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RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 12:26:02 PM   
SeekingTrinity


Posts: 1834
Joined: 5/29/2012
From: The 'burbs of Portland, OR
Status: offline 		So OP, because a person elects to identify as kinky in an otherwise vanilla world...does this mean that they are immune to rules, etiquette, and a certain standard by which people should be treated? A leader in the business world may not have as many constraints placed on them as a manager does, but they are not immune to rules or frameworks of structure either.

What Im failing to understand is who necessarily died and made you King of Behavior? Im not being snarky, though its probably coming out that way. Its honestly a legit question. Dont like how you see someone being treated by others? Thats cool, I can understand that. But what Im not understanding is what gives you the right to dictate the way others should be just to...I dont know...suit your ideas of what is right or wrong? Couldnt you take your own advice as well? Shouldnt you take your own advice?

The way I see it, if someone comes in here acting like a complete and total ass...it colors the way I will likely respond to what they are saying. If someone poses something thoughtful, I will likely give a thoughtful response in return.

Does relying on or enforcing a set of rules negate true submission? I dont know, what the hell dictates what true submission is? Is that your concept of true submission? Is this some mythical unicorn that we are all striving to find?

Im like Michael, I personally love rules. Makes the job of figuring out where the boundaries lie so I can cross them all the more interesting :)

< Message edited by SeekingTrinity -- 12/13/2012 12:28:35 PM >

(in reply to ChrisKNJ)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 12:42:35 PM   
ChrisKNJ


Posts: 10
Joined: 4/18/2007
Status: offline 		Wow, you step away for 1 second and ...

Ok, so my thoughts may not have translated well to the forum. When I refer to rules, I'm not referring to web site rules or rules of the road. I'm referring more to "rules" I've seen some people construct around how to act and behave as either a Dom or a sub.

For example, I have seen that some insist on the use of a safe word. This can be a valuable tool that provides a safety net. But it also gives the sub a tool to control what's going on. In the end, I would expect a better approach would be to fill that gap with the right relationship between D/s. In other words, if you know your partner, you know where the lines are drawn and when it's been crossed.

Then again, it's kind of like rock climbing without a rope. I always thought (and still do) people that do this are idiots. You get the same thrill from climbing even though you know you can't die because of the safety rope.

My only intention here was to try to generate some discussion about an idea I had in my head today. And by the way, the moderator that moved this was quite professional in their response.

Soooooo, happy Thursday...

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 12:53:25 PM   
ChrisKNJ


Posts: 10
Joined: 4/18/2007
Status: offline 		I am certainly not the King of Behavior.

I don't think Leaders are immune to rules. But I do think they take calculated risks at bending some rules. These risks introduce steps up in innovation and movement. They also represent uncertainty and sometimes fear in subs.

I might be getting way to close to a Colorado state of mind here so I'll dial it down a bit into reality.

Some of the users in their profiles and journals go an very angry rants on how somebody approached them or spoke to them in an e-mail, etc. It amuses me to see a disproportionate amount of anger in their response. If I send a picture of my "junk" to you with a one-liner; that might not be your thing and you should blow me off. But to waste your time caught up journaling about it...

I haven't sent a picture of my junk to anybody by the way. Saving that one for my next post. :)

(in reply to ChrisKNJ)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 1:08:04 PM   
Inghammar


Posts: 145
Joined: 11/25/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisKNJ

I am certainly not the King of Behavior.

I don't think Leaders are immune to rules. But I do think they take calculated risks at bending some rules. These risks introduce steps up in innovation and movement. They also represent uncertainty and sometimes fear in subs.

I might be getting way to close to a Colorado state of mind here so I'll dial it down a bit into reality.

Some of the users in their profiles and journals go an very angry rants on how somebody approached them or spoke to them in an e-mail, etc. It amuses me to see a disproportionate amount of anger in their response. If I send a picture of my "junk" to you with a one-liner; that might not be your thing and you should blow me off. But to waste your time caught up journaling about it...

I haven't sent a picture of my junk to anybody by the way. Saving that one for my next post. :)


You're sort of all over the map here. Now I think you're talking about the rules that submissive put in their profiles about contact. Female submissives get pounded with emails every day here by libidinous men who are just flinging a handful of spaghetti at a wall and hoping something sticks. In their mind they believe that a submissive should do whatever the person who identifies as a dominant tells them to do just by dint of his self-proclaimed status without any type of agreement.

Until there is an agreement - conversation needs to be kept respectful. If a dom is so amazing that he thinks he can email a stranger and ask her for nude pictures, bank account numbers etc he is believing his own bluster and is a slave to his own hormones and fantasy.

So the 'rules' to which you are now referring are there because I believe submissives get burned out from the volume of one liners and pictures of tumescent male sexual apparatuses and sometimes a profile can reflect this.

< Message edited by Inghammar -- 12/13/2012 1:09:33 PM >

(in reply to ChrisKNJ)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 1:08:52 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		So then I go back to my first response.... what makes you think any actually dominant personality has much interest in "the rules"? Myself and a lot of other dominants on this forum have a lot of fun laughing at the rules. There are photos of me in panties here for that reason. I kneel to Carol sometimes. To me, kneeling is a gesture of respect not submission and I respect the hell out of Carol. So at odd times I just kneel in front of her and blather on about some random love thing. I personally made up the joke, "I'm not submissive enough to be dominant. There's no way I could follow all those rules." So I agree with you. I suspect pretty much every other dominant on these boards agrees with you.

Insofar as a safe word Carol has one. Assuming she's able to form the thought and desire she can simply hand the collar back -- no harm, no foul. That, again, is a matter of something I control or not. Reality is like that. Where the safety net is removed for us, is that she allows me deep enough entree into her mind that I directly control whether she could even form that thought (again without positing bizarro changes to our personalities). As I often say, she gave up the keys to the kingdom to a master manipulator. It's a little late for her to try to lock the door now. Once again, my point here is that I doubt very many of us who are dominant are much interested in "safety nets" unless we perceive some specific need for one with some specific sub.

What I think is that there are a lot of rules and for very good reasons to dictate how casual hookups happen. Those rules pretty much always tend to fall by the wayside when you're discussing long term relationships because actual reality tends to supercede them.

quote:

Then again, it's kind of like rock climbing without a rope. I always thought (and still do) people that do this are idiots. You get the same thrill from climbing even though you know you can't die because of the safety rope.

Wow! An expert on all humanity! I always love it when we get new humanity experts on these boards because they help to clarify all those questions about ourselves that we all have. Here's a bit of info for you. I personally do NOT get the same thrill with & without safety equipment. I seem to have no native fear of heights at all. So if I'm tethered then I'm safe and there's no risk and no adrenaline. It's just physical exercise. Yes, I've been in a free-climbing situation where my life was at immediate peril. There's a valid argument for declaring that "idiotic" but it sure as hell is not the same as tethered TO ME.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to ChrisKNJ)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 1:32:08 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Does relying on and strictly enforcing a set of rules negate true submission? Especially when that “enforcement” is coming from the submissive side.


What I am taking from your posts, minus the leader/manager aspect is the following...

Does setting my own rules of conduct, for myself and for any Dominant who may be interested in me, negate my claim of being submissive?

Lets rule out those who are owned. They agreed, and their owners agreed, so its a moot point with them... the sub has their orders, or permission, from their owner.

So, its not narrowed down to those who are unowned. And I suppose I could see your point.. except for one little detail.

An unowned submissive owns herself. Unless she (I will use she, but that in no way negates the male subs from my post) is taking orders from a dominant, she is in charge of her own life. In charge of staying safe, of being secure, of her life in every aspect. As such, I would expect her to place her own needs and wants above anyone else's as she searches for the one to give up all her trust and submission too.

Trust isnt always easily gained... nor is it easily given. But it is a necessary part of being submissive. So for a sub to set the rules by which they will be treated until such time as they agree to how a particular owner will treat them, to me, is just basic understanding of human psychology.

Did you trust someone just based upon a few exchanges or conversations? Being Dominant isnt some magical term that affords someone instant trust, or instant submission.

Its like assuming a submissive should be submissive to everyone.

Im not an "add-cum-and-stir" kind of slave. Yet many seem to believe the way to get a submissive is to make her squishy wet and eager to suck cock (Ron being the exception to that! hahaha)

And I am sure you can find girls who will submit for that moment... but that doesnt mean they will be submissive in all their dealings with a dominant. Many of us test dominants, we push limits, we explore boundaries, looking for the one that bests match out needs. Dont you do the same?

Very few have earned my respect... even fewer have earned any submissive reactions from me. Even fewer still have earned my complete submission.

For me, and I can only speak for myself, being any other way would negate the submission I do offer to those who are fortunate, or unfortunate, depending on how its viewed.


< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 12/13/2012 1:34:12 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to ChrisKNJ)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 1:55:56 PM   
TieMeInKnottss


Posts: 1944
Joined: 9/6/2012
Status: offline 		Strangely, I don't understand what you are speaking of here, but based on how beautifully written your profile is and what seems to be a deep appreciation of submissives, I think you are trying to pose a philosophical discussion. Since I think you have an honest curiosity and I believe the people here will have many great points, I am quoting some of your profile below.

"Nobody can be forced into submission. A true submissive has far too powerful of a mind for that. You may give pieces away under extreme circumstances, but they are not of any real importance. True submission is having somebody nudge you enough to give away what you already NEED to give away. Pieces start to fall away from you and you give them to another person.

It’s only when you reach this point that you find what’s so deep inside of you that you could never reach it any other way. You knew more was there but didn’t have a way to get a grasp on it.


Reaching this level with somebody you’re connected with is foreign to me. I believe people feel safer in this highly personal moment with a stranger. But again, I’m not a submissive.


It’s only when you reach that point at which you’ve given everything and then gone three steps past that. When you’re mind is raped raw and you can’t think and your body is reduced to it’s elemental animal needs. It’s when you’ve collapsed and your dominant angel is holding you up while you weep uncontrollably because you’ve reached that far down.

It’s that love, that affection, that soft adoration that I offer you when you reach that point. That’s the respect of a dominant person. That is the respect you earn from me through my utter awe at your strength.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 1:59:08 PM   
cordeliasub


Posts: 528
Joined: 11/4/2012
Status: offline
quote:

Trust isnt always easily gained... nor is it easily given. But it is a necessary part of being submissive. So for a sub to set the rules by which they will be treated until such time as they agree to how a particular owner will treat them, to me, is just basic understanding of human psychology.


^^^ This

Trust and communication are two of the essentials in a D/s relationship, IMO. neither of those can be garnered from four messages and a title, so to speak. I try to treat everyone with respect, but as for submission to a person....that is reserved for MY Dominant. That does not mean I get to be a smart ass blankety blank to everyone else, because that just isn't my personality. But yes, I have gotten first messages that said things to the effect of "Sir requires that you skype him at XXXX." Um.....no. I just ignore those messages.

And as far as the specific example of a safe word goes....with my last Sir we evolved to the point that it was not necessary because of time, communication, experience, and trust. But no way would I have given Him carte blanch the first time we ever played....we didn't know each other's nuances yet. That does not mean I am not submissive. That just means I would like to be whole, healthy, and in one piece AFTER a scene so I can finish raising my kids.

The idea of everyone having "their own rules" and not having lines to color inside is really nice.......in a world where there are other people to consider it isn't very practical.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 2:18:31 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		My first dom had rules ..... and he said a true dominant (yes, i said the dread "T" word) can break any rule he wanted to , because he made them.

I'm thinking he coloured outside the lines frequently.

(in reply to cordeliasub)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 2:18:55 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline 		1-AFAIC, the only rules that apply to a dominant relationship are those agreed to by the parties. None other, and they apply to no others. (Some people, leather in particular, who have pretty codified protocols may disagree here, but hey, I'm not leather). In fact, it's the very lack of an organized structure that is one of the big appeals to BDSM for me. I like the ambiguity, I like the creativity, I like the general atmosphere of anarchy.
2-That said, within a bound interaction rules provide a structure and framework within which people operate. In many ways, they could be considered the guardrails on the relationship. They can provide a firm ground to stand on, a sense of identity, create the foundation upon which the relationship is built and operates. The rules help define who and what we are, what our roles are, and what happens when expectations aren't met.
3-Some people operate a whole lot better within an outline of discipline. Some people, and lots and lots of subs, need expectations, discipline, restrictions, strictures, a controlled paradigm in which to function most effectively. And this applies not just within BDSM, but outside of it. I mean, who likes working in a place where the expectations and guides are slippery, always shifting, so that nobody is sure of the ground that they stand on and what is required, when and in what way? I know I don't like it when my boss changes things ex post facto, moves the goalposts on me-I want clearly a laid out path in which to operate. Otherwise, I feel unsure of myself, where I stand, how I'm doing, otherwise I get all flummoxed, and that's not a good way to live.And I'm a freaking dominant for crying out loud, and this is only work. Now imagine how it would feel to be in a relationship where that happened, and not just any relationship, but the most important one in your life?
Yeah, that would suck, big time.
4-And like many others here, I also like to know the boundaries of what I'm operating in, so I can know which rules to bend, which ones to hang ten over the edge of, and which ones to indiscriminately defy flout

< Message edited by Kana -- 12/13/2012 2:19:38 PM >

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to cordeliasub)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 2:33:46 PM   
dominlosangeles


Posts: 16
Joined: 9/4/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisKNJ

One of my observations, after spending some time on this board and others, is that there seems to be a reliance and adherence to a framework of rules and etiquette. ...

Does relying on and strictly enforcing a set of rules negate true submission? Especially when that “enforcement” is coming from the submissive side.



Funny, given that you are against rules, that you use the phrase "true submission." That's just another way of denoting people according to the rules and etiquette you think they should follow.

I don't think there are any rules in BDSM. There are some generally accepted practices and common etiquette, but you'll be able to find lots of people who ignored and disagree with any practice or etiquette.

Do people online jump down other people's throat because they are breaking "the rules." Sure, they do that in every kind of Internet forum on any topic.

As far as your questions about whether rules negate "true submission" -- as long as they setup works for the people involved, it's fine.

(in reply to ChrisKNJ)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 3:03:47 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisKNJ


Does relying on and strictly enforcing a set of rules negate true submission? Especially when that “enforcement” is coming from the submissive side.


I read the thread:

This is an easy one. You don't get two moves in a row in chess, dude. You make your move then the other person gets to make theirs and you have no say over whether they move out a knight or a pawn so make wise moves .. and eventually, you can force the other player into capitulation - capture the Queen, kill the King and stand proud as Board Lord (That's what we use to call #1 seed in chess club.. lol.. yeah, we're geeky.. )

Send out a cock shot and expect the other player to just move on because that's what you 'think' they should do .. some will move out a pawn, some will move out a knight.. because the balls in their court now.

Coloring outside the lines.. well, lines drawn in the sand are easily smudged, not everyone uses crayons, coloring books are very expensive and if I think green, brown and pink are a horrible color combination, that's just opinion and others will probably think my preferences of black and blue are kinda screwed up, too.

Welcome to the boards by the way.

eta: clarification

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 12/13/2012 3:04:08 PM >

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to ChrisKNJ)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 6:04:18 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		A safeword only gives the sub control if the dom views it that way. Or do you really think that you are a perfect mind reader? So if the sub is in a hood and has no noise maker to alert the dom to trouble, the sub could easily die from an asthma attack before you noticed there was a problem.

That's like saying a car is in control of the driver because the seat belts and air bags prevent you from flying through the windshield.

Around here, it's information, it's an extra fail safe system. Because he can't tell when I have a cramp and since I'm gagged, I need a way to indicate that there's a problem before it becomes something that requires a trip to the ER.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 9:44:13 PM   
RemoteUser


Posts: 2854
Joined: 5/10/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisKNJ

Ok, so my thoughts may not have translated well to the forum. When I refer to rules, I'm not referring to web site rules or rules of the road. I'm referring more to "rules" I've seen some people construct around how to act and behave as either a Dom or a sub.


Etiquette and social structure bend and vary by nature, to the point where it can be reduced to two individuals. Perception, translation, expression, sensory input, double entendres, humour, sarcasm, all changes by the person, with no direct bearing on sexuality, fetishism or crass desire.

I'm a wordy guy, and it doesn't affect my ability to perform breath play. (On others, let's be clear about that.) It could, however, be a joyful babbling stream to one ear, and a mountain of blah-blah-blah-stfu to another. Now being wordy is not a denotation of Domitude (the attitude of a dominant personality), but it certainly nails me. My Domitude is impacted more by the target and the environment than my own druthers; whether I think the term 'slut' is hot doesn't change the fact that it's better left said outside of church, and maybe not towards the residing nuns. Why should individual submissives, or vernacular environs like text, imagery, and other remote forms of communication be any different; and that established, how is one code even viable?

In short, you can't construct a code of behaviour by the side of the kneel. These rules of which you speak, they are alien to me, not for lack of respect or couth or knowledge or comprehension, but rather for their patent impossibility. There would be statistical likelihoods of commonalities, but outside of the math, not so much. Not every Dom wants to spank her ass off. Not every submissive wants to be tied up in rose-entwined leather strapping. I might want her to make coffee when you have an allergy, and so forth. What we can do, how we do it, and the snowballing outpouring of cause and effect defines the ultimate result, regardless of calculable, inevitable stereotypes.


_____________________________

There is nothing worse than being right. Instead of being right, then, try to be open. It is more difficult, and more rewarding.


(in reply to ChrisKNJ)
Profile   Post #: 34
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