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RE: Is BDSM a religious act? - 6/18/2006 4:04:11 PM

meatcleaver

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Ritual, flagellation and servitude do not add up to a religion. Many people, particularly women seem to equate D/s with spirituality but without defining spirituality one can't seriously discuss it, as it is such a woolly word and can mean all things to all people. Myself, I don't see anything spiritual in any aspect of BDSM, any notion of spirituality just seems to be an attempt to rationalize ones kink but kink doesn't need to be legitimzed, it is what it is. To incorporate spirituality into BDSM one has to surely be looking for some sort of transcendence and subspace isn't transcendence in my book. I get the impression and I accept I could be wrong but spirituality keeps being brought in BDSM as an attempt to justify it because BDSM contradicts the morals people have been socialized into. Why can't kink just be kink?

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/18/2006 4:05:35 PM >

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 21

RE: Is BDSM a religious act? - 6/18/2006 4:54:44 PM

LadiesBladewing

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Joined: 8/31/2005
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This sounds like one of those areas where we part grounds. Perhaps it is because your focus is BDSM and mine is M/s (which I feel are only most loosly related, in that someone tossed them in the same "this is outside of the normal way of relating" box), or perhaps it is because everything in our lives here is pervaded by our spirituality, but I can't conceive of being able to guide those who serve us without touching the spirit of our servants -- and striving each day to reconnect with the spiritual resources that enable me to lead with honesty and dedication.

I don't feel a need to justify what I do, since I rarely care what anyone thinks about the choices I make. Invoking the "spirituality" of M/s is also not any way to get kudos from the religious powers-that-be and their representatives in our neighborhood, either, since most of them would consider our idea of spirituality to be not only profane, but downright heretical. Being lynched (figuratively for now, but I wouldn't rule out literally completely) because we believe in M/s as a spiritual expression is not exactly what I'd call a rational reason to invoke "spirituality" to justify what it is that we do.

In the way that we practice, we -do- find transcendence. Whether or not it is what -you- are looking for, that doesn't invalidate others' experiences that -do- touch on the transmundane.

ZWD

_____________________________

"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
Bladewing Enclave

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 22

RE: Is BDSM a religious act? - 6/18/2006 5:52:07 PM

iliv2servher

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Joined: 5/17/2006
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I'm not even sure that to equate BDSM with a religion is a correct assumption; or to even equate BDSM with spirituality. However, I do think there is a correlation between spiritual meditation and what we have come to call "dom/domme space" and "sub space."

Also, there can be an element in spiritual love between two (or more) individuals (providing one believes that love for another is a spiritual manifestation).

I happen to think that love is trascendent, and that it elevates us to a higher level of consciousness, and therefore consitutes a spiritual state of mind and body.

< Message edited by iliv2servher -- 6/18/2006 5:54:52 PM >

(in reply to talibahh)

Post #: 23

RE: Is BDSM a religious act? - 6/18/2006 7:00:21 PM

LadyHugs

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Dear talibahh, Ladies and Gentlemen;

I read the link but, I was not entirely pleased with the contents of the essay per se.

BDSM borrows on many dominant/authority and submission principles, to which "intent" and or "good faith" is the vehicle for the roles as it reflects on duty, honor, practicing rituals, protocols, etiquettes and based upon 'faith.' Thus religion is another word for faith, belief and or creed.

I do not understand why a slave/submissive submits by proxy, as proxy means to stand in for or substitute for.

However, no matter if it is military, civilian, Imperial (royal) and or religious practices, there are dominant/submissive elements to which creates leaders, belief in the leaders and followers and the belief in followers.

Religious cultures around the globe, practicing many types of faith, have submission as well as domination elements. The recognition of such keeps such alive and in a progressive manner. The spiritual manifestation was practiced with many forms of engagement of the mental, the emotional, the physical and the spiritual.

The Catholic Church was the instruments of the Holy Inquisition, to which tortured and killed many individuals to purge the land of Christianity. To which I may add was more brutal than Nazi Germany could ever dream of, to which they borrowed from to commit their tortures and such. Some torture equipments are used to day and some muted as not to do injury in modern BDSM.

Priests in the Catholic Church were subjected to self flagulation, as to reach the catharsis state, to purge, to allow them to float in the state we know as 'flying' or subspace. They also applied this to others, as to purge them as well.

In England, as Ben Franklin roamed as ambassador from America, visited the Hells Fire to which the ruins of an abby provided the 'theme' or backdrop to practice forms of debauchery, the elements of BDSM and orgies in a religious theme of the Black Mass.

Throughout history, people have sought peace, enightenment, the 'trip' in subspace or flying, to be healed, to be comforted and so many other elements that the religions of our time and those of history have promised.

What is shared with religion and BDSM is; beliefs, a structure of dominance and submission, teaching, philosophy (way of life), protocols, rituals, respect, duty, showing openly their submission and or leadership (authority/dominance but, not to the point of God/God like but, representative of a higher authority/faith). What is of a concern is that religion is not extremely spot on. It would be more accurate as to be titled more of a following, cult or practice in life in general, as BDSM has more than just the spiritual in mind.

Although the "spirit" and "faith" in an organized way of doing things, the vehicle to touch one's inner journey of finding one's bliss/happiness can be as varied as organized religions and pagan religions combined. Religion is just one path out of many.

At one point in civilization, leaders of countries were considered as Gods. So, not only were they the creators of religion but, instruments of praise and punishments. Head of the churches, they were considered closest to God and some really believed themselves to be Gods, as well as being cruel. Modern civilization has changed that status somewhat in some countries. However, religion is heavily factored into Government, to which we see even in the USA; where "God We Trust" is etched in so many governmental ways. Other countries factor in religion as it is an influence in life as we know it in the civilized world around the globe.

In summary, I rather keep the facts that BDSM borrows from many elements within the civilian, the military, the Imperial and or the religious area in general but, cannot lay claim to being specific but very general and subject to personal translations and applications.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to talibahh)

Post #: 24

RE: Is BDSM a religious act? - 6/18/2006 11:23:05 PM

talibahh

Posts: 389
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From: NSW Australia
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i have really enjoyed reading all of Your responses and thoughts... thank You for sharing them.

agirl... thanks... i will message you on the other side

LA... i always enjoy reading Your point of view/opinion (even when i may not agree )
       and thanks for the links... i really appreciate it... You're a legend!

LadiesBladewing... i am pleased You enjoyed the topic, as have i.
                          i really understand and can relate to alot of what You say... especially about "suppressing the tantrums of the ego to find joy and peace there"... something i am currently working through i also enjoyed and appreciate that "it is the ultimate expression of my spiritual nature". i can really understand this... i am self reflecting about somethings at the moment, and trying to workout where exactly i stand/where it all fits in for me...   thanks.
i find i often can relate to posts that You make

Taggard... Thanks... i wasnt quite sure if You would get what i was trying to say (i made a couple of posts last night that when i went back and read them today, i wondered *what was i thinking?* ) i really enjoyed Your take on this and understand what You are saying... for the most part, people do need to have a belief in something... a *hook*

thetammyjo... "they have to learn and exercise self control the same as the dominant..." i smiled when i read this... my Master pointed this out to me just a few days ago... something so simple, yet i had overlooked it... it's obvious that even in a 24/7 relationship, the Master/Mistress can not always be around, and the slave should always conduct her/himself as if S/He were... self control Thanks

meatclever... "spirituality keeps being brought in BDSM and an attempt to justify it because BDSM contradicts the morals people have been socialized to" ... this i can understand and even agree with... i find myself questioning something and i guess because partly this is at the crux of it...
However... "Why can't kink just be kink?" ... i'm afraid You lost me here on this one... as i view it differently, like LadiesBladeswing... for me it is more from M/s focus than it is a BDSM one... but then some could argue, that that in itself is a kink?

LadyHugs... You are amazing... such an interesting post... i always have loved history and thoroughly enjoyed reading what You have written... as always, You leave me with much to ponder over... Thank You

Thanks to all who have responded... i really have enjoyed reading Your thoughts and opinions... it's what i love most about these boards... so many points of view which allow me the freedom to search through them, ponder over them, and self-reflect to try and understand/learn more about those things which i still question (and often within myself).

i agree, that a slave does not submiit by proxy... because even though my journey is one where i hope to grow and improve as a person and as a slave, ultimately i still need to submit to my Master to feel fufilled. i can understand the concept of submitting to myself and my ego (or whatever) along the way, but to serve, submit to and hopefully please another and make Him happy, is so much more fulfilling to me... more rewarding, i guess. It's hard to explain... it just fills a need i have deep down inside.

As for the second question... i don't think it is a religion... i do think it can be very spiritual for a lot of people... and even for myself... thats what i love about this lifestyle... it is so diverse, it can and does mean so many different things to so many different people. my Master has been living the lifestlye for 27 years and He tells me, that He has seen and heard a lot in those years but nothing surprises Him anymore...

i have even more to ponder now... thanks again everyone...

tali

faith, hope and trust... and just a little bit of pixie dust

edited to add... sorry about the colour thetammyjo



< Message edited by talibahh -- 6/18/2006 11:31:30 PM >

_____________________________

"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time" ~ Sir Winston Churchill

in giving You my freedom, i gain the freedom to be me ...
~ tali ~

(in reply to LadyHugs)

Post #: 25

RE: Is BDSM a religious act? - 6/18/2006 11:38:38 PM

meatcleaver

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Joined: 3/13/2006
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This is just my opinion. People indulge in BDSM to get something out of it. While this can be said of religion too, it seems to me true faith and submission to a faith is not about getting anything out of it but a belief that one is pursuing a truth. Connecting with someone on a psychological level is not submitting to a religious philosophy or diety, it is connecting with ones partner. It is an act of gratification. There is nothing wrong with gratification but it is what it is. I don't see one selfless act in BDSM, even if one is selfless towards ones partner because one is getting a reward. The idea of reward is one of the corrupting ideas of religion. To be a true believer of a religion one lives according to that religion, not for an ultimate reward but because it is (believed to be) the truth. Judgement and reward is in the hands of the diety, not ones partner.

(in reply to LadiesBladewing)

Post #: 26

RE: Is BDSM a religious act? - 6/18/2006 11:39:02 PM

ElectraGlide

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Joined: 11/25/2005
From: Maryland
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Sure it can be there is a worship involved that can lift you to a higher power and self worth, which is what most conventional religoius people are looking for and may never get unless they pretend a little. Every body here is a student doing their studies no matter how experienced you are. When it comes to religion we only know a little about what is actually out there. It has been documented that a tribe in Africa worshiped a spike stuck in a tree and another tribe worshiped a lump of coal. When you watch the Exorcist movies that looks like some supernatural BDSM stuff going on too me lol.

(in reply to talibahh)

Post #: 27

RE: Is BDSM a religious act? - 6/19/2006 2:47:53 AM

darkinshadows

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From: UK
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Hello Aneirin - this is me sidestepping and say that it is good to see you posting on the boards.

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 28

RE: Is BDSM a religious act? - 6/19/2006 3:34:35 AM

agirl

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If spirituality is about a person's character and feelings, then it's impossible to define it, individually, in a way that could satisfy most people; a little like trying to define love.

I suppose that any *feelings* connected with your relationship or ones felt through some BDSM activity could be described as *spiritual*, in that case.

agirl

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 29

RE: Is BDSM a religious act? - 6/19/2006 3:58:05 AM

meatcleaver

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Spiritual can mean anything and it seems to me it is a word that is bandied about to give something gravitas and to justify ones indulgence by giving an activity a moral value. I still fail to see any religious content to BDSM that is not in a vanilla relationship or even a friendship and I'm unconvinced that just because people have a relationship, there is spiritual or religious content to it.

But yes, one can define anything as one chooses but the problem with giving everything your own personal definition rather than a definition defined through a consensus, is that you can't really communicate because everyone has a different perception of what is being discussed.

(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 30

RE: Is BDSM a religious act? - 6/19/2006 4:04:36 AM

darkinshadows

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From: UK
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Meatcleaver,

If you said religion - I would agree. Religion has morals - but spirituality has self awareness. There is no moral code in spirituality. It is easy to try and combine the two but they are totally different concepts. Religion isnt spirituality just as Ds isnt BDSM. But they can combine, but they do not have to.

Spirituality isnt designed by concensus nor majority like religion. There is no figurehead, no codes just individual expression and interpretation.

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 31

RE: Is BDSM a religious act? - 6/19/2006 4:35:04 AM

meatcleaver

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Joined: 3/13/2006
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You seem to be agreeing with me DS that spiritual can mean anything because it is defined by each individual.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 32

RE: Is BDSM a religious act? - 6/19/2006 5:10:41 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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I do agree meatcleaver, but I disagree that it is a justification for giving an activity a moral value. If morals are a societies (BDSM) custom - then there is no such thing. There are no morals - no set standard. If spirituality is an individual realisation, then morals do not technically exist - however ethics do.

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 33

RE: Is BDSM a religious act? - 6/19/2006 6:40:33 AM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Spiritual can mean anything and it seems to me it is a word that is bandied about to give something gravitas and to justify ones indulgence by giving an activity a moral value. I still fail to see any religious content to BDSM that is not in a vanilla relationship or even a friendship and I'm unconvinced that just because people have a relationship, there is spiritual or religious content to it.

But yes, one can define anything as one chooses but the problem with giving everything your own personal definition rather than a definition defined through a consensus, is that you can't really communicate because everyone has a different perception of what is being discussed.

Yes ....If, as I said above, spirituality is the *feeling* part of a person then it's not going to have a definition other than in the broadest sense.

agirl

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 34

RE: Is BDSM a religious act? - 6/19/2006 7:59:42 AM

subtill

Posts: 47
Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Germany
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For me ,if i see or met a Women who i like my feelings in my heart its like intensive religous feelings. All of her i like her feet too. So i´would be happy under her feet too. if i am in love everthing from/on her is like a reliquie for me. its not really the feeling o be under her, what the main thing for me is. It is only SHE,and my feelings for her.I have no shame to be her slave,my wanted are to be a part of her,perhaps the negative pol, to make her happy,what ever she like i'm willing to be or to do.

This is very similar explanation for what happende in my heart.
What i don't want is to change her like a (Fem )god. For me She is a human. But i say yes to the reality,that she is higher very high over myself.So for me its okay,to be for her like her house or hof animal, -so i would be a human pet for her. So i would have no wrights under her,even the same like her houseanimal,what she owned. But i should not mixed religousity with her ,with my life under her,if it will be happened once upon a time in my future.
I don't know, if someone has understand myself,its not similar to say it in english,sorry for my bad or worst english.

If someone has interest to see a film,there is one who ihad seen in Germany its called The Passion of Life wtp international GmbH

[email protected]
www.wtpfilm.de
www.24-7derfilm.de
There you can get more information of BDSM and Religion

All Love from sub_Till

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 35

RE: Is BDSM a religious act? - 6/19/2006 11:10:03 AM

Aneirin

Posts: 6121
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From: Tamaris
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My apologies,but side stepping again,

Thankyou .dark.

I will get rid of this ice cream cone somehow!

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 36

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