Breed Specific Laws or Dog bans. (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> Breed Specific Laws or Dog bans. (12/13/2012 9:23:34 AM)

I chose politics for this topic because in essence it is a political issue in the United States, as well as a personal one for many people.

The problem is aggressive and dangerous dogs, actually specific breeds, such as the pit bull. But you would be surprised by what dog breeds are listed as dangerous.

List of most dangerous dog breeds

Before making a comment on the pros or cons of these laws, look at the list.

650 Cities in the US have Breed Specific Laws, the majority aimed at Pit Bulls. I will even agree that the majority of dog attacks are by Pit bulls or Pit bull mixed breed dogs. So yes, there is some cause for concern, however, I must point out that most dog attacks, pit bulls included are by poorly trained or mistreated dogs, I say most not all. In my research I have found a number of attacks by pits and other breeds on family members, children and infants, the so called familiar attacks.
There is no known cure for canine aggression, according to Pet Md, however according to Cesar Millan there is a way to eliminate aggression in dogs, so there is a conflict of opinions in this area. According to Pet MD, there is only treatment for the problem.

Having been raised around dogs all my life, including pit bulls, German Shepherds and collies, I never experienced aggression towards my family or myself by any of my dogs except one, which started after he was attacked by another dog through a fence. That dog was a Pit Lab mix. He also became aggressive towards the other dogs in the household.

I know that most dogs in a household were there is no clear set person who is "dominant" or leader dogs exhibit more aggressive tendencies. I also know that dogs will get aggressive toward children when the children are allowed to pull on ears, tails or hit the dog repeatedly.

Known causes of canine aggression towards people and other dogs are:
1) Abuse
2) Malnutrition (aggression around the food dish)
3) Medical procedures
4) Chronic pain
5) inconsistent or harsh punishment by owner
6) Being the victim of a attack by another dog.
7) Attempt by the dog to assert dominance in multi dog environments and even over the owners.

There have also been canine experts that have spoken in defense of some of the more known dangerous breeds pointing out that there are ways to prevent canine aggression in any breed.

Another problem that is the cause of BSL's in the United States is the illegal sport of dog fighting. Regardless of how soon the animals are rescued from this type of situation, there is no way to stop them from being aggressive, and in almost all cases, the dogs have to be put down.

I have many reasons for this topic. And all boil down to breeding, care, and owner responsibility.

Puppy Farms

The problem with these operations is that the dogs whether mixed or pure bred animals are bred haphazardly. There is no goal of specific traits or qualities, these operations are basically in business to mass produce dogs.

Professional Breeders

While this may not seem to be a problem, the fact is that some breeders breed dogs specifically for aggression. Most of these breeders are suppliers for Law Enforcement or Security, and some people dont care who they sell their pups to.

There is no universal permit or licensing laws for Professional Breeders. Again the majority of breeders are reputable, not all are.

Care.

Some people seem to think that taking care of a dog is either putting them in the yard and feeding and watering them and nothing else, or keeping them in the house and let them out to go to the bathroom and feed and water the animal.

Dogs are social animals. They thrive on interaction with other dogs and people. Playing with a dog is not just to have fun but to allow the dog to burn energy.
There is also a dog's health.

Some breeds have specific breed specific health issues. These range from respiratory to spinal problems, the latter of which can lead to chronic pain and also self defense aggression.

Finally, there is discipline. I have six well behaved dogs, and never have I struck any of them in punishment. I have put them in a kennel, and other techniques but never have I had to use a violent act to discipline my dogs.

Dogs are like children, violence begets violence IMO.

Owner Responsibility.

I think this is the most important point. As I pointed out, some dog owners are neglectful, failing to meet the needs of the dog they own, which results in an insecure and anxious dog, which comes out in the form of aggression.

Owners are responsible for training their dogs, which is why there are countless books on the subject and any number of obedience schools. It is the owner's responsibility to keep his/her dog from jumping on people, or getting overly excited which can lead to aggression.




DomKen -> RE: Breed Specific Laws or Dog bans. (12/13/2012 10:20:33 AM)

Breed specific legislation is truly stupid. The problem is almost always the human component of the dog's life. The dog who attacks people or other dogs is almost always either neglected, not trained and socialized properly, or abused by humans.

Responsible dog owners with dogs that pose no danger to anything should not face stricture due to the incompetence or cruelty of others. The laws should be lengthy prison terms and fines for dog fighters, Michael Vick should be in jail for life, with nearly as lengthy sentences for animal abusers. A dog owner found to be unable/unwilling to train and control his animal should forfeit the animal, no matter whether it is a yorkshire or a pit.




QueenRah -> RE: Breed Specific Laws or Dog bans. (12/13/2012 5:27:34 PM)

Although the pit bull terrier and other, similar, bully breeds are not, in and of themselves, "bad" breeds, ther is an unfortunate abundance of the type of person to own one who is going to turn his dog into a danger through ignorance, abusive training, neglect, general abuse, or a combination of the four. While legislation against these breeds is unfair to the dogs and pet guardians who are knowledgeable and responsible, it is designed to help stem the tidal wave of extreme over-breeding, the catastrophic damage to innocent people and animals and the sunami of unwanted pits dying behind bars, because they are deemed unadoptable.

It would be better to require a certain standard of pet guardian for all domestic "pet" animals: limiting how many animals one may breed, how often and how long one may breed any animal in his or her care, and the number of any one given breed permitted to be born in a given year, in the whole of the United States; the definitions of "basic food, water and shelter" to be broadened beyond the minimal and to include meaningful human contact, as well; and proper behavior and obedience training to be standard for every dog owner. However, due to the arrogant belief that we have a god-given right to do what we will with animals, stricter licensing rules may never, ever become fact. Hence, the draconian measures taken by municipalities to manage these problems.

BTW - Professional breeders are a big part of the problem. Deny it all they will, argue that they breed to "improve" a breed and maintain its viability, they are doing it for money. Once they've sold that litter of well-bred puppies - and in breeds like the pit bull, it's a larger litter, therefore very lucrative - many don't give a tinker's damn for what happens to them. They don't care that their beautiful, desirable puppies have become neglected, unwanted dogs that die in kill shelters.




DarkSteven -> RE: Breed Specific Laws or Dog bans. (12/13/2012 7:43:52 PM)

I agree with QueenRah. A lot of people who have vicious pit bulls do so because they're "bad". If pits were outlawed, they'd do the very same thing with Rottweilers, etc. It's a vogue thing.




TheHeretic -> RE: Breed Specific Laws or Dog bans. (12/13/2012 9:57:37 PM)

The first two on the linked list are the first two on my list, JLF. When I encounter dogs running loose, I don't trust pits or chows. I have, however, put a strange rottweiler and boxer in the back seat of my car, and driven them on up to the county shelter.

I've recently been asked to care for the pit of a military family, while they are both deployed, and my list of questions before I agree is a lot longer than it would be for a retriever or spaniel, or even a nasty tempered chihuahua. I'm not much worried about the dog attacking the humans in the house, but we have dogs and cats that coexist just fine, and even snuggle a little (the older female cat is the alpha), and I'm not going to put them at risk. My animals are also boundary smart, and my back fence is not secure against a determined canine effort to get through. I won't turn my back on a stray pit, and I certainly don't wish to inflict one on my neighbors. Nor do I want to have to keep the dog confined to the small pen for two months.

Every dog is an individual. How a dog is raised and trained is critical. Breed characteristics remain. Pits are extremely powerful terriers. That can be a be a bad combination to start with.




jlf1961 -> RE: Breed Specific Laws or Dog bans. (12/13/2012 10:45:33 PM)

Heretic, you and I have butted heads in the past, but strangely we have been in agreement on some topics of late.

I agree with you about being leery around a stray or strange pit bull. There are a couple of other breeds I am leery of, but I can honestly say the only time I have ever been bit by a dog was by one of my own that had tangled with a porcupine and I was helping to hold him while the vet was trying to give him a sedative before attempting to remove the quills.

In all honesty, I have been bitten more times by horses than dogs. Which probably says a lot about the temperament of the horses I have owned.

I agree with you about Pits. With the exception of the one that turned aggressive after being attacked by another dog through a fence, all of the pits I have owned were, more or less, rather large, intelligent clowns. Even the one that turned aggressive was a clown for his first three years.

Pit bulls were at one time in history used for guard dogs for noble born children. Form the research I have been able to do to verify this claim, the major problem was that the bond between dog and child often resulted in aggression against parents when child was punished. I have to admit, that I have yet been able to find sources for these claims.

Mastiffs were war dogs, bred for combat and that stayed the dominant trait for most of the history of the breed. Mastiffs are also very loyal to their masters.

But back to the pit bull.

There are some, not as many as I would like, breeders of pit bulls that are breeding for the even tempered trait that has become dominant in some blood lines. The trait is so pronounced that the dogs could almost be considered passive and I have even heard the term submissive used. I am of the opinion that the aggressiveness of the breed can not be totally bred out without damaging the breed, but then I am not an expert.

I am also of the opinion that most pit bull owners work to bring out the aggressiveness in their pits for some warped power trip. I would classify most of these people as "white trash" or the cliche red neck.

People that admire the other traits of the breed seem to be satisfied with a well trained, well mannered, well socialized dog that can be trusted around anyone.

I also feel that as long as the "sport" of dog fighting is tolerated by some fraction of the human population, aggressiveness in dogs is going to stay with us. And of course those people that want a 'bad" dog are not helping the problem.




TheHeretic -> RE: Breed Specific Laws or Dog bans. (12/13/2012 11:07:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

And of course those people that want a 'bad" dog are not helping the problem.



Yes, but...

I love dogs for all sorts of reasons, and one of those reasons is they are damned good home security. If someone comes knocking at my door, or peering in the windows, I want them to see teeth and hear snarl. When I still had my hybrid, and lived out in the country, someone gave me a sign for the fence that showed the view down the barrel of a big revolver, and said, "never mind the dog, beware of owner." It was hilarious, because nobody was ever going to, "never mind," the hackles and fangs, and the growl from the bottom of his chest that dog greeted strangers with. He never bit anyone, that I'm aware of (I did find him playing with unfamiliar shoes a few times, when we lived in the hood), but he told more than a couple people to stand very very still, and they all did.

If I make into a country place again, or should have fate put me back living in the ghetto, I'm going to want a dog that scares the shit out of anyone who might look at my place as a target. Being, "bad," is an important part of a watchdog's job.




jlf1961 -> RE: Breed Specific Laws or Dog bans. (12/13/2012 11:22:04 PM)

There are those people who want a "bad" dog for security, which is allowed, given the state of human civilization. But then I can honestly say that, as a whole, I find that the human race has few redeeming qualities, while on the individual level, there are many people who actually give me faith that the race will improve, someday.

But those that want a "bad" dog for no other reason than to have a dog that is dangerous to prove some perceived point about themselves is not the same thing.

I mean, can you honestly say there is a benefit to having an animal that has to be chained or caged all the time because otherwise the animal may attack you, your family or a neighbor?

I have seen guard dogs and police dogs that under normal circumstances are not overly aggressive. I have also seen those same dogs rip the hell out of someone who broke into a house, or in the case of the K9 dog, tear a would be rapist up so bad that I sincerely doubt will have the ability to attack a woman without the image of a dog latched onto his arm and other available body parts that presented themselves. I think that is called negative reinforcement.




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