RE: Lets make a deal (Full Version)

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freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 6:56:43 AM)

Jeff,

What if I modified your idea of who should give up what in exchange for giving up guns...

What if I were to propose something similar except that I am a Pagan and a pro-abortionist (and pro-gay marriage incidentally)?
So you would have to change your religion and become a Pagan and also support abortion and gay marriage.

Would you still feel the same??
I very much doubt it.

You would want everyone to have the catholic standpoint and I am sure than many, including myself, would not agree with that.
In your proposal, your so-called "sacrifice" serves your beliefs and ignores the majority of others.
Your proposition only follows your agenda and dogma to the detriment of others where you are affected favourably.

From Wiki -
The largest religion in the US is Christianity, practiced by the majority of the population (76% in 2008).
From those queried, roughly 51.3% of Americans are Protestants, 23.9% are Catholics, 1.7% are Mormons (the name commonly used to refer to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), and 1.7% have affiliations with various other Christian denominations.


By that reconing, you would condemn 76.1% of the population to follow a religion that they don't agree with or subscribe to.
And there are many that not anti-abortion - which the catholic faith adheres to vehemently.


I'm sorry.
Volunteering to give up something in exchange for forcing others to give up rights that affect more than 76% of the population, but not you, is something that a selfish dictator would do in the name of "fairness" - which we all know is only fair for you and similar like-minded people.






freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 6:59:12 AM)

And surely, if everyone is giving up that same right, isn't that in itself a fair deal??

It wouldn't be selective - it would be for everyone.


So there's no need to go on about removing other rights as a "compensation" for losing your toys.


Its like when cars were first available.
Anyone could have one.
Henry Ford also said you can any colour black you like. lol.

But when the states started charging car owners for their plates yearly, wasn't that unfair and unjust?
Then came the compulsory insurance.
Did they demand that others should lose other rights and freedoms to justify the extra (and unjust) expenses for owning a car?
And what about California and their recent emissions laws so that gas-guzzling muscle cars are effectively outlawed??
Did they demand other rights be removed as "compensation" for losing their right to drive a muscle car on Californian roads?
No, they didn't.

The laws changed to fit what the state and government wanted.
It was a case of shape up or ship out.

The same can be done with the gun laws if the majority of the populace wants it and is backed by the government of the day.
There would be no compensatory loss of other rights.
It would be a simple case of give them up or go to jail.




LizDeluxe -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 11:36:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
I don't think it's reasonable to remove a completely unrelated freedom to fit only his version of what should be in his eyes and other like-minded people.

It's fine if you are a catholic and an anti-abortionist.

If your beliefs are different than his then what he is proposing is just selfish and completely unrelated to giving up guns for the good of the country as a whole.

He is demanding a tit-for-tat exchange for his own beliefs which would be unfair to anyone not following the same path that he is.

So in that sense, it is not a reasonable compromise at all.


He didn't demand a thing. He made an offer. You dismissed it forthright because is doesn't fit your narrow personal vision. My beliefs are different than yours but apparently that's unreasonable because you (like Mike) know what's best for this country and anyone who disagrees with you does not.




LizDeluxe -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 11:38:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
And surely, if everyone is giving up that same right, isn't that in itself a fair deal??


So everyone gives up guns and everyone gives up abortion. Why is that unfair? It applies to everyone equally. I realize it is far more easier to dictate your own personal beliefs on everyone else but that doesn't often result in much societal change.

For the record, I want to see abortion remain legal. Illegal abortion was far worse than legal abortion. The point is that the man made an offer to open a discussion. You and others here just blew him off because you do not wish to negotiate. Play the "my way or the highway" game all you want. That's what the gun control crowd has been doing for years and that's why the issue remains. There are plenty of gun owners who are willing to work with you and your cohorts. The problem is none of you want to work with us. You want to dictate to us. And we'll keep citing the 2nd Amendment until you all collectively get off your high horses and get serious about having a meaningful discussion.






jlf1961 -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 12:29:12 PM)

Alright, so you have a problem with my first offer.

I will change it.

First in reference to the first amendment:

Lets go from
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


To
Congress shall make no law religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Now since it seems that some of you think it is just me that want abortion banned, please by all means google anti abortion groups. There is a large population in the United States (though not a majority) that want abortions banned, the I am referring to the Christian right.

There about as many people on the left that want guns banned, although, like Mike, there are a smaller number of people that want a limit on the types of guns
allowed for private ownership.

So back to abortion, an amendment banning elective abortions that are not the result of rape, incest or threaten the life of the mother if she carries it to full term. Now some abortions will remain legal.

Now to continue, we also add an amendment to the constitution that requires any person elected to office, be it state or federal pass a test on moral beliefs and ethical character. Also in this amendment, restrictions to who besides private individuals can donate to his election campaigns, business entities are no longer allowed to donate money in an election, the only organizations allowed to donate to elections are religious organizations as represented by the religious beliefs of the population of the United States.

Finally, since we got rid of that pesky establishment of religion clause in the first amendment, we make another amendment to the constitution to establish a new branch of government.

Made up of representatives of every religion or denomination found in the united states with no weight given to the size of the religious followers in the religion or denomination.

The purpose of this new branch of government is to establish a moral code for the citizens of the United States based on the religious teachings and writings of the religions represented without approval of congress or the president and immune from decisions by the supreme court.

This branch of government will also establish spiritual courts each with a panel consisting of representatives of the religions sitting on the main board of moral standards.

This court will have the power to imprison or exile violators of the established moral code to federal prison or US territories outside the 50 States.

There, the US is no longer a solely Christian nation, the religious tenets of every religion is represented will be made part of the law of the land.

Prayer will return to the public schools.

Beginning in middle school, classes will be mandatory for the study of all religions found in the United States with the goal of allowing the student to make an educated choice of the religion he/she would follow as an adult.

There that takes care of the moral and spiritual decay as described by the still vocal moral majority.

Now for another problem faced by the United States.

Illegal Immigration.

Congress set a precedent in the early 1900's by order federal troops to patrol the Mexican border. Let's do it again, we are bringing troops back to the states from Iraq and Afghanistan, let us not waste the manpower.

Changes in Criminal Statutes.

Any crime committed using a firearm whether injury or death occurred results in a mandatory life sentence.

Any crime committed in which an injury or death occured due to the use of a firearm will carry a mandatory death sentence.

Rape, Child molestation, incest carries a mandatory death sentence.

Drug dealers, traffickers and those associated with the transportation and distribution of illegal narcotic are no longer classified as criminals, they are terrorists.
Convictions of these crimes carries a mandatory death sentence.

Anyone suspected of being involved in domestic terrorism will be held without bond until the first preliminary hearing, and if found guilty by a court of law the mandatory sentence will be death.

Marijuana will be legalized and taxed according to the same standards for tobacco products and alcohol.

Marijuana cultivation will be governed by an allotment system same as tobacco.

The end product will meet strict quality control standards as set by the FDA.

Now finally, for the people who had this country stolen from them.

All people of native American decent of 25% or higher will receive 1000 acres of land to be allotted from federally owned lands.
Full blooded Native Americans will receive a lump sum cash payment of 10 million dollars, half blood 5 million and 1/4 blood will receive 2.5 million

Indian reservations will be given the status of states and have full representation in the senate and house of representatives.

Those African American who have a proven ancestral link to being held in slavery will receive 5 million dollars in a lump sum payment.

And of course the second amendment goes away.

All of this proposal covers every social and ethnic complaint raise since 1900.





tazzygirl -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 12:30:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
And surely, if everyone is giving up that same right, isn't that in itself a fair deal??


So everyone gives up guns and everyone gives up abortion. Why is that unfair? It applies to everyone equally. I realize it is far more easier to dictate your own personal beliefs on everyone else but that doesn't often result in much societal change.

For the record, I want to see abortion remain legal. Illegal abortion was far worse than legal abortion. The point is that the man made an offer to open a discussion. You and others here just blew him off because you do not wish to negotiate. Play the "my way or the highway" game all you want. That's what the gun control crowd has been doing for years and that's why the issue remains. There are plenty of gun owners who are willing to work with you and your cohorts. The problem is none of you want to work with us. You want to dictate to us. And we'll keep citing the 2nd Amendment until you all collectively get off your high horses and get serious about having a meaningful discussion.





What wasnt serious or meaningful about my discussion?




searching4mysir -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 12:31:02 PM)

quote:

But why abortions? What has that got to do with it?


If we cannot respect and value the most innocent of life, that which is in the womb, how can society be expected to respect and value innocent life outside the womb?




tazzygirl -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 12:31:26 PM)

Speak for yourself. I have no problem respecting life outside of the womb. That "we" in your pocket seems to say you cant.




meatcleaver -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/17/2012 1:27:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

So everyone gives up guns and everyone gives up abortion. Why is that unfair?



Er....one is about a woman being charge of her own body while guns are about people being in charge of someone elses body? Maybe?




meatcleaver -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/17/2012 1:30:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir

If we cannot respect and value the most innocent of life, that which is in the womb, how can society be expected to respect and value innocent life outside the womb?


A fetus that cannot live independently outside the womb is not an independent life and I don'tsee what innocence has to do with it, it is about a woman being able to make a choice about her own body, independent of paternal authority.

Society doesn respect or value life outside the womb. Just think about it.




Lucylastic -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/17/2012 3:24:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
And surely, if everyone is giving up that same right, isn't that in itself a fair deal??


So everyone gives up guns and everyone gives up abortion. Why is that unfair? It applies to everyone equally. I realize it is far more easier to dictate your own personal beliefs on everyone else but that doesn't often result in much societal change.

For the record, I want to see abortion remain legal. Illegal abortion was far worse than legal abortion. The point is that the man made an offer to open a discussion. You and others here just blew him off because you do not wish to negotiate. Play the "my way or the highway" game all you want. That's what the gun control crowd has been doing for years and that's why the issue remains. There are plenty of gun owners who are willing to work with you and your cohorts. The problem is none of you want to work with us. You want to dictate to us. And we'll keep citing the 2nd Amendment until you all collectively get off your high horses and get serious about having a meaningful discussion.




Actually no it doesnt.
It only affects half the population
namely women




jlf1961 -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/17/2012 6:23:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
And surely, if everyone is giving up that same right, isn't that in itself a fair deal??


So everyone gives up guns and everyone gives up abortion. Why is that unfair? It applies to everyone equally. I realize it is far more easier to dictate your own personal beliefs on everyone else but that doesn't often result in much societal change.

For the record, I want to see abortion remain legal. Illegal abortion was far worse than legal abortion. The point is that the man made an offer to open a discussion. You and others here just blew him off because you do not wish to negotiate. Play the "my way or the highway" game all you want. That's what the gun control crowd has been doing for years and that's why the issue remains. There are plenty of gun owners who are willing to work with you and your cohorts. The problem is none of you want to work with us. You want to dictate to us. And we'll keep citing the 2nd Amendment until you all collectively get off your high horses and get serious about having a meaningful discussion.




Actually no it doesnt.
It only affects half the population
namely women



Let me explain a couple of things about my choices of what to ban.
Both are polarizing issues in American society.

Abortion:
1) Morally and spiritually, I am opposed to Abortion, except in cases of rape, incest or if the mother's life is in danger due to the pregnancy.
2) However, I do not believe that the state or national government has the authority to regulate what a person does with his or her body, except in the case of illegal drugs. Weird as that might be.
3) I believe in God, and with that belief comes the knowledge that a woman who has an abortion will answer to a higher judge than any human.
4) With the choices of birth control readily available to a woman today, why should abortion be necessary as a form of birth control?
5) 41% of Americans, according to a Gallup poll this year are pro-lfe.
6) As for late term abortions, I am opposed to that and think the government has the right to regulate those.

Gun Control:
1) The majority of Americans are pro gun, according to Gallup
2) Of that group, there are some that agree that stricter controls need to be in place, but there is no consensus as to what form they should take.
3) 57% of Americans in that poll were in favor of a ban on Assault Rifles, but not automatic pistols.

IN my last post, I went all out and addressed every social and criminal concern that has hit the news in the last 30 years.

I am opposed to the government regulating abortions except in the form of late term abortions other than that, the only regulations concerning abortions should be about the cleanliness of the clinic and the licensing of the physician and staff.

Slavemike, for example, is not in favor of a ban, but he is passionate that something needs to be done, and he has been attacked by many, including me for his stand. For my part in that I apologize.

The basic argument on both issues is life. Yes, during the period that abortions can safely be performed, the fetus is not viable.

The title of this thread is "Let's Make a deal," in other words, put out some counter proposals. I went whole hog and extreme. But the responses have been about abortion which is not the issue. In this case the issue is something that has passionate proponents on both sides.




Lucylastic -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/17/2012 6:38:07 AM)

I dont care about your post jeff... you can rant all you like:) my problem is with the person who posted what she did.
Thanks but Ive got enough extreme in my life as it is, which is why I havnt commented on anything else:)




jlf1961 -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/17/2012 7:07:13 AM)

Lucy, the majority of americans are opposed to abortion, for the first time since Roe v. Wade.

In all honesty, I am opposed to the government regulation of abortion, but for moral reasons opposed to abortion, if that makes sense. The woman will have to answer to a higher power than any human, so I leave it at that.

However, with all the birth control choices available, why is abortion even necessary?




Lucylastic -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/17/2012 7:15:28 AM)

With all the birth control available, the unplanned pregnancy rate is still around 50 % of all pregnancies.
Until Birth control.... male or female works, 100% of the time and 100% of consenting adults use it properly... It will never go away. Legally or otherwise.

The majority can oppose it all they want.




tazzygirl -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/17/2012 7:27:04 AM)

How many times have I explained that Lucy?

Why do these people think abortion will "magically" go away if we over turn Roe vs Wade?

How many do you think know that abortion is written into the constitution of a few states.

I deleted the rest, its in your mail, Lucy.




Lucylastic -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/17/2012 8:02:24 AM)

they accuse us of being idealogues
HAH





freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/17/2012 8:03:42 AM)

Jeff, the problem I have with your "compromise" is the fact that the two proponents are completely and utterly unrelated.

One deals with guns - available to all, regardless of sex.

The other, only affects females and has nothing whatsoever to do with guns.
The other problem with this is that some states have already outlawed abortion whilst others haven't.

Whilst both subjects are probably equally polarising, they bear no resemblance to each other and are therefore the equivalent of camparing apples with oranges with bananas - completely irrelevant.


And equally, why should the changing of one law have any direct impact on any other unrelated law??

If you were forced to hand in your semi and auto weapons and non-standard mags because a new law comes into force, are you going to resist it because you are demanding that someone else give up some other rights that don't affect you personally??
Personally, I see that as a very selfish attitude.
What immediately sprang to mind was "spoilt brat" with the 'if I can't have my toys then someone else has to give up theirs'.
Can you not see that your toys can create havoc and innocent deaths and others' toys don't??

I just don't see the need for a tit-for-tat 'exchange' in any way.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/17/2012 8:14:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
And surely, if everyone is giving up that same right, isn't that in itself a fair deal??


So everyone gives up guns and everyone gives up abortion. Why is that unfair? It applies to everyone equally. I realize it is far more easier to dictate your own personal beliefs on everyone else but that doesn't often result in much societal change.


Why should one have any relevance or impact with the other??

They are completely unrelated subjects and it has nothing to do with my personal beliefs.
However, what jeff is proposing just happens to fit neatly into his own agenda but not for 76.1% of the rest of the population. If that isn't dictating your own beliefs then I don't know any more.
Pot, kettle and black come to mind here.



Why not go the whole hog and just tear up the constitution?
I'm sure there are enough differences of opinion that would ask for other different rights to be given up in 'exchange' for guns.
Instead of abortion (which only affects females), lets abolish the car... That kills far more people than any other singular element and by banning them we would have a cleaner atmosphere to live in.

The whole concept of a tit-for-tat exchange just doesn't fit the problem.
Guns are the issue here, not abortions.
So why should the banning of one be linked to the banning of the other - except that it suits jeff and similar followers.

It just doesn't make any sense at all.
There isn't any need whatsoever to 'make a deal' at all.




slvemike4u -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/17/2012 9:04:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I dont care about your post jeff... you can rant all you like:) my problem is with the person who posted what she did.
Thanks but Ive got enough extreme in my life as it is, which is why I havnt commented on anything else:)

I am amazed at the inclination to mentally masturbate ,to suggest ridiculous trade-offs,to deflect in the face of such a tragedy.
I find it hard to believe that intelligent folks would engage in such silliness at such a time




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