RE: What is, "poverty?"

RE: What is, "poverty?" (Full Version)

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JeffBC -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (12/1/2012 12:13:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml I went to St Paul's to learn more about the issues when it was all kicking off here... the number of privileged, lazy assed, posh boys and girls who were "showing solidarity with their comrades" made me a little sick! Heh... well speaking as one of those privileged posh boys who shows solidarity with my comrades I can assure you that my interests in Occupy are as pragmatic as my reasoning on this thread. To my endless shame I could even present a "natural order" argument on the topic. To be fair though, I never even attended an occupy meeting here in Victoria, BC, Canada. I watched the twitter stream and thought to myself, "What the fuck are these people on about?" My interest and knowledge about Occupy is US specific. But back to the main thread, I'd make another argument regarding income disparity. As is clearly demonstrated in the US right now, a country produces a certain amount per year. If too much of those profits are allowed to accumulate in just one section of the economy then the rest of the economy stops. A thriving middle class is good for an economy. It makes everyone richer except the ultra-rich. So I would argue that stuff like 600:1 CEO pay multiples are not sound economic strategy. By comparison it is 30:1 in Canada which, I believe, explains why the Occupy movement here is so unfocused.

JeffBC -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (12/1/2012 12:17:01 AM)
... and you forgot to mention the trillions that are being currently funneled into their accounts via the Fed.... you know... that institution which is privately owned and entirely unaudited yet controls our entire monetary supply. But yes, here in America we are fine with providing government subsidies to the wealthy. It's only the poor that we don't want to help.

tazzygirl -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (12/1/2012 1:07:11 AM)
quote: So I would argue that stuff like 600:1 CEO pay multiples are not sound economic strategy. By comparison it is 30:1 in Canada which, I believe, explains why the Occupy movement here is so unfocused. This part never made any sense to me. Accumulated wealth in one sector means less spending in others. The more than goes to the top, the less the lower levels have to spend. And who is their customer base more often than not? The lower levels.

meatcleaver -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (12/1/2012 1:31:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic How should we determine what it means to be, "living in poverty?" Is it a measure of an individual's/family's ability to meet their basic needs, or does it simply refer to where people fall along the income scale? I can tell some nasty personal stories of living in poverty. Others, I'm sure, could tell stories that would curl my hair. To me, it's about the basics. Is there food? Is there a roof? Is there heat under that roof? Is there personal transportation? Access to medical care? The average American living in poverty hasn't gone hungry a single night in the last year. They have a car, and color television, and air conditioning, live in a structurally sound house or apartment bigger that than the regular, non-poverty stricken, average resident of Great Britain. The leading health problem among those living in poverty in America is obesity. Poverty gets defined according to the ability to keep up with Joneses, rather than actually living in genuine hardship. Is this how we should be looking at it? Poverty is not just a material need, it is also a psychological condition. People in poverty tend to be detached from and do not take part in mainstream society. People in poverty have a far higher rate of mental and physical illnesses and die far younger than the social mean. This has been researched and observed, people's physical and mental wellbeing can quickly deteriorate once people fall into poverty and the costs of this actually fall on wider society, so poverty in a society, is a very expensive condition to maintain and projections state ridding society of poverty would be cheaper. The conclusion i, poverty is relative to the society someone lives in and cannot be eliminated by giving people a minimal income, unless the minimal income allows people to take part in mainstream society. This is one of the reasons why in poor societies where people tend to mutually supportf each other, have less mental health problems than western societies where the poor can go and fuck themselves. Poverty is not a straight forward issue of not having enough money to feed and clothed oneself.

mons -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (12/1/2012 3:41:46 AM)
op How does someone let you know they are going hungry, and they do!!! That is your question right? Or is it you do not believe anyone goes hungry? It is sometimes the act of abuse, only a fool would stay with someone who is abusive! But then you leave and go from rich to poor in a matter of months, then you see your children with no food for three days! I rather be hungry then let anyone touch another hand on my children, thank god I did not have a gun for him!!!!!!!! Yes there are so many people who go hungry each and everyday here in the Untied States of America! It is more then keeping up with the Jones, hungry hurts, I know! Thank God they are grown and know not to let anyone hurt you for a home to live in, it happens everyday! I hope this is understood my writing lately is not very good, just "tired" !!!!! mons

stellauk -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (12/1/2012 11:54:12 AM)
To me poverty has much to do with the relationship between people and opportunities. I would define poverty as a situation where a person is unable to make use of opportunities to achieve a lifestyle which is productive, meaningful and fulfilling to them. This can be either because the person is unable (or unwilling) to make use of existing opportunities, or it can be also because such opportunities don't exist to begin with. In some cases it can also be that the opportunities available don't necessarily lead to a change in circumstances and the person is faced with the choice of having to make a compromise. I believe that poverty can be defined as the relationship between someone and opportunity because money in itself doesn't just have a numerical value, but also represents opportunity. For example a $10 bill is just a ten dollar bill, but different people can do different things with that dollar bill and for each that $10 will have an individual value. To someone working in Walmart it's income after spending more than an hour at work, to a customer shopping in Walmart with a 4x4 it's a few groceries. To a destitute person living on the streets it can represent food for a day or two. I come from a very poor background, and also left home at 16 and started out homeless on the streets of London. I know what welfare is, and have experienced almost every single example of destitution and poverty except for bankruptcy. The great difficulty when it comes to poverty and discussing it is caused by aspirations, what different people aspire to, or what they don't aspire to, and how we ourselves perceive poverty. The biggest single failing of welfare programs - including the welfare state - is that while they do what they can to provide material support and help to people who need it, they don't usually address the key issue which is the relationship of that person to opportunities and also finding out what they are seeking to aspire to in their lives. Welfare is both inability and failure.. on both sides - for the person affected to provide for themselves and contribute to society and also it's an inability and failure on the part of society and the system to ensure that there are opportunities or that people can make use of such opportunities. Welfare and poverty are rarely seen as important by politicians and the effect of poverty on the economy and society is disregarded in favour of what is happening at the top of society. This is where political parties miss the point, because welfare is a pretty good indicator of the state of the economy and society.

tazzygirl -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (12/1/2012 1:24:28 PM)
This just seemed so.. appropriate. [image]local://upfiles/502828/AE20AED8F8674BDF9EDD25DBC67D3AF0.jpg[/image]

Edwynn -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (12/1/2012 1:29:24 PM)
From one 16 yr. old HS dropout and early workforce participant to another; thank you. That was excellent. quote: Welfare and poverty are rarely seen as important by politicians and the effect of poverty on the economy and society is disregarded in favour of what is happening at the top of society. This is where political parties miss the point, because welfare is a pretty good indicator of the state of the economy and society. Bingo. All proper economic theories and the concomitant empirical evidence back that up, completely. People have been led to look upon the poverty level as something to deal with, or not, after the fact. As you point out, the consideration should rather be towards how to prevent such occurrence in the first place. This is territory where neither political party in this country has shown any inclination to wander into. The more powerful election scheme is claim of the aspirant to "save the day" rather than any level-headed plan to gradually improve the lot of society generally. The 'news' programs and the press certainly show their preference in that regard. Not that this latest episode, which effectively buries all the previous "efficient markets," "self regulation," "unfettered markets" et al. theories, has given sufficient impetus to change the regulatory regime as should have taken place. An unfortunate side effect of the relative success of the bailouts (i.e., prevention of a full-scale Depression) is that moral hazard has actually increased, and this 'success' has dampened the initial spark to implement meaningful change in financial regulation. Just give it time, but a bigger tsunami is on the way in 5-10 years. I think that the OP represents but one of many efforts of the apologists to cling desperately to the claims of 'efficient market hypothesis,' and other bogus and recently blown-up theories, "there are no poor people" being part and parcel of such ideology.

TheHeretic -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (12/1/2012 1:41:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn I think that the OP represents Why not try reading what the OP actually said, instead of scrambling to change the subject, every single time you have your ignorance of the issues handed back to you, Edwynn?

TheHeretic -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (12/1/2012 1:44:18 PM)
FR Thanks to all who have contributed thoughtfully to the subject of poverty, and how we define it, and offered productive ideas on how it can best be addressed.

Owner59 -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (12/1/2012 1:57:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic FR Thanks to all who have contributed thoughtfully to the subject of poverty, and how we define it, and offered productive ideas on how it can best be addressed. If only the OP was sincere about solutions...... Jeeze....all the "woe is me" cry-baby acting makes Mitt`s comments about the "47%", thinking THEY are victims, kind of ironic. Oh...and you`re welcome.[:D]

Edwynn -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (12/1/2012 2:39:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn I think that the OP represents Why not try reading what the OP actually said, instead of scrambling to change the subject, every single time you have your ignorance of the issues handed back to you, Edwynn? I and others understood the OP better than you did, as proven in many posts here. If you can't handle the truth, then deal with the shortcoming. This country will never improve the poverty situation with misunderstanding such as yours, and that is a certainty. "They have color TV," when there hasn't been a B&W TV manufactured in 40 years? Yeah, I think there is a problem, here. It was YOUR claim that there is no such thing as poor people, and all your sliding around what you did or didn't 'actually' say won't change that, anymore than someone is going to suddenly make a black and white TV in effort to help you out with your absurd and ridiculous notions.

Owner59 -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (12/1/2012 2:59:22 PM)
The "we have the richest poor people in the world" line of bullshit isn`t new.... "They have refrigorators and microwave ovens for goodness sake"....... How dare poor folks keep and cook the the food they eat.......[8\|] Maybe if more poor Americans were getting sick or dying from food borne diseases......the cry-baby-cons would feel better about welfare.....or not.

ServosCor -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (12/1/2012 3:21:18 PM)
Jumping in cold as I haven't read all the posts here but...: One afternoon I recently found myself in a situation where I actually viewed 'poverty' in my town. I had taken a few boxes of shoes that were being donated to our local Interfaith center. What I saw there woke me up and touched me a way nothing else has regarding this issue. People sitting outside of a food kitchen on a cold day, without decent jackets, in flip flops and sandels, some barelegged and in shorts, other's obviously with varioius types of ailments........waiting........for a hot lunch, for decent clothing to be handed out...... and what ever other services Interfaith might offer. It was my first time there so I am unsure of what they do offer to people......... It was truly heartbreaking to see this up close and personal. I too have, in the past, commented on what all the poor are given by our government. How foolish I have been. I have been ignorant to a plight that has been right before my eyes.........that I suppose I mentally chose not to be aware of. I am but one person........but I do intend to do whatever I can to help out those less fortunate than I. I would hope many others would be blessed with an eye opening experience and that their hearts would be touched enough to make a change in the lives of another fellow human being. ~servos cor~

TheHeretic -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (12/1/2012 3:39:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn I and others understood the OP better than you did, as proven in many posts here. Well now that's mighty interesting, Edwynn. So you are saying the little gaggle who stalk my posts are the experts on what I "really," think, huh? As I recall from one of your recent attempts to join a discussion, your knowledge of the "lower-class types," is restricted to what you see in line at the Kwik-E-Mart. The question of the OP is about how we define poverty, whether it is by actual ability to meet their needs, or simply a reference to where they fall on the economic scale. Our government will be doing it by the latter, from now on, though the Census Bureau doesn't seem to have updated their website yet. It may have been quite a while since anybody made black and white televisions, but you can still find them in thrift stores for about $10 bucks. I even have a 20 year old portable one out in the garage, as part of my earthquake kit, because it has an antenna that will catch a broadcast when the cable goes out. I work with people in poverty as part of my livelihood every day, and not as a pawnbroker who is thrilled to fuck them over on grandma's wedding ring, either. You want to go looking in the thread for your answers? Look for the post where our resident Google-trix found the statistics that contradicted what I said about the living conditions of the average American considered to be in poverty. Good luck with that.

TheHeretic -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (12/1/2012 3:41:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ServosCor I would hope many others would be blessed with an eye opening experience and that their hearts would be touched enough to make a change in the lives of another fellow human being. Amen.

tazzygirl -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (12/1/2012 3:51:27 PM)
quote: You want to go looking in the thread for your answers? Look for the post where our resident Google-trix found the statistics that contradicted what I said about the living conditions of the average American considered to be in poverty. Good luck with that. You can rip as many people apart as you want, Rich, including me. It doesnt change the facts here. And, yes, I know a bit more now. But the frustration you are feeling is only a small part of the frustration the poor go through on a daily basis. I often encourage people to look on freecycle.org. A great place for "free stuff" if you have a car or truck to go get the items and are strong enough to haul them. You see, nothing in life is free, or cheap. Something always comes with a price tag.

PeonForHer -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (12/1/2012 4:07:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer This is the honest truth, TH: Some months ago I, (a Brit, in case you didn't know) had a charity appeal email. I checked it thoroughly because I was so astonished. The charity was asking for support for children in need - in the USA. Peon, I wouldn't suggest for a second that we don't have people living at the desperation point in my country, but I'd check that charity very closely before cutting a cheque. The charity was Children in Need. They're quite well-respected here.

Owner59 -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (12/1/2012 4:45:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: You want to go looking in the thread for your answers? Look for the post where our resident Google-trix found the statistics that contradicted what I said about the living conditions of the average American considered to be in poverty. Good luck with that. You can rip as many people apart as you want, Rich, including me. It doesnt change the facts here. And, yes, I know a bit more now. But the frustration you are feeling is only a small part of the frustration the poor go through on a daily basis. I often encourage people to look on freecycle.org. A great place for "free stuff" if you have a car or truck to go get the items and are strong enough to haul them. You see, nothing in life is free, or cheap. Something always comes with a price tag. I`ve always wondered tazz...why it is that cons feel the need to bash the poor or degrade them verbally or in action,like drug testing them. Is it because they have a need to feel superior to someone else (to fill the void(s) missing in themselves) and poor folks are an easy,defenseless target? That was the premise of the false "47% are takers" comments,rich`s dear leader made Miit made...yes? There`s one jackass here who tag-lines something about having to be drug tested for his job so poor folks should be tested to get the welfare HE pays for...... There was/is a history-old, similar dynamic going on with bigoted poor whites against poor blacks.The reasoning being that they have a need to feel superior to someone else....for some reason.

tazzygirl -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (12/1/2012 4:55:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: You want to go looking in the thread for your answers? Look for the post where our resident Google-trix found the statistics that contradicted what I said about the living conditions of the average American considered to be in poverty. Good luck with that. You can rip as many people apart as you want, Rich, including me. It doesnt change the facts here. And, yes, I know a bit more now. But the frustration you are feeling is only a small part of the frustration the poor go through on a daily basis. I often encourage people to look on freecycle.org. A great place for "free stuff" if you have a car or truck to go get the items and are strong enough to haul them. You see, nothing in life is free, or cheap. Something always comes with a price tag. I`ve always wondered tazz...why it is that cons feel the need to bash the poor or degrade them verbally or in action,like drug testing them. Is it because they have a need to feel superior to someone else (to fill the void(s) missing in themselves) and poor folks are an easy,defenseless target? That was the premise of the false "47% are takers" comments,rich`s dear leader made Miit made...yes? There`s one jackass here who tag-lines something about having to be drug tested for his job so poor folks should be tested to get the welfare HE pays for...... There was/is a history-old, similar dynamic going on with bigoted poor whites against poor blacks.The reasoning being that they have a need to feel superior to someone else....for some reason. No, its because the idea that someone wont pull themselves up... its foreign to them. Until they are actually faced with the situation themselves. Its easy to say... get off your lazy ass. And you and I both have seen lazy people. But thats not the majority. And while so many are now talking about generational proverty, its only been the past maybe 10 years that we have done anything about that generational situation. The mind set, and the fears, are deeply entrenched... and not just among the poor/those on welfare. That mind set is also entrenched into society, as you have seen on this thread. Poverty will be around as long as society denies it.

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