RE: Judge sentences teen to church (Full Version)

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Kirata -> RE: Judge sentences teen to church (11/24/2012 6:52:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

I read somewhere that the kid was a church-goer to begin with.

Following the principle that seems to be in operation here, we can suppose that if he been of Jewish heritage then the sentencing agreement would have required attending services at the Temple or Synagogue of his choice. I expect the judge's thinking went no further than simply that regular exposure to an accepting and supportive community would have rehabilitative value.

K.



RemoteUser -> RE: Judge sentences teen to church (11/24/2012 7:20:41 PM)

I see a problem with any judge habitually assigning probation by church in a society that claims it wants to keep church and state separate. The point is not if the defendant is religious; the point is whether you want to grant your legal authorities the power to make someone choose between a correctional facility and regular religious services.

If we were talking a city-state with its own rules, that's one thing; but this plays on a legal technicality that undermines what is supposed to be the backbone of the legal forum.



tj444 -> RE: Judge sentences teen to church (11/24/2012 7:47:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
I think Tyler should not only attend church, but also give lectures on driving impaired/under the influence, to teenagers and young adults.

I dont think anyone should be forced to attend church.. If I did something wrong (it wouldnt be driving drunk) and a judge tried to force me to go to church, I would take jail instead.. that is how strongly I feel about that (having been forced to go to church as a child until I put my small foot down & told my parents no more!)..

I can see why a kid would prefer that tho, but I doubt it will do anything for him or society (most kids would think it a joke, imo).. and quite frankly, doing the speech thing is only a good thing and works if the kid has actually learned a lesson and honestly wants to do that in an effort that others learn from his mistakes.. being forced or ordered to do that wont yield any real & good results, imo..

JMO



kdsub -> RE: Judge sentences teen to church (11/24/2012 9:03:54 PM)

quote:

we can suppose that if he been of Jewish heritage then the sentencing agreement would have required attending services at the Temple or Synagogue of his choice.


Kirata this would still be wrong. First the judge would have to determine if the structure of the church in question would meet his requirements of a church with proper rehabilitative properties...this should not be in his realm of determination. There are many venues of public service that would serve the same purpose and keep church and state separated as they should be.

Butch



tazzygirl -> RE: Judge sentences teen to church (11/24/2012 9:21:51 PM)

Take drug and alcohol assessment and submit to drug, alcohol and nicotine tests for a year;

Wear a drug and alcohol bracelet;

Take part in victim’s impact panels; and

Rehab seems to be covered.



Marini -> RE: Judge sentences teen to church (11/24/2012 9:40:07 PM)

quote:

When the girl who killed my husband by drunk driving, she was simply given 6 years in jail and only served 2 years. From what I heard way back when it happened, she only felt sorry that she went to prison, not for the killing. What did she get from the sentence? Nothing. I don't think jail is always a good solution.


{{{lw}}}, I am sorry to hear this is how you lost your husband.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the young man's sentencing.

Based on all that I have read, I guess he got a fair sentence.
He did get "off" a little bit easier than most facing similar charges.



Marini -> RE: Judge sentences teen to church (11/24/2012 9:42:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

I think a far better punishment, if he really must avoid jail, is no more driving licences.



I agree with you stella, he should not have a drivers license for at least 10 years.



TheHeretic -> RE: Judge sentences teen to church (11/24/2012 10:08:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

 
Unless I read the article incorrectly, he "set" the young man up with his pastor. Well, if this is one of those churches that has almost weekly sermons on the tithe (giving ten percent of everything you earn to the church), I'd be calling for an investigation to see if there's some kick backs going on (by his own admission, he's done this before).






I recall a judge who was taking kickbacks to keep youth incarceration camps occupied, regardless of the facts of the cases. If there is anything like that going on here, hang him out to dry.

That said, if I saw this as the judge giving church as the punishment, I woudn't call it a blurring of the line between church and state, I'd call it a violation. But I don't see it that way.

The sentence is 10 years in prison, with a, "but if." The conditions (thanks, Tazzy) of the probation go far beyond attending the church of his choice. He needs to set himself on a path towards being a productive member of the community. If he blows his chance, I don't doubt this judge will send him from the courtroom to the state prison.



Marini -> RE: Judge sentences teen to church (11/24/2012 10:15:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Take drug and alcohol assessment and submit to drug, alcohol and nicotine tests for a year;

Wear a drug and alcohol bracelet;

Take part in victim’s impact panels; and

Rehab seems to be covered.


Thanks for laying out all the terms of his sentence tazzy.
You are the resident expert at uncovering and posting "details".
[;)]



stellauk -> RE: Judge sentences teen to church (11/25/2012 12:19:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

I think a far better punishment, if he really must avoid jail, is no more driving licences.



I agree with you stella, he should not have a drivers license for at least 10 years.


No, I meant no more driving licences, period. While I'm against the death penalty I also feel that breaking the law is a conscious moral decision and that causing someone's death as a result should bring permanent consequences.



tweakabelle -> RE: Judge sentences teen to church (11/25/2012 2:02:31 AM)

I think the judge does deserve some praise for trying to do something different, something that will have far more positive impacts on the youth than jail time. Jail is by almost universal agreement, a university of crime. It is likely that the youth would have been exposed to grave dangers there - rape being one of the worst, but exposure to the criminal milieu 24/7 could hardly be character building.

The idea of being sentenced to attend religious services does trouble me. While the OP doesn't provide and details, it mentions that this judge has a habit of doing this. This seems to me to blur the lines between church and State in an unacceptable way. I would much prefer to see non-sectarian community service, say regular attendance at a D & A centre in view of the DUI charge - that would avoid the ticklish question of church-state separation and offer more community benefit (D & A centers are notoriously under resourced) as well as having a positive effect on the youth's development. Even banning the youth from having a license for 10 years would have both a far more punitive and corrective effect. Young males tend to place great store in possession of a driving license, far more than they are worth IMHO.

I would have no issue with the religious aspects if it was a genuinely voluntary agreement the convicted person enters into - but given that the judge seems to do this regularly I don't see that happening here. There are serious issues raised if the judge is using his position to promote his own personal religious beliefs. That would be totally unacceptable and IMHO would disqualify this person from holding a judicial position.

littlewonder: Thank you for sharing your story. I admire the compassionate, mature and considered approach you demonstrated, as well as your remarkable generosity of heart and spirit. It all speaks so highly of you.



cordeliasub -> RE: Judge sentences teen to church (11/25/2012 7:28:03 AM)

I think the question in my mind is....

Which is the greater tragedy....

The senseless DEATH of someone, or mandatory church for a few years....

I mean I get the whole no God thing, but by getting in a twist over church - again, with not even a mention of the dead boy......wow

And I disagree that the kid "made a mistake." a mistake is forgetting to carry the 1 in a math problem. He made a conscious choice to break the law, and someone died. Church is not going to kill him.



FlashinaPan -> RE: Judge sentences teen to church (11/25/2012 9:58:19 AM)

^^ religion is such a personal thing - to have it mandated as part of probation is absolutely wrong. He's locked into some religious contract for the next decade! If he were sentenced to jail, at least he'd have the freedom to believe what he wished.



TheHeretic -> RE: Judge sentences teen to church (11/25/2012 10:25:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashinaPan

If he were sentenced to jail, at least he'd have the freedom to believe what he wished.


He can still believe anything he wishes, just as probationers required to attend 12-step meetings (now there is fucking cult for you) can keep right on believing that they are in complete control of their drug/alcohol usage.



cordeliasub -> RE: Judge sentences teen to church (11/25/2012 10:47:02 AM)

The only person in this story who cannot choose his own beliefs is the dead boy......the VICTIM of this crime.



FlashinaPan -> RE: Judge sentences teen to church (11/25/2012 12:06:18 PM)

I don't think anyone is suggesting that there shouldn't be requirements to his probation, just that (forced) religion shouldn't be among them.



tazzygirl -> RE: Judge sentences teen to church (11/25/2012 12:11:05 PM)

How is it forced if he agreed to it?



GotSteel -> RE: Judge sentences teen to church (11/25/2012 2:17:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
How is it forced if he agreed to it?


It constitutes coercion.



tazzygirl -> RE: Judge sentences teen to church (11/25/2012 2:44:28 PM)

Coercion must be proven. How do you know this wasnt what the kid does every sunday anyways?

If that is the definition of coercion... wouldnt it be the same as forcing an DUI to go to AA?



GotSteel -> RE: Judge sentences teen to church (11/25/2012 4:31:02 PM)

I'm not talking about a hypothetical, it's not as though no judge has thought of this before 2012.

It's coercion in violation of the establishment clause.

Mississippi Supreme Court decision in Mississippi Commission on Judicial Performance v. Dearman orders that Mississippi Justice Court Judge Theresa Brown Dearman be reprimanded and suspended for 30 days for - among other things - requiring church attendance as a condition of bail.




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