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The roots of extemism in religion today. - 12/8/2012 11:01:25 PM   
jlf1961


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Regardless if it is Christian, Muslim, or Judaism, extremism within a religion requires the same basic things.

1) A charismatic leader with a message.
2) A stated reason why the mainstream is wrong, even if it contradicts religious writings.
3) The restriction of free thought and questioning authority.
4) A ready pool of followers desperate for something to believe in.

Examples of the first requirement are easily picked from modern history.

Warren Jeffs of the fundamentalist Mormon church, Jim Jones of the people's temple, The Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran, and Osama bin Laden.

As for the message each of these people preached, all were different but the basic point was to appeal to the base desires of the followers.

Warren Jeffs was just the latest leader of the Fundamentalist Mormon movement, preaching that the main stream Mormon church had left the teachings of its founder Joseph Smith when it changed its belief in polygamy. Warren Jeffs took it to the extreme by marrying older male followers to underage girls. Considered a prophet by his followers, his word was law, and those that questioned his teachings were excommunicated and their possessions taken away including their families.

Jim Jones had founded his church over twenty years before, in Indiana. His preaching stressed the need for racial brotherhood and integration, and his group helped feed the poor and find them jobs. As his congregation grew, Jim Jones gradually increased the discipline and dedication that he required from the members. In 1965, he moved to northern California; about 100 of his faithful relocated with him. The membership began to multiply, new congregations were formed, and the headquarters was established in San Francisco.

Jones had a technique that was not unique to someone demanding complete obedience. His followers worked long hours and given little sleep. In the public eye, the people's temple did many good things, but that hid the underlying teachings of Jones. At various times he claimed to be God, Jesus, Buddha. Jones preached sermons concerned with nuclear devastation and the coming apocalypse, feeding the fears of his followers.

The Ayatollah preached against the influences of the western world against Islam, and preached a return to the fundamentals of Islamic teachings. He caused a paradigm shift among Shiite Muslims and became the face of militant Islam to the west for a number of years. He also led a movement in Iran to replace the secular government of the country with a fundamentalist Shiite one. The revolution he started overthrew a long standing government and replaced it with a theocracy.

Osama bin Laden is a bit different. A Sunni, his first foray into world politics was as a member of the mujahedin in Afghanistan against the soviets. He recruited freedom fighters from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and other primarily Sunni countries. His stated goal at the time was to force the soviets out of Afghanistan and put a Muslim government in its place. At this period, he did not advocate extremist views.

It was only later that he began preaching fundamentalist views, which was about the influence of the west on Muslim countries, primarily his native Saudi Arabia. He advocated a return to Muslim values, and preached against the symbols of wealth that oil money provided many Saudis. Eventually he formed Al Qaeda, originally an organization to replace western leaning governments of the Arab world with fundamentalist Muslim governments.

By this time, Bin Laden was following Wahhabism, a conservative branch of the Sunni sect. It was this reason that the royal family of Saudi Arabia ordered his arrest, and he fled to Sudan.

Bin Laden started gaining followers when he centered his teachings on the influence of the west in Muslim affairs, pointing primarily at the United States. His message was simple, the west was the reason for the inequalities in the Arab world and the cause of all the problems. He appealed to the disenfranchised Muslims of the region, and as his movement grew, to the disenfranchised in all of the Arab world.

Osama bin Laden used propaganda as a means to attract followers. His claim that the United States was constantly attacking and killing Muslims stirred up his followers. The fact that the United States supported Israel was secondary and rarely talked about.

In a round about way George Bush sr. gave Bin Laden all the ammunition he needed to push for a jihad against the United States. President Bush had American troops sent to Saudi Arabia, with the agreement of the Saudi government. Bin Laden preached against this because of the fact that the holy city of Mecca was in Saudi Arabia.

The war with Iraq was the final straw. America was the great Satan.

As I stated, all of these movements hinged on the absolute power of the leader. Followers are not allowed to question teachings, and in the Muslim movements, those that questioned the teachings were executed as heretics. Constant exposure to sermons by the leaders is common in extremist movements.

With few exceptions, the followers of these movements are the poor, disenfranchised, and those having a crisis of faith. Bin Laden for example never gave the "decadent" ways of the United States as a reason to attack us, he kept the emphasis on what the west had done to the Muslims around the world. Jim Jones attracted a lot of drug addicts in San Francisco to the People's Temple, promising them a better life through service to god. He even helped them get off drugs, a point that the civic leaders praised about him.

The Ayatollah focused on the corruption of the Shah's regime. The fact that the CIA helped put the Shah in power was another reason to get rid of him. The fact that the Iranian government under the Shah was dependent on the west was another talking point. The large gap in Iranian society due to oil income for the wealthy and the fact that none of that money trickled down to the rest of the population gave the Ayatollah a willing pool of followers.

In the United States there is a growing phenomena of the super churches. Evangelical churches with a charismatic preacher that appeals to those people who take a strict interpretation of the bible. This movement gave rise to the "Moral Majority" that promoted a close relationship between church and state. Some of these churches have been the subject of IRS and Justice department investigations.

Other extremist christian movements in the US center on the formation of "Christian" militias. These groups consist of armed fundamentalists. However at present, only a few have conducted what could be called terrorist acts. These groups are primarily white supremacists.

Strangely the primary focus of Muslim extremists, which does not get the media attention in the west, are groups that are trying to overthrow secular governments in various countries that are not predominately Muslim. There are movements of this type in Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Philippines.

_____________________________

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You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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RE: The roots of extemism in religion today. - 12/8/2012 11:28:24 PM   
Marini


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most people are not going to read all this, I know I am not.


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Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

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RE: The roots of extemism in religion today. - 12/9/2012 11:02:37 AM   
erieangel


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I read all of it and most of it is quite accurate from what I know. However, the OP glosses over some of the circumstances in Iran that allowed for the 1977 revolution and the rise of the Ayatollah.

The Shah fled Iran in 1953 after protests over his policies. The Shah was seen as beholden, if not a puppet, of the United States. After he fled, Iranians had a DEMOCRATIC election. But for years, the US and GB, through the CIA and MI6, respectively, worked to overthrow that democratically elected government and return the Shah to power. The Shah's ultimate overthrow was caused as much by the US as by Iranian opposition. I say this because by the time of the 1977 revolution, the Shah was supporting OPEC and their price increases for oil. Carter, therefore, removed US support from the Shah and his government even though government officials were insisting otherwise.

The Shah of Iran had been seen as brutal, dictatorial and fanatical. Torture was widely used against his political opponents. He even outlawed traditional Islamic garb, especially the veil in public.

This is what happens when the US involves itself in the government of other nations. We were instrumental in the overthrow of a democratically elected government, despite the US meme that democracy is best, in order to install the leader of our choice. In exchange, we ended up with having to "deal" with an even more repressive regime than either of the previous could have become.

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RE: The roots of extemism in religion today. - 12/9/2012 11:53:39 AM   
fucktoyprincess


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I agree with your basic premise. I think the important next question is how one can prevent these extreme movements from developing.

I also want to point out that it is easy in the early development of these movements to miss the significance of events, or to simply dismiss things as things which are happening half way around the globe, and that we don't have to worry our heads over - until it is too late and they are on our doorstep.

These groups rarely hide their nefarious intents.

Case in point. The Taliban first emerged as a separate faction in around 1994. Between 1994 and 2001, they were involved in many things but two things that stand out are the following.

During the rule of the Islamist Taliban regime in Afghanistan, the Hindu minority in the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan were forced to wear yellow badges in public to identify themselves as such. This was part of the Taliban's plan to segregate "un-Islamic" and "idolatrous" communities from Islamic ones. I don't need to explain to people here the parallels between this and Nazi Germany.

The second thing was the destruction of the Buddhist Bamiyan statues.

Both of the above show the extreme hostility of the Taliban to minorities, and specifically, to other religions - Hinduism and Buddhism.

It may have been easy for the Christian world to turn a blind eye to this because, after all, Christians were not the victims. But, lo and behold, 6 months after the destruction of the Bamiyan statues we have 9/11.

Part of the issue for people is to recognize that extremists don't tend to hide their hate and act fairly openly. The signs are always there. It is how we choose to act when we see them.

I encourage people who agree with what I have written to consider how the religious right acts in our country. We have extremism here to. And they act openly and do not hide their hate. When bad things come of it - I certainly won't be surprised.

We all need to stand up to extremists. I don't care what banner they fall under. Hate leads to evil. Every time.

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RE: The roots of extemism in religion today. - 12/9/2012 12:04:03 PM   
jlf1961


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In Saudi Arabia, they are trying to deprogram Muslim extremists, with some success.

They are using Muslim clerics to point out how far the extremist has strayed from the basic teachings of Islam. This actually gets the individual to think for himself.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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RE: The roots of extemism in religion today. - 12/9/2012 3:34:18 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

The Shah fled Iran in 1953 after protests over his policies.

A correction, Erie. The Shah was installed in 1953 as a puppet ruler after the American CIA and the British MI5 overthrew the popularly elected Prime Minister Mosaddeq

His administration introduced a wide range of progressive social and political reforms such as social security, rent control, and land reforms.[4] His government's most notable policy, however, was the nationalization of the Iranian oil industry, which had been under British control since 1913 through the Anglo-Persian Oil Company (APOC/AIOC) (later British Petroleum or BP).[5]

Highly recommend the film "Argo" with respect to this history.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/9/2012 3:38:21 PM >

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RE: The roots of extemism in religion today. - 12/9/2012 4:07:13 PM   
ermood


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Just a small note, Al-Qaida was not really an organisation... it had Bin Laden and some other "leaders" yes, but besides them it was just a databased with people that where willing to offer their lives for the Muslim world.

Personally i really think that the US and EU misunderstood the Al-Qaida, underestemated the Al-Qaida and had the worst approche towards the Al-Qaida.
Their points are pretty simple, that no "not-muslim" country interferes with the Muslim world... and we all saw that it began with the Iraq-Kuwait war, after that there was the invasion on Aghanistan wich incresed the influence and the amount of members of the Al-Qaida, and then there was Iraq... thanks to the high civillian deaths caused by the US and UK the Al-Qaide doubled in numbers.
And now we have these Drone attacks there wich are causing many innocent deaths to... so at wich point does the world realizes that by attacking the Al-Qaida they only make it bigger and stronger?

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RE: The roots of extemism in religion today. - 12/9/2012 4:15:52 PM   
Rule


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Al Qaida is of no relevance whatsoever. Never was.

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"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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RE: The roots of extemism in religion today. - 12/9/2012 4:18:41 PM   
ermood


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I have to add something to that...

I really don't understand this at all...
The US helped the mujahedin in Afghanistan (now called the Al-Qaida)
Then the US started fighting against them in Afghanistan ect.
And now the US is back supporting the Al-Qaida in Syria...

As you see the US doesn't give anything about safety in the region, or democracy or anything like that... they just play it the way that only they can gain a profit of it..

Same as with Iran... they where a democracy until the Shah came to power (with help of the US), a brutel dictator... now he's gone becouse the US pulled out their support for him when the last try of an coup failed... and now they are back to the point where Iran doesn't play by US rules, and thats the reason why the gouverment there has to go...
If you don't believe it then put your eyes on Iraq, the gouverment whas kicked out (wich was previosly supported by the US), the new gouverment (US tought it had them in their pocket) suddenly sides with for example Russia, China, Iran ect.
Watch out for this, it wouldn't be that wierd if the US would plan another attack against Iraq simply becouse Iraq doesn't play by US rules...


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RE: The roots of extemism in religion today. - 12/9/2012 5:47:05 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

It may have been easy for the Christian world to turn a blind eye to this because, after all, Christians were not the victims.

NOBODY turned a "blind eye" to the destruction.

The world community — from Russia to Malaysia, Germany to Sri Lanka, and, of course, UNESCO — has expressed horror at the Buddhas' destruction. Many Mullahs in Islamic countries condemned Mullah Omar's interpretation as wrong-headed and damaging to the image of Islam.~USA Today

K.

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RE: The roots of extemism in religion today. - 12/9/2012 6:25:54 PM   
kdsub


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Plenty of free thought in the US and plenty of questioning of authority...good thing don't you think.

People just believe... they are not desperate

A charismatic leader is not exclusive to religion nor needed to inspire revolutionary or radical behavior in any group.

My friend religion in America IS mainstream and right.

Butch

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RE: The roots of extemism in religion today. - 12/9/2012 7:10:51 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Plenty of free thought in the US and plenty of questioning of authority...good thing don't you think.

People just believe... they are not desperate

A charismatic leader is not exclusive to religion nor needed to inspire revolutionary or radical behavior in any group.

My friend religion in America IS mainstream and right.

Butch



True, Charismatic leaders are not restricted to Religion, just look at Hitler.

However, in the religious context, a Charismatic Preacher proclaiming a "special" message from god appeals to a certain fraction of the human population.

Some leaders use their control to get people to kill, as in terrorist groups.

However, some leaders actually get their followers to voluntarily commit suicide, like in the Heaven's Gate cult.

A recent phenomena are 'Doomsday" cults. I say recent since in the last ten years, cults of this type spring up often. Some of these groups are harmless, setting up compounds so that they can be the people to survive doomsday and help rebuild the world. A small percentage of these groups actually want to help bring about doomsday.

The Sarin attacks on the Tokyo subway system some years ago are a good example of this type of cult.

These extremist groups appeal to the disenfranchised or people that have suffered a severe loss, and finally people who suffered some sort of constant physical or psychological abuse.

The message is follows a simple pattern.

The leader points out a reason for their feelings, drives home the symbolic enemy, and finally preaches a message of vengeance.

The key to making this work is to keep the followers from thinking for themselves, and keep them from asking too many questions.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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RE: The roots of extemism in religion today. - 12/9/2012 7:39:15 PM   
SimplyMichael


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It was rayguns stupid intervention in lebanon and how effortlessly he folded after the attack that convinced Osama that america was a paper tiger.

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RE: The roots of extemism in religion today. - 12/10/2012 12:57:23 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

True, Charismatic leaders are not restricted to Religion, just look at Hitler.



Charisma doesn't exist outside a two way conversation. Leaders are Charismatic because their followers are looking for a charismatic leader to solve all their problems. In a stable society charismatic leaders don't exist, the most you get is some opportunist leader of a cult of psychological vulnerable people. Hitler came to power in an economic crisis and when Germany was under pressure from the hostile victors of WWI and he was the most charismatic when he was at his most successful. However, his generals didn't observe any charisma and most were against war until the easy annexation of Austria, an east victory in Poland and the collapse of France in the west, when if they tried to stop the war, their own soldiers would have turned on them. Hitler's charisma started to dissolve very quickly when the tide started to turn and the RAF bombed Berlin, something he promised wouldn't happen. From there it was all down hill for his charisma.

The Ayatollah's charisma didn't last that long once he was in power either and he only extended it by posturing at the great Satan who had been puppeteer of the previous hated regime. 

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RE: The roots of extemism in religion today. - 12/10/2012 8:48:26 AM   
TheBoyDownBelow


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Regardless if it is Christian, Muslim, or Judaism, extremism within a religion requires the same basic things.

1) A charismatic leader with a message.
2) A stated reason why the mainstream is wrong, even if it contradicts religious writings.
3) The restriction of free thought and questioning authority.
4) A ready pool of followers desperate for something to believe in.


IMO these are just the basic ingredients for a cult, not necessarily limited to religion, and may be not extreme. Add a message of hate into that mix is where the real extremism starts. Teach hate, and suggest to act on it is the real perversion. Hate as in Jews within Nazi Germany, any other Race withing the Arian Nation, American within certain fractions of the Moslem community, or as simple as hating all Atheists as a Christian.

In order for such a cult to stay in power, one have to have an enemy. More too often you have to invent one, and battle them to the teeth, in order to justify your own existence.

< Message edited by TheBoyDownBelow -- 12/10/2012 8:55:40 AM >

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RE: The roots of extemism in religion today. - 12/10/2012 9:23:34 AM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

It may have been easy for the Christian world to turn a blind eye to this because, after all, Christians were not the victims.

NOBODY turned a "blind eye" to the destruction.

The world community — from Russia to Malaysia, Germany to Sri Lanka, and, of course, UNESCO — has expressed horror at the Buddhas' destruction. Many Mullahs in Islamic countries condemned Mullah Omar's interpretation as wrong-headed and damaging to the image of Islam.~USA Today

K.



Expressing horror while also not doing anything is, in effect, turning a blind eye.

If I sit here in my comfortable little room just denouncing evil, but not actually doing anything about it, that doesn't really help anyone.

Lots of people during WWII were denouncing Nazi treatment of Jewish citizens, too. But that didn't save any people.

So sitting around and expressing horror over the statues, or horror over Hindus being forced to wear yellow badges, doesn't actually stop the Taliban in their tracks, does it?

Read my statements within the context of the whole post - where I ask people to actually intervene when extremists start doing stuff like that. It is stupid to act surprised when hateful groups start doing hateful things - especially when they've already done hateful things in the past and no one even tried to stand up to them.





< Message edited by fucktoyprincess -- 12/10/2012 9:25:29 AM >


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RE: The roots of extemism in religion today. - 12/10/2012 9:28:11 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Expressing horror while also not doing anything is, in effect, turning a blind eye.


And actually doing something is called extremism, as a rule.

quote:

Lots of people during WWII were denouncing Nazi treatment of Jewish citizens, too. But that didn't save any people.


I'm not sure "lots" is very appropriate, but certainly some.

How do you suggest they do something?

Write a petition?

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: The roots of extemism in religion today. - 12/10/2012 9:34:28 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Expressing horror while also not doing anything is, in effect, turning a blind eye.

The Taliban are much more prolific at killing people than statues, and we were fighting them long before they started destroying the Bamiyan buddhas. How many dead troops is enough to qualify as "doing something" in your exalted opinion?

K.

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