Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

A little early for the debate, but considering recent developments


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> A little early for the debate, but considering recent developments Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
A little early for the debate, but considering recent d... - 12/8/2012 3:54:48 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
Recently a computer beat the champions at jeopardy, BBC Story which is one step closer to passing the Turing test.

So, should we actually build a true artificial intelligence, there are a couple of questions that are already the center of debate.

1) Would such a system be considered alive, since the unit would have to be self aware.

2) Would such a system have rights under the law?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: A little early for the debate, but considering rece... - 12/8/2012 4:28:47 PM   
igor2003


Posts: 1718
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
These questions remind me of the Star Trek TNG episode in which these questions were discussed about Commander Data. (I believe the episode was entitled "The Measure of a Man") Here is Picard's arguement and the judges decision: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PMlDidyG_I

_____________________________

If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy. - Red Green

At my age erections are like cops...there's never one around when you need it!

Never miss a good chance to shut up. - Will Rogers


(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: A little early for the debate, but considering rece... - 12/8/2012 4:32:31 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
I have the episode in my collection, and while that is fiction, it is the real world aspects that needs to be looked at.

I routinely turn my computer off, as does most people. But in the case of an AI system, would that be cruel?

I have seen the argument that for something to be alive, it has to be self aware, and in some instances that might even mean emotions.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to igor2003)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: A little early for the debate, but considering rece... - 12/8/2012 4:35:12 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
I think a third question should be added..

Will anyone have a job after smart robots get them all?

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: A little early for the debate, but considering rece... - 12/8/2012 4:36:33 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

I think a third question should be added..

Will anyone have a job after smart robots get them all?



There are still some things that a robot cannot do.

But I see your point.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: A little early for the debate, but considering rece... - 12/8/2012 7:00:18 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

I think a third question should be added..

Will anyone have a job after smart robots get them all?



There are still some things that a robot cannot do.

But I see your point.

Let me remind you of Jane Fonda's orgasm in Barbarella.
I haven't forgotten.
Impressionable lad, I was

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: A little early for the debate, but considering rece... - 12/8/2012 7:07:54 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
And back in 1950 Isaac Asimov's "I, Robot" part of which was borrowed for a movie later. So, not early at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_robot

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: A little early for the debate, but considering rece... - 12/9/2012 4:00:26 AM   
Fellow


Posts: 1486
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

So, should we actually build a true artificial intelligence, there are a couple of questions that are already the center of debate.


We should first understand if it is possible to build an artificial intelligence . Do you have some explanation along this line? Building a computer and programming it to display certain information is an extension of human intelligence.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: A little early for the debate, but considering rece... - 12/9/2012 4:49:53 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
A computer beating humans at games does not imply consciousness and self awareness. When computers become irrational, stubborn, obstinate, overly emotional and make you feel used when you feel obliged to buy them an expensive present after you have shagged it, then I will start to be convinced.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Fellow)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: A little early for the debate, but considering rece... - 12/9/2012 7:57:18 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Recently a computer beat the champions at jeopardy, BBC Story which is one step closer to passing the Turing test.

So, should we actually build a true artificial intelligence, there are a couple of questions that are already the center of debate.

1) Would such a system be considered alive, since the unit would have to be self aware.

2) Would such a system have rights under the law?


Well, as the article you linked indicated, we're still a long way before any true form of artificial intelligence can be created. However, I think there have been some interesting developments toward organically-based processors rather than silicon

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/04/100425151146.htm
http://www.gizmag.com/organic-molecular-computer/15041/

Perhaps, someday, harvested brain tissue from animals or cloned brain tissue from humans might be used as organic processing units for computers which might be capable of becoming self-aware. It's an interesting idea, but I still find it hard to fathom at times - even though I'm a fan of Star Trek as well as The Terminator and The Matrix series where AI is the prominent theme. However, when watching those movies, I was always waiting for the other shoe to drop, that some evil (but very human) programmer behind the whole thing.

That would probably be the first hurdle in determining self-awareness, since it would be hard to tell whether it would be the work of a very brilliant programmer and computer designer - or if the device in question really is self-aware capable of independent thought. Are we dealing with something that can truly form independent thoughts and make the same choices as a rational, functioning adult? Or is it something that its programmer told it to do, in which case, it wouldn't really have the ability to make its own choices?

Whether it's "alive" or not is even more tricky. Would AI be considered a human invention, human offspring, or some sort of technological "animal," like a watch dog or a work horse? Would it be property? Or would it be given the right to refuse?

That was one of the main questions asked in the TNG episode "Measure of a Man" mentioned above. Was Data the property of Star Fleet? Even if Data was declared non-sentient, there was still the question of whether Data was actually the property of Star Fleet, since Data was merely found by Star Fleet. Star Fleet did not construct Data, although his creator was presumed dead at the time (even though he showed up in a later episode). He himself ostensibly made the choice to apply to Star Fleet Academy, to which he was accepted and graduated with honors, given a commission, and treated as a valued member of the crew. It wasn't as if he was suddenly drafted into Star Fleet, so the presumption that Data was the property of Star Fleet seemed ill-conceived on that basis as well. Another line from that same episode, "Data is a toaster" also seemed flawed, since Data was also a one-of-a-kind, created by a presumed dead scientist and which they didn't know how to build any others. So, even though he was human-created, his existence might also arguably be a work of art which should not be dismantled and possibly destroyed.

A similar question was raised in TNG (and delved into more extensively in VOY) regarding the apparent sentience of holographic characters, such as Moriarty in Data's and LaForge's recreation of Sherlock Holmes, as well as the character of The Doctor in Voyager. The holographic programs in question were so sophisticated that they developed self-awareness and developed human-like qualities and emotions even more rapidly and seamlessly than Data. There was a similar episode in VOY in which The Doctor was asserting that holograms have rights as sentient lifeforms in the Federation. It ended by showing many of his "brothers" working in a mine like slaves.

Another contrast was that Data was actually designed to be sentient, as that was the intention of his creator, whereas the holographic lifeforms just happened as unintended consequences. They weren't intended to be sentient by their programmer, but they just became that way. Similarly, in The Terminator and The Matrix series, the self-awareness "just happened" apparently against the intentions of their programmers.

But that would be the biggest obstacle, at least as far as determining their self-awareness, ability to make independent choices, and granting of rights. Is there some intention to technologically replicate human intelligence and create an actual artificial lifeform, or is it something that's expected to "just happen" as an unintended consequence of more sophisticated computer technology? Are we just making a better tool, or are we intentionally trying to create a separate lifeform with intelligence and sentience?

I think it's that we're just trying to make a better tool, and that's how it will always be used. Of course, just like any tool (or weapon), we'd have to guard against it being used for malicious purposes. That's probably the bigger issue at stake. If and when computer technology becomes that sophisticated and so much a part of everyone's daily lives (even more so than now), I think the issue of who has their fingers on all the buttons is more important than whether or not the AI has any rights.

That may be one reason why AI wouldn't be given any rights, probably because it would be viewed as under someone else's control and not really operating independently, no matter how sophisticated the technology and programming might be.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: A little early for the debate, but considering rece... - 12/9/2012 10:19:03 AM   
erieangel


Posts: 2237
Joined: 6/19/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

I think a third question should be added..

Will anyone have a job after smart robots get them all?



If we ever get to the point that robots, either AI or simply programmed to do a particular job, are doing the majority of the work for us, we would probably also have some sort of resource, non-monetary, based society.

I think AI is far from theoretical. I think it is not only a possibility, but a probability. When we do develop AI, our society will change and perhaps not for the better.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: A little early for the debate, but considering rece... - 12/10/2012 1:40:16 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
If corporations can have equal standing with people in law, on what grounds can AI computers be denied the same status?

It seems to me that AI computers have far more human features than a corporation, which is a pretty pathological structure.

_____________________________



(in reply to erieangel)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: A little early for the debate, but considering rece... - 12/13/2012 1:26:01 AM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline
A corporation, or rather the corporate structure, is no more pathological than either a computer or a spanner (wrench).

The method and implementation are what matter, it has ever been thus.

As to the OP;

The article stated that computers could already match or surpass world chess champions, but that somehow answering questions in the game show Jeopardy was the larger feat. That involves nothing but a half-decent data base and a modern search engine capability. Pardon if I'm not impressed.

When a computer could ever even conjure up the game of hopscotch on it's own rather than just learning it and playing it better than humans, much less similar creativity in inventing the game of chess or Jeopardy, then we might consider the question of self-awareness or self-directed consciousness.

I suppose that someday we could advance technology so far that we could get the computational equivalent of a Duodecillion monkeys banging on a virtual keyboard all at once and then running a mega-core parallel processing hyperalgorithm to extract a contemporaneous Shakespeare-ian equivalent out of the ordeal ...

But, we've already got auto-tune and MP3, i.e., aesthetically going in an entirely opposite direction, no different than the financial quants in regards to what would otherwise be a functional market economy. We have used higher technology for purpose of making what enters into our ears sound far worse than anything possible 40 years ago, and likewise and correspondingly the economic and financial regime.

From what is witnessed today, and the last 30 years, by the time we were to get computers to the point of true AI, humans will correspondingly be at the point of flubbing their lips.



< Message edited by Edwynn -- 12/13/2012 1:32:58 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 13
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> A little early for the debate, but considering recent developments Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.078