or God knows what.  That's absurd.  I make a fuss EVERY TIME I see someone use text from other websites.  And I don't care if it pisses them off.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 6/18/2006 12:27:38 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/18/2006 1:29:28 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		This was no more than a personal attack and you know it. I made a valid point and you did'nt like it.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 60
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