RE: The Bigot`s Case Against Homosexuality (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: The Bigot`s Case Against Homosexuality (12/12/2012 5:40:00 PM)

~FR

2 different cases...

1 - In the 2003 decision, Scalia harshly criticized the court’s decision that struck down a Texas anti-sodomy law that had been used to convict a gay man of having sex with another man in his own apartment. The opinion by Justice Anthony Kennedy overturned a 1986 ruling in Bowers v. Hardwick that had upheld state sodomy laws.

Scalia wrote in his dissent:

“The Texas statute undeniably seeks to further the belief of its citizens that certain forms of sexual behavior are ‘immoral and unacceptable,’ . . . the same interest furthered by criminal laws against fornication, bigamy, adultery, adult incest, bestiality, and obscenity. Bowers held that this was a legitimate state interest. The Court today reaches the opposite conclusion. The Texas statute, it says, ‘furthers no legitimate state interest which can justify its intrusion into the personal and private life of the individual,’ …The Court embraces instead Justice [John Paul] Stevens’ declaration in his Bowers dissent, that 'the fact that the governing majority in a State has traditionally viewed a particular practice as immoral is not a sufficient reason for upholding a law prohibiting the practice,' . . . This effectively decrees the end of all morals legislation. “

He also questioned whether the laws against same-sex marriage can survive if “moral disapproval” is not a reasonable basis for upholding them, in effect predicting the cases the court agreed to hear Friday.

“Today’s opinion dismantles the structure of constitutional law that has permitted a distinction to be made between heterosexual and homosexual unions, insofar as formal recognition in marriage is concerned. If moral disapprobation of homosexual conduct is ‘no legitimate state interest’ for purposes of proscribing that conduct . . . and if, as the Court coos (casting aside all pretense of neutrality), ‘[w]hen sexuality finds overt expression in intimate conduct with another person, the conduct can be but one element in a personal bond that is more enduring,’ what justification could there possibly be for denying the benefits of marriage to homosexual couples exercising ‘[t]he liberty protected by the Constitution.’”


2 - In 1996, Scalia dissented when the court struck down an anti-gay initiative from Colorado. There, he made a reference to murder:

“The Court's opinion contains grim, disapproving hints that Coloradans have been guilty of ‘animus’ or ‘animosity’ toward homosexuality, as though that has been established as Unamerican. Of course it is our moral heritage that one should not hate any human being or class of human beings. But I had thought that one could consider certain conduct reprehensible -- murder, for example, or polygamy, or cruelty to animals -- and could exhibit even ‘animus’ toward such conduct. Surely that is the only sort of ‘animus’ at issue here: moral disapproval of homosexual conduct.”



http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-scalia-laws-homosexuality-murder-20121211,0,2870681.story

He is more worried about the morality of such issues.




slvemike4u -> RE: The Bigot`s Case Against Homosexuality (12/12/2012 5:40:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Now, add in the beastiality issue.

Its something we often preach on this site....

Consent.

2 adults can consent to a relationship.. and lets face it.. sodomy doesnt have to involve any men at all... thanks to toy stores. But, without consent, its rape.

Rape is illegal... no consent....

Murder is illegal.... its the unlawful killing of someone... and the law says no one can consent to being murdered.

Beastiality.... again.. an animal cannot consent.

To me, these are not moral issues, they are all legal ones

To be fair,and to play Devils advocate...a good Republican mind see;s the moral as a legal issue.
That's why they keep getting into trouble around election time [:)]




slvemike4u -> RE: The Bigot`s Case Against Homosexuality (12/12/2012 5:47:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

~FR

2 different cases...

1 - In the 2003 decision, Scalia harshly criticized the court’s decision that struck down a Texas anti-sodomy law that had been used to convict a gay man of having sex with another man in his own apartment. The opinion by Justice Anthony Kennedy overturned a 1986 ruling in Bowers v. Hardwick that had upheld state sodomy laws.

Scalia wrote in his dissent:

“The Texas statute undeniably seeks to further the belief of its citizens that certain forms of sexual behavior are ‘immoral and unacceptable,’ . . . the same interest furthered by criminal laws against fornication, bigamy, adultery, adult incest, bestiality, and obscenity. Bowers held that this was a legitimate state interest. The Court today reaches the opposite conclusion. The Texas statute, it says, ‘furthers no legitimate state interest which can justify its intrusion into the personal and private life of the individual,’ …The Court embraces instead Justice [John Paul] Stevens’ declaration in his Bowers dissent, that 'the fact that the governing majority in a State has traditionally viewed a particular practice as immoral is not a sufficient reason for upholding a law prohibiting the practice,' . . . This effectively decrees the end of all morals legislation. “

He also questioned whether the laws against same-sex marriage can survive if “moral disapproval” is not a reasonable basis for upholding them, in effect predicting the cases the court agreed to hear Friday.

“Today’s opinion dismantles the structure of constitutional law that has permitted a distinction to be made between heterosexual and homosexual unions, insofar as formal recognition in marriage is concerned. If moral disapprobation of homosexual conduct is ‘no legitimate state interest’ for purposes of proscribing that conduct . . . and if, as the Court coos (casting aside all pretense of neutrality), ‘[w]hen sexuality finds overt expression in intimate conduct with another person, the conduct can be but one element in a personal bond that is more enduring,’ what justification could there possibly be for denying the benefits of marriage to homosexual couples exercising ‘[t]he liberty protected by the Constitution.’”


2 - In 1996, Scalia dissented when the court struck down an anti-gay initiative from Colorado. There, he made a reference to murder:

“The Court's opinion contains grim, disapproving hints that Coloradans have been guilty of ‘animus’ or ‘animosity’ toward homosexuality, as though that has been established as Unamerican. Of course it is our moral heritage that one should not hate any human being or class of human beings. But I had thought that one could consider certain conduct reprehensible -- murder, for example, or polygamy, or cruelty to animals -- and could exhibit even ‘animus’ toward such conduct. Surely that is the only sort of ‘animus’ at issue here: moral disapproval of homosexual conduct.”



http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-scalia-laws-homosexuality-murder-20121211,0,2870681.story

He is more worried about the morality of such issues.

The colored sentence is where,in my opinion,he goes off the rails.
Where is the legitimate state interest in what goes on in a bedroom between two(or more) consenting adults ?
Why is,or why should,the state lose any sleep over what is being stuck where ?
How is the states interest harmed in any way over such a matter ?
Surely only the most prurient amongst us even cares what goes on in a neighbors bedroom....and the state should have no interest at all in satisfying that particular interest




ThatDaveGuy69 -> RE: The Bigot`s Case Against Homosexuality (12/12/2012 6:58:48 PM)

Not sure if this point was made - I glossed-over a couple of the responses...

I have a huge problem with Scalia's argument because only 2 of the 3 are choices made by the individual.
You can choose to kill another person.
You can choose to fuck sheep.
You cannot choose to be gay. Or straight. Or anything in between.

~Dave




Laymedown60 -> RE: The Bigot`s Case Against Homosexuality (12/12/2012 7:48:16 PM)

So… he is saying that States should have the right to legislate morality and show animus towards homosexuals because it is immoral conduct?

In effect HE is saying homosexuals are immoral… he would have to agree with this statement in order to dissent otherwise how could he come to that judgment?

Butch




erieangel -> RE: The Bigot`s Case Against Homosexuality (12/12/2012 7:53:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


It is perfectly clear that equating laws banning sodomy with those barring bestiality and murder cannot be reduced to equating sodomy with bestiality and murder.
    Scalia said he is not equating sodomy with murder but drawing a parallel between the bans on both...

    Hosie said afterward that he was not persuaded by Scalia's answer.
Hosie is an idiot.

K.




Hosie is extremely in gay rights and the equal marriage question because he is gay.

Of course, he wasn't persuaded by Scalia's dumb slippery slope--it was dumb.




cloudboy -> RE: The Bigot`s Case Against Homosexuality (12/12/2012 8:59:47 PM)


As I'm getting older, I'm feeling behind the times, but looking at Scalia I know that I'm at least way ahead of him. To uphold the marriage law, the justices will have to identify a compelling government interest to exclude gays from the institution.




JeffBC -> RE: The Bigot`s Case Against Homosexuality (12/12/2012 9:02:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
You can legislate anything you want...it is up to the courts if that particular legislation...and others like it...violate the Constitution. I don't quite understand where he is coming from myself. Just because it is possible to legislate the basic human rights of gays does not make it right because there is legislation on bestiality or murder.

Well no... it doesn't make it right to me and to you. But we see the problem differently... or at least I do (not wanting to speak for you). To me someone being gay is a lot like them being black or blonde or tall or whatever. Heck, if I want to go all moralistic I could even call it a birth defect. But whatever it is it's a pretty safe bet that it wasn't a "choice" in most cases. Nor do I perceive the harm to me if the neighbors are getting up to stuff in their bedroom that I disapprove of.

But here's the deal. The religious fundamentalists don't think like I do. They don't see "gayness" as a physical reality, they see it as a spiritual defect. They don't want "sickos" around their children and their schools and whatnot any more than I do. We just define "sicko" differently. What if the argument is not "reduction to the absurd".... what if it's not absurd in his eyes? That sort of changes the conversation.

But yeah... as a society we can do things like legislate against blacks or gays or whatever. We can and must discriminate on some basis or the other (as we do against murderers for instance). If there were any goodness in the world the political process would be how we do that but honestly it's hard for me to believe that any politician gives a rats ass about anything any of us think.




Owner59 -> RE: The Bigot`s Case Against Homosexuality (12/12/2012 9:13:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


As I'm getting older, I'm feeling behind the times, but looking at Scalia I know that I'm at least way ahead of him. To uphold the marriage law, the justices will have to identify a compelling government interest to exclude gays from the institution.



I`m a big believer in America.....not just the place but the ideals.

The last best hope on earth...as President Lincoln put it.

But this kind of thing challenges my hopes.

How could such an unsophisticated boar, come to such a high position over so many Americans to do so much harm?




Kirata -> RE: The Bigot`s Case Against Homosexuality (12/12/2012 9:30:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Scalia wrote in his dissent:

"This effectively decrees the end of all morals legislation."

In that single sentence is both the heart of Scalia's objection, and the problem with it.

Morality can only be whatever some legislature says it is if morality is purely relative, merely a cultural phenomenon. And if that's the case, then the end of all morals legislation would be something highly to be desired. Because absent standards, principles, that legislatures are not empowered to transgress, morality - like history - becomes whatever the winner says it is.

For Americans, the standards and principles intended to guide our legislation and inform our jurisprudence are found in the Constitution of the United States. And no matter how you choose to interpret it, one thing about the Constitution is inarguable: It does not embody moral relativism. So for Scalia to hold a view with such contrary implications is remarkable, and I think not well-considered.

Laws against homosexuality and gay marriage are an assault on the personal liberty of the American citizens they affect that has no over-riding secular necessity or benefit. So Hosie may be detecting something real in his opinion of Scalia. But his parsing of Scalia's argument as equating sodomy with murder is still bunk. What Scalia is doing is something else entirely: He's equating morality with culture.

Maybe our current homophobic culture suits him, and he doesn't want to see it change.

K.




tazzygirl -> RE: The Bigot`s Case Against Homosexuality (12/12/2012 9:36:32 PM)

Thats why I said....

This is his argument.... which... while I understand it, I dont agree with it.

We cant legislate morality. We can try... and we will fail.




Owner59 -> RE: The Bigot`s Case Against Homosexuality (12/12/2012 9:45:28 PM)

How could anyone....know what the morals of another are without knowing what`s in their hearts,1st?

It`s not possible.




tazzygirl -> RE: The Bigot`s Case Against Homosexuality (12/12/2012 10:06:15 PM)

For example... we legislate pornography. Who can see it... where is can be seen... what kind can be viewed/recorded. Doesnt matter how many want to view it. If they dont show up at the polls, its winner take all.




GotSteel -> RE: The Bigot`s Case Against Homosexuality (12/13/2012 3:54:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Hmmm.... taking that one step further.... if all three were equally as repugnant,, and one is going by the way side and becoming more acceptable... then when will the other two become accepted?



There's been a shift in the way a significant number of American's determine what is moral. Instead of viewing morality as things which are pleasing to a mythological dictator a lot of people are thinking of it in terms of what is beneficial and harmful to humans. As such homosexuality isn't harmful ergo it isn't evil. Murder is harmful so it's wrong. When will that change? Hopefully it won't, it's not something that will happen under humanism anyway. I suppose if enough people end up with really horrible religious beliefs it could come to be considered legal and moral to kill the infidel.




Aswad -> RE: The Bigot`s Case Against Homosexuality (12/13/2012 4:14:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

In the end, the body of law seems to me to be the codified moral judgement of it's community.


The body of law in many places is largely unrelated to the morality of its community, and I personally prefer it that way.

Heck, in many places, the body of law contradicts the morality of its community, outright.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: The Bigot`s Case Against Homosexuality (12/13/2012 4:37:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69

You cannot choose to be gay. Or straight. Or anything in between.


That's not what he said, either.

You can't choose whether to be gay, whether to be horny, whether to be angry, etc.
You can choose whether to sodomize, whether to fuck, whether to kill, etc.

Of course, only one of those actually harm someone.

Scali is wrong, but in a different area than he's taking flak for.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




PeonForHer -> RE: The Bigot`s Case Against Homosexuality (12/13/2012 5:30:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad


The body of law in many places is largely unrelated to the morality of its community, and I personally prefer it that way.

— Aswad.


Yep. Me, I dislike the morality, based on convention - as I see it, rather than 'culture' - that says "everyone does it, so it's ipso facto OK that I do it" that most motorists here in the UK seem to adhere to when they routinely break 30 mph speed limits.

When I see homosexual activity slipped alongside paedophilia (for instance) with any hint of 'they're both equally disgusting to most people', therefore they should be prohibited to the same extent by law - I always think, 'What about one's parents having sex?' I've always found that much more repellant than homosexuals having sex.

An upright community would never allow one's parents to have sex. Let's face it, it's loathsome. Who on this thread would disagree?




slvemike4u -> RE: The Bigot`s Case Against Homosexuality (12/13/2012 10:16:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


As I'm getting older, I'm feeling behind the times, but looking at Scalia I know that I'm at least way ahead of him. To uphold the marriage law, the justices will have to identify a compelling government interest to exclude gays from the institution.

And tha will be impossible...because there is no compelling government interest.
But that is only the one case,the DOMA case...which does look like a slam dunk,it is ,on it's face un-constitutional.
The case that hangs in the balance,and might have reached the court too soon(if you are of the opinion that it should be struck down) is the Prop 8 case: does a state,by dint of popular vote have a right to discriminate against gay marriage .




cloudboy -> RE: The Bigot`s Case Against Homosexuality (12/13/2012 10:37:12 AM)

quote:

But this kind of thing challenges my hopes.


Progress doesn't happen overnight. Look at what happened in the South after Brown v. Board of Education. You had the James Merideth fiasco, the little rock nine, etc. The funniest thing about bigots is how they think they're being objective. What we do see in the USA is how time passes them by.

I substitute taught an AP social studies class at a H.S. some 15 years ago, and I argued to the class the ejusdem generis argument against extending gays marriage rights. I said, "its a slippery slope to justify polygamy, bestiality, and other unseemly acts." No one bought that line of reasoning.

Scalia harkens from another era and takes pride it. History is set to pass him by, if not now, in the next 20 years for sure.

Here is the argument in support of Proposition 8. It's not very persuasive.




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