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RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation - 12/17/2012 5:36:01 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mons

I am so, ...............I can not find the word!!! I worked at an elementary school for twenty years!

I can not begin to tell anyone how this has made me feel such pain!

mons

It is impossible to look at the photos of those 20 children without great sorrow and rage.

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RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation - 12/17/2012 5:43:17 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

The Aurora batman, well...you could probably enlighten me.

James Holmes. He entered a theatre at the midnight premier of The Dark Knight Rises (?) and killed/wounded many.

quote:

Saying there is probably no life after death is not nihilistic, it is being rational on the current evidence since no one has come back and told us they're having a wail of a time post life.

Oh, I quite agree with you on that. Nevertheless, we still construct our own meaningfulness even if in the end we were delusional.

quote:

I would be more likely to believe a diagnosis of mental illness before an event than after an event. Psychiatrists are similar to economist, they have 20-20 vision with hindsight but are almost blind when it comes to foresight.

Yates and Holmes each had seen a psychiatrist before their crimes.


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RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation - 12/17/2012 5:46:50 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Then I suspect you have never been a parent. Being a parent teaches you that lack of good nurturing and extreme abuse creates major dysfunction in the emerging personality. And, if you are paying attention, it also teaches you that your children are born who they are, and though environment and great parenting can shape them to a certain extent, people appear to be born with various personality traits.

I agree, CP. But many have trouble accepting this deterministic view.

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RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation - 12/17/2012 5:49:04 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Yates and Holmes each had seen a psychiatrist before their crimes.




That sort of tells us how effective psychiatry is.


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RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation - 12/17/2012 5:54:47 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		I have two children, one of each gender born 2.5 years apart. During their entire upbringing, they both lived in the same household, with the same parents, and went to the same school until high school.

In other words, environment and level of nurture was consistently the same for both children. Yet they are so different as people, if I personally didn't know better I'd think they were raised in different households by different parents.

Previous to having children, I seriously bought into the 'it's all about nurture' theory. I know better now.

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RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation - 12/17/2012 6:02:53 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Many, perhaps including you, believe we can construct our own meaningfulness for the short time we are here.


It seems the guy in Connecticut did just that, which illustrates the limitations of constructing meaningfulness per se.

Similarly, Breivik had an altruistic form of meaningfulness that wasn't exactly very palatable, either.

One sadly can't differentiate these from the "good" ones in any objective sense.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation - 12/17/2012 6:03:30 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

the human condition. The knowledge that life is ultimately futile and pointless and we all die regardless of what we do in life. We will all suffer the same fate ie. ultimately we are nothing, our lives will be extiguished and nothing, zilch, the universe has ceased to be because we have ceased to be.

It seems to me that what you're claiming we "know" is something that precisely no one knows.

K.

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RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation - 12/17/2012 6:35:12 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
The knowledge that life is ultimately futile and pointless and we all die regardless of what we do in life.

Aw, Meatcleaver feels unloved! Well, it is alleged that Jesus lovs everyone, so let that be your solace and let him - even if you view him as fuctional - be your savior. (What have you got to loose - except your stubbornness?)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
We will all suffer the same fate ie. ultimately we are nothing, our lives will be extiguished and nothing, zilch, the universe has ceased to be because we have ceased to be.

Even the pagan gods died - and lived again. But both they and we leave our tracks as we interact with the universe and with the Divine. One synaps firing in my brain will affect another, alien being at another planet sixty thousand lightyears from me sixty thousand years from now. And that is just the ordinary physics. There likely is also such a thing as instantaneous communication in which our every thought and act is communicated instantaneously to the whole universe and all times - as it is to the Divine 'outside' our universe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Though I would question whether mass killers are mentally depressed or are suffering any mental illness

There is the case of the spree killer up in some tower in the USA who had brain cancer. And it is known that being on mind altering medication or subsequently being deprived of such medication can cause people to murder.

In my opinion, though, the common denominator in most cases of murder will be that the murderer lacks a conscience.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation - 12/17/2012 6:45:25 AM   
jlf1961


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Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Minority Report with Tom Cruise seemed to show that it is possible to prevent a crime before it happens. If you are a psychic, but then, I dont believe in Psychics.

How about this:

1) if you use a gun in the commission of a crime where there are no injuries, life sentence no plea bargain.
2) If you use a gun in the commission of a crime and there are injuries or death, death sentence no plea bargains.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation - 12/17/2012 6:58:46 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


It seems to me that what you're claiming we "know" is something that precisely no one knows.




Well, you are free to invoke your divine and supraphysical to point out it is impossible to know and I can invoke the furry pink elephant god to say the opposite.

But let me quote myself Saying there is probably no life after death is not nihilistic, it is being rational on the current evidence since no one has come back and told us they're having a wail of a time post life.

Still, I don't mind upsetting the god club too much. If people really believed in god and life after death in his glory, they'd be jumping offf a cliff to join him or like muslim fanatics, blowing themselves up to join the glorious god.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation - 12/17/2012 7:03:55 AM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Meatcleaver,

We are discussing Retribution and Rehabilitation.

Not the belief of lack of belief in an afterlife.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation - 12/17/2012 7:09:03 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Aw, Meatcleaver feels unloved! Well, it is alleged that Jesus lovs everyone, so let that be your solace and let him - even if you view him as fuctional - be your savior. (What have you got to loose - except your stubbornness?)



I don't feel unloved at all. You are just projecting your own beliefs on me. As for Jesus, he is of only historical interest and what we know about him is so filtered through other people's beliefs and self interest, he is largely irrelevant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Even the pagan gods died - and lived again. But both they and we leave our tracks as we interact with the universe and with the Divine. One synaps firing in my brain will affect another, alien being at another planet sixty thousand lightyears from me sixty thousand years from now. And that is just the ordinary physics. There likely is also such a thing as instantaneous communication in which our every thought and act is communicated instantaneously to the whole universe and all times - as it is to the Divine 'outside' our universe.


God don't die do they? Not that I believe any exist. If god existed there would have to have been a god who created god. If god just existed, then anything can exist without god.

It appears the Anglo-Saxons made offerings to the gods to keep them out of their lives because they were maleovant and as for life after death, one of the few writings the christians didn't destroy in their zealotry, a king says 'Life is like a bird that flew into the beer hall from the night, circled the fire and returned to the night. The Anglo-saxons believed all a man had was his good name and that is all he was after his death.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

In my opinion, though, the common denominator in most cases of murder will be that the murderer lacks a conscience.



You are free to believe what you want but it is just a belief.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation - 12/17/2012 7:09:58 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

In my opinion, though, the common denominator in most cases of murder will be that the murderer lacks a conscience.


I think the factor you want to be looking at is impulse control, not conscience.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation - 12/17/2012 7:11:35 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
1) if you use a gun in the commission of a crime where there are no injuries, life sentence no plea bargain.
2) If you use a gun in the commission of a crime and there are injuries or death, death sentence no plea bargains.

Those are rather simplistic solutions. Though I admit that in a primitive society simplistic solutions often are good solutions.

I would rather leave the decision about what to do up to a qualified judge. According to Aswad Norway has a very effective rehabilitation program.

Myself I am more interested in the gene pool aspect of the issue. To have or not to have a conscience is genetically determined. (I am not rücksichtloss opposed to people having no conscience, but in my opinion it is preferable that most people do have a conscience.)

And since having a conscience is determined by the alleles, the solution ought to be sought in reducing the reproductive success of the criminals and their immediate male relatives.

So yes: guilty by being related to a criminal. Prohibit the access of the criminal to females by ten years, and also prohibit the access of his sons and brothers and father to females for say half of that time.


< Message edited by Rule -- 12/17/2012 7:12:30 AM >

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to jlf1961)
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RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation - 12/17/2012 7:13:13 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

If people really believed in god and life after death in his glory, they'd be jumping offf a cliff to join him or like muslim fanatics, blowing themselves up to join the glorious god.


Uhm, if people believed that's what they should do, perhaps. I'm assuming you're talking about the Abrahamic traditions, of which a few speak of an afterlife, but where all seem to consider suicide to be murder, and mass murder to be at the very least murder, and murder to be an affront at best and an abomination at worst.

How you get from "X says: don't do Y" to "people who listen to X should do Y" is beyond me.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation - 12/17/2012 7:13:34 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Meatcleaver,

We are discussing Retribution and Rehabilitation.

Not the belief of lack of belief in an afterlife.


When someone has commited a masacre, if they are still alive and are arrested, they are never going to be let out of prison again so rehabilitation is not even on the cards. Now if you are talking about redemption....

or are you talking about retribution as in execution or retribution as in torture/

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation - 12/17/2012 7:15:27 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
If people really believed in god and life after death in his glory, they'd be jumping offf a cliff to join him or like muslim fanatics, blowing themselves up to join the glorious god.

I assure all religious nuts that them guys in Heaven would rather not associate with crazy people and that they would appreciate it if the religious nuts found themselves another abode next door.


< Message edited by Rule -- 12/17/2012 7:28:20 AM >

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation - 12/17/2012 7:16:04 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

If people really believed in god and life after death in his glory, they'd be jumping offf a cliff to join him or like muslim fanatics, blowing themselves up to join the glorious god.


Uhm, if people believed that's what they should do, perhaps. I'm assuming you're talking about the Abrahamic traditions, of which a few speak of an afterlife, but where all seem to consider suicide to be murder, and mass murder to be at the very least murder, and murder to be an affront at best and an abomination at worst.

How you get from "X says: don't do Y" to "people who listen to X should do Y" is beyond me.



God said nothing, he talks through people who invented god and who believe in god. Since everything god saiud is a human fiction, any other human can create a new fiction.


_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation - 12/17/2012 7:22:56 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

According to Aswad Norway has a very effective rehabilitation program.


We do indeed. About one in ten recidivism rates.

quote:

To have or not to have a conscience is genetically determined.


This is too simple.

Impulse control is the closest correlate to conscience as an effective moderator of behavior, and it is a combination of genetics, epigenetics, nutrition, environment, parenting, education and other factors. Although each of these factors is a substantial one, the benefits of genetic diversity make that one of the least attractive routes to get at the problem. Self insight and impulse control may be the two most important things to aim for, with conscience and empathy further down the list, if we're talking functional society.

Also, it depends a lot on the moral paradigm in use, as there's a huge difference between what traits are required in each paradigm.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation - 12/17/2012 7:23:52 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		Meatcleaver, not everyone is experiencing the same extremely poor quality of life that you are. Some of us manage to find joy in life. If you know how to look, you can find a great deal of joy.

I'm not rich, I don't drive a new car or have a fabulous house. I get to wash dishes and scrub the toilets same as most people. I have super toxic family, a barely adequate retirement plan, and not the world's best health. And yet I manage to find joy in my life every single day.

I personally have more than one blissful relationship in which I daily get to practice kindness, patience, and compassion (and other traits I enjoy developing). This brings me much joy.

I have work I love that brings me great fulfillment, if not great financial success.

Find joy and follow your bliss. To do anything less with your life is a sacrilege to those gods you don't believe in.


_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 100
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