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Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets - 12/10/2012 6:15:28 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Perhaps it's because Nicholas Kristof found some examples in rural America, instead of among demographics that are politically incorrect to criticize, but some rather remarkable admissions have graced the pages of the New York Times, along with an account of a disgraceful and disgusting scam.

Profiting From a Child�s Illiteracy - Nicholas Kristof - New York Times

I have a pet peeve that I'll often raise, about program rules that disincentivize work, and punish teens who would like to get started breaking the cycle of poverty, but what Kristof describes is even more repulsive.



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RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets - 12/10/2012 7:49:19 PM   
Yachtie


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Status: offline 		My question is, how is it possible for those who design programs like that to not be able to game out scenarios yielding outcomes like this? It almost seems like it's purposeful.

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RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets - 12/10/2012 8:17:21 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Yawn......



Maybe you two can tell us how to stop defense contractor fraud and save us like a ten thousand times more dollars....

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RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets - 12/10/2012 8:37:35 PM   
stellauk


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Status: offline 		Yes.. it's the product of neo-liberalism.. the 'support industry' which creates business out of welfare and profits from people's misfortunes.

It's why I will no longer have anything to do with two major homeless charities here who screwed me for two years of unpaid work, one trying to steal my ideas. Of course they have 'vulnerable' hostel residents (many of whom were so 'vulnerable' that they were left to fend for themselves on the streets before anyone took any notice).

I also had to go through this system when I came back to the UK, I got the help I needed but still had to fight to get a few 'support workers' or 'case workers' to bugger off out of my life.

If you read the Daily Mail you would be under the impression that we have all these asylum seekers and refugees jumping the housing list and getting flats and handouts. This isn't how it is in reality, it's more like asylum seekers and refugees being trapped in hostels and bed and breakfast hotels for years so various charities and non-profits can milk the local authorities for housing benefit, with full cooperation of... the local authorities.

This is why you have people stuck on welfare benefits for so long. They aren't scrounging but are genuinely trapped in a situation they cannot easily get out of usually in a system of government agencies, charities and non-profits only too eager and too willing to make a tidy profit from their misfortune.

Suffice to say there's a few charities who don't really give a stuff about their beneficiaries. They're just in it for the money. Just like the corporates.

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RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets - 12/10/2012 8:51:44 PM   
erieangel


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Status: offline 		Have you stopped to consider that perhaps people take advantage of the SSI program because they have already lost hope?

Yes, we have to hit poverty where it starts, with the children.

We also have to give the parents not only opportunities, but the means to take advantage of those opportunities without them suffering negative consequences of doing so.

If the road out of poverty truly is education, then education the kids and provide the parents with whatever assistance is necessary to provide a roof, clothing and food until those children are 18 or out of school.

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RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets - 12/10/2012 8:54:40 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Well, I was always taught not to assign malice to a motive, where plain old stupidity would fit just as well, Yachtie.

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RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets - 12/10/2012 8:57:25 PM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		Which would explain the conservative`s penny-wise, pound foolish POV of the world......

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RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets - 12/10/2012 9:01:09 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

Have you stopped to consider that perhaps people take advantage of the SSI program because they have already lost hope?




Pulling your children out of a learn-to-read program so you don't fuck up the welfare isn't "taking advantage," Erie. It ought to be grounds for removing those children from the home.

But then, there are mothers who whine for sympathy and handouts because of their poor disabled child, but never mention that the birth defect was fetal alcohol syndrome.



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RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets - 12/10/2012 9:03:30 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

Have you stopped to consider that perhaps people take advantage of the SSI program because they have already lost hope?




Pulling your children out of a learn-to-read program so you don't fuck up the welfare isn't "taking advantage," Erie. It ought to be grounds for removing those children from the home.

But then, there are mothers who whine for sympathy and handouts because of their poor disabled child, but never mention that the birth defect was fetal alcohol syndrome.




Yep, there are. But try and do something to mitigate the chances of FAS and people cry that you are violating their rights.


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RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets - 12/10/2012 9:15:44 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Well, I don't read the Daily Mail, Stella, outside of the odd bit of international coverage, on US politics. My knowledge comes much more directly.

All too often in our poverty programs, as in what you describe here of yours, the people most in need of aid are merely the product an organization makes its money on.

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RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets - 12/10/2012 9:30:16 PM   
erieangel


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quote:

Pulling your children out of a learn-to-read program so you don't fuck up the welfare isn't "taking advantage," Erie. It ought to be grounds for removing those children from the home.


No. It should be grounds for looking into why those kids are on SSI in the first place and why the family feels they need that money. If they money really is needed due to lack of job opportunities or any other reason, then perhaps assuring them the assistance will continue to come until the child becomes an adult is the way to go here?

I know, many would be angered about the idea of support a family simply because they have some "perceived" need. But really is simple housing, food and clothing a "perceived" need? In my book, those are human needs and we, as a society should decide if we want to provide for those unable, even unwilling, to provide the basics for themselves or if we are willing to watch them die in the streets.

I vote that we provide the basics.

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RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets - 12/10/2012 9:37:21 PM   
Rastimmipitwax


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

My question is, how is it possible for those who design programs like that to not be able to game out scenarios yielding outcomes like this? It almost seems like it's purposeful.


It has been said that the education system in the US is the way it is because the government doesn't want another 60s, with intelligent, educated citizens rallying to protest their BS. Things like this make you wonder if the conspiracy theorists might occasionally be right.

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RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets - 12/10/2012 9:39:02 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Try reading the article, Erie.

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RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets - 12/10/2012 9:51:43 PM   
erieangel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Try reading the article, Erie.



I did.

Admittedly, my comprehension isn't at its best at midnight. I've had a long day of appointments, then 8 hours of work in which I had to take a client shopping which always zaps my strength.

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RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets - 12/10/2012 9:57:41 PM   
subrob1967


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Status: offline 		Our wonderful President and Vice President haven't lost hope... This is exactly what they wanted, campaigned successively for, and won.

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RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets - 12/10/2012 10:06:28 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		The increases in SSDI cases over the recent years are pretty astounding, Rob. I saw a stat recently, stating that over a given year (2011, I think) we added 1.8 million new jobs to the economy, and 790,000 new working age adults to the long-term disability rolls.

That doesn't seem like a healthy ratio.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets - 12/10/2012 10:10:47 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

Admittedly, my comprehension isn't at its best at midnight. I've had a long day of appointments, then 8 hours of work in which I had to take a client shopping which always zaps my strength.




Long days do suck, Erie. Go to bed. The week is just beginning.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets - 12/11/2012 12:52:58 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		I suspect the problem here is counting illiteracy as a disability and not as a failure in the education system.

Can someone tell me why parents are paid a cheque because their children can't read? Socialism isn't this generous or stupid with money, a socialist government would put the money into the education system to improve it.

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RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets - 12/11/2012 1:42:16 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk
If you read the Daily Mail you would be under the impression that we have all these asylum seekers and refugees jumping the housing list and getting flats and handouts. This isn't how it is in reality, it's more like asylum seekers and refugees being trapped in hostels and bed and breakfast hotels for years so various charities and non-profits can milk the local authorities for housing benefit, with full cooperation of... the local authorities.

This is why you have people stuck on welfare benefits for so long. They aren't scrounging but are genuinely trapped in a situation they cannot easily get out of usually in a system of government agencies, charities and non-profits only too eager and too willing to make a tidy profit from their misfortune.


I disagree with that premise stella - from direct personal experience.

Here's an email I sent to my local MP about 6 months ago -
There are a number of discrepancies in the benefits system where housing is concerned and some people, myself included, are very peeved at how some people are able to jump the housing queues simply because of some idiotic rule or other that really needs to be sorted out. The example I am quoting here (and it’s quite a long one dealing with several issues) happened to me a while ago but is still very relevant today and all of this information wasn’t guesswork, it was what I gleaned from chatting to the people involved. Let’s take the situation of four groups of people, all trying to claim housing allocation and the various benefits that go with it….
1) The “average” couple with 2.4 kids (we’ll round it down to 2 for this example). Been waiting on the housing list for over 4 years and not been offered anywhere to date.
2) A young girl (under 20), visibly pregnant with 6 kids and a new boyfriend. Been waiting about 6 months for somewhere to live because her mum was fed up with all the kids living at home. She openly admitted that she wants as many kids as possible so the council will provide a decent home for her and her boyfriend and lots of money in benefits.
3) Myself with a nearly 7-month pregnant wife about to have a baby with a note from the doctor about a weak amniotic bag having already lost 1 child at 3 days old that was born at 27 weeks. We had been waiting for a couple of years but nothing was forthcoming as we didn’t have any living children to help boost our points allocation.
4) A Pakistani immigrant with 3 wives and 15 kids (or was it 16? I can’t remember) and only been in the country for one week and seeking asylum. He was living with his brother’s family but was ordered out by the local council for causing overcrowding. Not been on the housing list at all.

We were all waiting at our respective windows at the housing office (not here I might add) being attended to by our housing officers dealing with our housing claims.
The first couple, Mr & Mrs average with 2 youngish kids both going to school was told they didn’t have any suitable housing and they would have to continue waiting.
The young girl was told that her boyfriend didn’t count unless she could prove he was living with her permanently but there was a 3-bed unfurnished council house coming up in the next few weeks in a local village if she wanted it but she would have to wait until the family living there had moved out and the council had inspected it and done any fixing necessary. She was given a grant for almost £2,000 to buy furnishings for the house she had just been allocated.
I was very bluntly told there was a 7 year waiting list and the best they could do was a B&B 3 miles outside of town for up to 3 months on ‘emergency housing’ – take it or leave it. With my wife being 7 months pregnant and very likely to drop the baby any day soon, we took it.
The Pakistani immigrant was waiting for the housing officer to locate the keys for a fully-furnished 6-bedroomed house (two 3-bed houses knocked together into a single dwelling) that the council would pay for – rent and council tax. He was also given a giro for just over £1,000 for immediate expenses for his family.

It is obvious that the result from the four housing applications is very unfair and it’s no wonder that British people are unsympathetic towards immigrants and young girls who can’t keep their legs shut and refuse to go on the pill.
The average couple complained bitterly that the young girl was given a house before they were even though they had been waiting a long time. The housing officer just shut the window on them and they left the building very disgruntled.
The young girl was very happy and started filling in a form to accept the house that she had been offered.
The Pakistani man was absolutely beaming and rubbing his hands together.
I was so furious about the whole situation that I shouted at the housing officer and was bodily escorted from the building by security guards with the threat of being arrested for disorderly conduct.

So there is an actual real-life scenario that I actually lived through.
My step-daughter, who is 23 and single, has been told she'll have to wait until she's at least 25 before she will be accepted to go on the housing list and there is a minimum 6 year waiting time.
She sees this type of scenario almost every week with immigrants and assylum seekers that haven't been in the country five minutes.


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I suspect the problem here is counting illiteracy as a disability and not as a failure in the education system.

Can someone tell me why parents are paid a cheque because their children can't read? Socialism isn't this generous or stupid with money, a socialist government would put the money into the education system to improve it.


You don't get a disability payment just because your child is illiterate.
You have to prove that there is some medical condition that makes that child illiterate or unable to learn in mainstream schools.

Though I do take issue with so many parents that can't be assed to raise their kids in a sensible manner and end up with unrully kids that run riot and stick the label of ADD or ADHD on them to get the disability payments.
Our immediate neighbour is one of such parents. It makes me sick that she's fooled the 'system' into paying disability payments for her kids.


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RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets - 12/11/2012 2:00:46 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

My step-daughter, who is 23 and single, has been told she'll have to wait until she's at least 25 before she will be accepted to go on the housing list and there is a minimum 6 year waiting time.
She sees this type of scenario almost every week with immigrants and assylum seekers that haven't been in the country five minutes.



We all know where the housing crisis stems from, the Thatcher years and the selling off of social housing and I'm afraid to say, people voted for that, time and again so much so, Labour didn't reverse the policy.

In fact most problems in society come from people's short termism and what is good for them today, rather than what is best for society as a whole will eventually be best for them. When it comes to housing and transport, there is nothing so true. British short termism has created a housing crisis with the most expensive houses (and most shoddily built) in Europe. If you remember, the Tories did away with many building regulations so now you can call a room too small to put a single bed in, a bed room, garages which modern cars can't fit in, bathrooms without baths etc etc. As for the public transport system, not even a third world country would be proud of the British transport system. Buying a train ticket is like buying an expensive lottery ticket because you never know if you are going to reach your destination on time, if you reach it at all.

People get what they vote for and britain is now paying for 18 years of Tory rule and 13 years of NuLabour Pinko-Tory rule.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/11/2012 2:02:14 AM >

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