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Why I Don't Want to Be a West Point Graduate - 12/4/2012 6:50:44 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		This should be a fun little tale for all of us to wrestle with:

quote:

The tipping point of my decision to resign was the realization that countless officers here and throughout the military are guilty of blatantly violating the oaths they swore to defend the Constitution. These men and women are criminals, complicit in light of day defiance of the Uniform Code of Military Justice through unconstitutional proselytism, discrimination against the non-religious and establishing formal policies to reward, encourage and even at times require sectarian religious participation. These transgressions are nearly always committed in the name of fundamentalist evangelical Christianity. The sparse leaders who object to these egregious violations are relegated to the position of silent bystanders, because they understand all too well the potential ramifications of publically expressing their loyalty to the laws of our country. These are strong words that I do not use lightly, but after years of clear personal observation I am certain that they are true.

. . .

I do not wish to be in any way associated with an institution which willfully disregards the Constitution of the United States of America by enforcing policies which run counter to the same.

Examples of these policies include mandatory prayer, the maintenance of the 3rd Regiment Shield, awarding extra passes to Plebes who take part in religious retreats and chapel choirs, as well as informal policies such as the open disrespect of non-religious new cadets and incentivizing participation in religious activities through the chain of command.

Complete essay at Huffington Post


I've been trying to work up sympathy for cadet-author Blake Page, but it's not happening somehow.

Maybe it's my skepticism about his taking three and a half years to realize what was going on, or my hunch that this splashy exit was a bid for free publicity--nothing scores headlines quite like martyrdom--to launch a new career as an activist.

Then again, it could be neck pain and bad-day crabbiness.



_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE
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RE: Why I Don't Want to Be a West Point Graduate - 12/4/2012 8:15:29 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		And the message?

_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: Why I Don't Want to Be a West Point Graduate - 12/4/2012 8:20:03 PM   
FatDomDaddy


Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline 		OK Cadet Page... resign and refund the Federal Government the cost of your education.

You've heard of student loans right?

Don't let the door hit you on the ass.

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: Why I Don't Want to Be a West Point Graduate - 12/4/2012 11:59:47 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		So the leadership of the military is made up of egotistical, self serving, self promoting macho shitheads.

Is that really a surprise?

I'm struggling to think of one historic general who didn't display higher than the norm psychopathic tendencies.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Why I Don't Want to Be a West Point Graduate - 12/5/2012 4:26:04 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I'm struggling to think of one historic general who didn't display higher than the norm psychopathic tendencies.


General Electric and General Motors.......... just trying to help bruv.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Why I Don't Want to Be a West Point Graduate - 12/5/2012 4:36:05 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

OK Cadet Page... resign and refund the Federal Government the cost of your education.

You've heard of student loans right?

Don't let the door hit you on the ass.


Did'nt ross perot do the same thing?

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)
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RE: Why I Don't Want to Be a West Point Graduate - 12/5/2012 4:37:33 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I'm struggling to think of one historic general who didn't display higher than the norm psychopathic tendencies.


General Electric and General Motors.......... just trying to help bruv.



I should think that those two are prme examples of higher tha the norm psychopathic tendencies.

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: Why I Don't Want to Be a West Point Graduate - 12/7/2012 8:07:07 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline 		So. . . it seems that Mr. Blake Page was deemed ineligible to be commissioned as an Army Officer.

http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/12137

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: Why I Don't Want to Be a West Point Graduate - 12/7/2012 2:08:03 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Considering I have a cousin and a great grandfather that graduated West Point, and heard them talk fondly of their experience, this bitch needs to get the fuck out of the school, she should never have applied and she is a disgrace.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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RE: Why I Don't Want to Be a West Point Graduate - 12/7/2012 4:34:22 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Ah yes, the old "Blame the messenger" syndrome.

(in reply to jlf1961)
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RE: Why I Don't Want to Be a West Point Graduate - 12/7/2012 9:31:21 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		The U.S. Military Academy confirmed that Page's resignation had been accepted and that he was being honorably discharged...
..he enlisted and spent three years in an air defense unit. While there, his commanders encouraged him to enroll at West Point.


So are 'bitch' and 'she' your terms of endearment for all of us veterans, or only those of us who want to uphold the Constitution?
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Considering I have a cousin and a great grandfather that graduated West Point, and heard them talk fondly of their experience, this bitch needs to get the fuck out of the school, she should never have applied and she is a disgrace.



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Why I Don't Want to Be a West Point Graduate - 12/7/2012 9:33:52 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

The U.S. Military Academy confirmed that Page's resignation had been accepted and that he was being honorably discharged...
..he enlisted and spent three years in an air defense unit. While there, his commanders encouraged him to enroll at West Point.


So are 'bitch' and 'she' your terms of endearment for all of us veterans, or only those of us who want to uphold the Constitution?
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Considering I have a cousin and a great grandfather that graduated West Point, and heard them talk fondly of their experience, this bitch needs to get the fuck out of the school, she should never have applied and she is a disgrace.





I was 175th rangers, and my comments was that the person in question seems to have a problem with tradition, and most of the stuff complained about is just bullshit.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Why I Don't Want to Be a West Point Graduate - 12/7/2012 9:46:56 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Yeah its such total bullshit that it has led to the replacement of at least 2 senior officers at the USAF academy.

In reality the pervasive fundamentalist christian atmosphere at all 3 US military academies has been a subject of much concern for at least the last decade.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda

(in reply to jlf1961)
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RE: Why I Don't Want to Be a West Point Graduate - 12/7/2012 9:47:01 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		No, your comments were that a former enlisted man with a good track record was a bitch and a she for being a whistleblower on the zealots at West Point. Anyone can scroll up and read what you actually said.

As far as an officer corps whose loyalty is to religious doctrine instead of to America
and the Constitution being 'traditional', it is a tradition that needs to be rooted out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

The U.S. Military Academy confirmed that Page's resignation had been accepted and that he was being honorably discharged...
..he enlisted and spent three years in an air defense unit. While there, his commanders encouraged him to enroll at West Point.


So are 'bitch' and 'she' your terms of endearment for all of us veterans, or only those of us who want to uphold the Constitution?
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Considering I have a cousin and a great grandfather that graduated West Point, and heard them talk fondly of their experience, this bitch needs to get the fuck out of the school, she should never have applied and she is a disgrace.





I was 175th rangers, and my comments was that the person in question seems to have a problem with tradition, and most of the stuff complained about is just bullshit.



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Why I Don't Want to Be a West Point Graduate - 12/7/2012 10:13:44 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		If you are a vet, you should remember this:

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Why I Don't Want to Be a West Point Graduate - 12/8/2012 6:23:06 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

If you are a vet, you should remember this:

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

If you were a vet you'd know that the last sentence is optional. I took the oath and was told I did not have to say those words.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Why I Don't Want to Be a West Point Graduate - 12/8/2012 10:28:19 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		When I took the oath they never said it was optional, or if they did I dont remember.

However, under the UCMJ, there is a clear set of guidelines to report everything the man complained about, IF it is true.

When I was in the Army, I was never required to go to religious services, and considering that I was a back sliding Catholic, I welcomed that. There was never any harassment for not attending services.

I talked to my cousin who attended West Point, and he said that when he was a plebe, services were not mandatory, although if you did not attend you usually got some form of duty (could be considered discrimination I guess.)

I mean when I did not attend services, I usually had CQ duty or some other duty to do while another man was at services.

And finally, the way I read his letter, then Chaplains in military branches would be unconstitutional.

There are so many branches of the government that have chaplains, including the house and senate, are those unconstitutional as well?

And I admit that I was ignorant of something, I thought God was mentioned in the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. God is not mentioned in the Constitution, and the word Creator is in the Declaration of Independence, which in my opinion acknowledges a supreme being, but does not clearly define that being as God in the christian sense of the idea.

By the way, I would like someone, ANYONE to cut and paste the part of the Constitution where it states there is a separation between church and state. The first amendment says there is to be no establishment of a state religion, and that people have a right to worship as the choose.

But, as to the idea that Church and State are separate, there is not one mention of the idea in the Constitution or the bill of rights.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Why I Don't Want to Be a West Point Graduate - 12/8/2012 11:56:47 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Article VI
quote:

no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

Amendment I
quote:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

 
Taken together these form the basis of 220 years of jurisprudence on the issue that the state and religion are to be kept seperate.

(in reply to jlf1961)
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RE: Why I Don't Want to Be a West Point Graduate - 12/8/2012 12:11:26 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Article VI
quote:

no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

Amendment I
quote:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

 
Taken together these form the basis of 220 years of jurisprudence on the issue that the state and religion are to be kept seperate.



I am being the devil's advocate here.

An establishment of a state religion is one form of non-separation of church and state.

However creating positions of all faiths in government shows that at some level church and state are joined. That creates a legal loophole that can be exploited, given the right conditions.

And in my research on the subject, i have found various conservative groups that seem to be planning on making a stand on those points, including the fact that church services were held in the capital.

The point they are making is that the Constitution forbids the government favoritism of ONE denomination or religion over another, and does not force citizens to be religious at all.

However, the evidence that this is a judao-christian (sp) country is already established. Look at the currency in your wallet. Do the words "In God We Trust" appear on those bills anywhere?

And at a time in our history where extremes are the norm, this little point could get ugly.

I had a problem with Romney primarily because of all the Mormons I know, none of them separate their religious beliefs from their professional beliefs. Their religion influences every decision they make.

The right has been pushing a non-denominational religious agenda for a while now, and it is only going to get worse.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 19
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