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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 1/2/2013 5:04:47 AM

ChatteParfaitt

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

FR

Just for kicks, I just looked up the definition of "slave." And there it states one definition as "A person entirely under the domination of some influence or person." And to "dominate" is to, among other things, "Rule over; govern. To exercise an elevated or commanding position."

Nothing about "consent." Well, not necessarily, anyway.

So if I stopped there, I would think that the difference between a slave and a sub is the amount of control another has over him/her. And I would think there are very, very, very few true slaves.

But then I think, even just retaining the legal right to walk away detracts from being "entirely under the domination of" someone, doesn't it?

That is why I agree with OsideGirl. As she put it, I don't believe in consensual slavery, so in my mind everyone is a submissive.

I've gone back and forth over the issue of consensual slavery many times in the last 20 years. Is it really even possible between two human beings?

I would say, in *some* ways, I am a slave to Himself. In the end he is in charge, he makes the final decision, and it's my job to serve his needs. But he does not make major decisions without my input, ever, he will easily change a decision based on insight from me, and our reality is that we work best as a couple serving each other's needs and making *us* the priority (as I think most realistic couples do).

Based on my observations, I would say Kana and lw do the same, though their relationship is structured along very different lines. I would OsideGirl and her Mister do the same, though again they have their own person relationship structure.

This despite lw most definitely relating as slave, and Oside relating as sub. Which is why even attempting to draw heavy lines between the sub and slave label will only get you into trouble.

Aswad said:

quote:

The term slave seems inappropriate if you can leave in practice.

That is why, perhaps, I have issues with calling myself or my submissive a slave. In a long term D/s relationship, most subs are going to have some degree of internal enslavement. But in my mind, *everyone* has the right and should have the personal wherewithal to leave a relationship that is not working for them.

< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 1/2/2013 5:06:12 AM >

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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 1/2/2013 7:25:16 AM

Moonlightmaddnes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

I would say, in *some* ways, I am a slave to Himself. In the end he is in charge, he makes the final decision, and it's my job to serve his needs. But he does not make major decisions without my input, ever, he will easily change a decision based on insight from me, and our reality is that we work best as a couple serving each other's needs and making *us* the priority (as I think most realistic couples do).

Here too. There are many things we discuss together. We are married and have children together and in reality it would would be exhausting for him to work and make every single decision. There are many times with the kids he says it is up to me. I ask him about bigger things like when our daughter wanted her ears pierced for her birthday. He came home from work, and I told him what she wanted for her birthday. He said no right away. She was dissapointed and tried to beg me but I was able to say daddy said no and that is the end of discussion. I thought he was worried about it hurting, but he did explain later he was worried she was too young to care for her ears properly and they would get infected. He pointed out we would have a newborn less then a month after her birthday, and I would have enough to do without keeping after our daughter to take care of her ears. Most times I find it very freeing to be able to say let's see what your dad says, or I need to speak to my husband. There are times I think he is wrong and that is where my grey area comes in. I will tell him when I disagree and we discuss it until we are in agreement.

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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 1/2/2013 8:10:36 AM

crazyml

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

I've gone back and forth over the issue of consensual slavery many times in the last 20 years. Is it really even possible between two human beings?

Me too. Although, since I'm only young, it's probably not been quite that many years I've been going over it. :-P

Barelynangel (love her or hate her) had a lot to say on this topic, and setting aside any issues I might have had with her (I was not a "fan") she got the closest to nailing it for me.

quote:

Aswad said:

quote:

The term slave seems inappropriate if you can leave in practice.

That is why, perhaps, I have issues with calling myself or my submissive a slave. In a long term D/s relationship, most subs are going to have some degree of internal enslavement. But in my mind, *everyone* has the right and should have the personal wherewithal to leave a relationship that is not working for them.

So what does "leave in practice" mean?

I'd hope we're all hip to the idea that this doesn't require a physical barrier, and that someone can be psychologically unable to to leave in practice?

Taking the darker, more unpleasant side of this kind of enslavement - There are many intelligent, articulate, and (now) confident survivors of domestic abuse (Of both genders - for the Gender Equality buffs) who will admit that despite there being a ton of information on how to leave, despite them being aware of the existence of refuges etc, they could not leave.

I don't think that that level of enslavement needs to be linked with an abusive relationship. That said the person who is enslaved is certainly exposing themselves to the potential for abuse, and I have seen posts (here and elsewhere) by passionate proponents of "enslavement" who I am absolutely certain were in denial about the fact that they were in (or the relationship they were lauding was) an abusive relationship.

So... I think it is possible to be a slave, when to you, for all practical purposes, you have no way of revoking consent.

I also think it's possible for a relationship like this to be non-abusive.

Having said all that.... My views are somewhat clouded by the fact that I, personally and for me, cannot see the appeal in having someone enslaved to me. As a dominant... I want her to consent over and over. Her consent to my dominance is a big part of my kink.

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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 1/2/2013 9:26:50 AM

OhRose

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If I were you I wouldn't worry about the titles or generalizations, as they really can't provide an accurate enough description of what it is you identify as. It's really just a likening to a sub or a slave. Not every person that identifies as a sub wants the same thing, or has the same identical interests and dislikes. It's best to identify yourself outside of those boundaries, and explain that to the Dominant. If they're worth the effort, I'm sure they'll understand.

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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 1/2/2013 9:43:35 AM

Aswad

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As you say, crazyml, a slave is vulnerable to abuse, pretty much by the very definition, at least the one I provided.

Leonidas put it interestingly on one thread a long time ago, when a kajira said she was having trouble with her owner and wondering what to do to improve the situation. The gist of the advice he gave her was, "You should do what slaves throughout the ages have done: run away if you can, and adapt if you can't."

I like bottoms, subs and slaves, but would prefer them in different roles in my life.

Which brings us back to unicorns... oh, dear.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 1/2/2013 9:44:18 AM >

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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 1/2/2013 10:01:14 AM

SeekingTrinity

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~FRing it~

I personally have always felt that the meaning behind the words "submissive" and "slave" are very subjective and highly individualized to the people involved in the dynamic. One person's submissive is another person's slave. And there is nothing wrong with that at all. I personally like using the word "slave" when I refer to the one who submits to me. It has a nice ring to it, if you want the honest truth. I dont call someone my "sub" because thats a little too Hunt for Red October/Crimson Tide/Das Boot for my tastes

But I will say this, whether the person submitting to me considers him/herself a submissive or slave...I still take into account limits that they have and I personally respect those limits. But thats just how my personal D/s works for me. Everyone is different.

I totally agree with what Crazyml had to say. Continual consent (whether as a slave or a submissive) is very much a turn on for me and it feeds the happy little power tripper inside of me. I just do my part to make it so that they dont want to leave. Not by brutality or abuse. But because Ive shown myself to be that good and that I have what they need...and they know it.

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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 1/2/2013 10:22:55 AM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
The term slave seems inappropriate if you can leave in practice.

That sort of. In my case Carol can think "leaving thoughts" because I've not gone to any trouble to prevent that. Quite the contrary actually, I encourage it. It's interesting that I feel I NEED to do a bit of work to keep those paths open. I would like it if she had more freedom of choice than she actually does. And even then, she has those options on my sufferance which isn't exactly the same as "free".

But also, I suspect for most people there is some point at which misery of the right sort exceeds submission. Absolutes are never really going to work I suspect. I tend to see these behaviors as "relative to human norm" when deciding how submissive someone's base personality is. If it goes far enough from norm I start using "slave" and saying things like "can't leave".

Littlewonder demonstrates another "cannot leave" example rooted less in mysterious mental stuff and more in practical reality. I would call her "a flight risk" and so Kana acted to prevent "incorrect leaving". Depending on how he does that he might risk court action if he guesses wrong. I've seen that one before also. It's not "lost in fantasy". It's very real... and very risky.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrazyML
I also think it's possible for a relationship like this to be non-abusive.

Yeah... that's kind of how I see our marriage. I have the skills to be a Jim Jones. The rest of my temperament goes in different directions though so it turns out much happier. I often think of our marriage in the sense of a really abusive one without the abuse part.

I don't think Carol ever really "consented" to start with and I don't think she can revoke what she never gave. I think we have a straight-forward situation with a "stronger" personality overshadowing a "weaker" one and that isn't some sort of static thing... it's a system with dynamic tension in it. "Consent", however, isn't a part of the equation. "Consent" is another of those BDSM concepts that were excellent in the context that they were created to be used in. But as always, those concepts fail when looking at something vastly different than a casual hookup for some play.

Whether she can leave or not is a result of that dynamic tension not some absolute "yes", "no" answer. But it'd be a crap-load harder for her to do it than for most.

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 1/2/2013 10:39:48 AM >

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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 1/2/2013 4:46:05 PM

littlewonder

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quote:

Littlewonder demonstrates another "cannot leave" example rooted less in mysterious mental stuff and more in practical reality. I would call her "a flight risk" and so Kana acted to prevent "incorrect leaving". Depending on how he does that he might risk court action if he guesses wrong. I've seen that one before also. It's not "lost in fantasy". It's very real... and very risky.

He doesn't see me as a flight risk I don't think and what he does is not risky. I broke down in tears, I was angry, I was upset, not with him but myself and just felt as if I could not be what he wanted. What did he do? He had me kneel beside him and we talked for a very long time. The rest of the week he reminded me that if I ever did that again, there will never be another again and no coming back. We love each other very much and so for us it was just a rough patch. We are strong together and so neither of us feels any kind of legal risk or anything like that. It never even once has crossed my mind lol. He also knows that if I do something like I did it's not because of him, it's because of me. I put too much on myself. I never feel good enough for him. So if he were to restrain me in some way it would be because he is saving me from myself and I would understand that after I have calmed down and we have talked it through and come to a rational point together.

I rarely ever get that emotional but sometimes it does happen with him when I'm not feeling the best about myself.

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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 1/2/2013 6:27:43 PM

Kana

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
In the case of LW or Jeff, or similar other dynamics, your partner knows you well enough to trust and obey you (or vice-versa) because the dynamic has evolved beyond just owning or being 'property'.

Not quite. She's always been owned, always is my property. That's the foundation. Anything built on that is nice, but that's the root.
Now, the door is always open-she can jet at any time. But the key, and this is crucial, is that door, it may not open again.
That's my call.

Life is simple. Make a choice, pay a consequence (Make no mistake about it, there's a cost for everything, always)
She can make that choice, but there's a price tag attached. And she ain't the one who gets to set the price. I do.
And walking, that's not something I take casually. I don't like fucking with people's hearts (Because I don't like people playing with mine), and walking, ending a LT relationship, yeah, that's the nuclear option.
Pull that on me and it ain't gonna go well at all...

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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 1/2/2013 8:13:32 PM

Moonlightmaddnes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

Littlewonder demonstrates another "cannot leave" example rooted less in mysterious mental stuff and more in practical reality. I would call her "a flight risk" and so Kana acted to prevent "incorrect leaving". Depending on how he does that he might risk court action if he guesses wrong. I've seen that one before also. It's not "lost in fantasy". It's very real... and very risky.

He doesn't see me as a flight risk I don't think and what he does is not risky. I broke down in tears, I was angry, I was upset, not with him but myself and just felt as if I could not be what he wanted. What did he do? He had me kneel beside him and we talked for a very long time. The rest of the week he reminded me that if I ever did that again, there will never be another again and no coming back. We love each other very much and so for us it was just a rough patch. We are strong together and so neither of us feels any kind of legal risk or anything like that. It never even once has crossed my mind lol. He also knows that if I do something like I did it's not because of him, it's because of me. I put too much on myself. I never feel good enough for him. So if he were to restrain me in some way it would be because he is saving me from myself and I would understand that after I have calmed down and we have talked it through and come to a rational point together.

I rarely ever get that emotional but sometimes it does happen with him when I'm not feeling the best about myself.

That sucks to feel like that, I have had moments like that. This pregnancy is kicking my ass. I would start dinner or the dishes and be hit with morning sickness and feeling like I would pass out. It is suppose to end by the 2nd trimester but here I am at 7 months and still get sick off and on. He takes over leaving me feeling like I was useless. I am sure pregnancy hormones has a lot to do with it. While I did not try to leave I was a mess of tears having my pity party. He reminded me that this will pass and instead of having a pity party I should enjoy the break since I don't get one often. I am used to the house always clean, dinner ready when he comes in and now there are times I am still trying to get through the dishes using a fan to keep from hurling, passing out or both. blah

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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 1/3/2013 1:36:23 AM

littlewonder

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I had morning sickness the first 6 months and then sciatica the last three. UGH. And get used to not ever having a clean house or dinner on time ever again until they move out lol.

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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 1/3/2013 7:29:59 AM

Moonlightmaddnes

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Oh that would suck. I would rather feel faint and queasy then that! The doctor called today and said my iron was really low, so hopefully that is why I feel horrible and the pills he ordered will help. The only time I am in a lot of pain is when I sweep and mop my floors. Weird. I spend the rest of the night moving the heating pad from my back to my hips and I feel like an old lady who needs a cane to walk. I thought it was just me but other moms on a pregnancy board I am on said the same thing. Most people tell me to just have my 7 year old do it. Well she tried doing the floors. She was all proud of herself so I waited until she went out to play to re do them since she missed most of the dirt. She loves to help but she is a bit too young yet to let her go at it alone. It is cute though how her face lights up when one of us tells her she did a great job at being a helper.

< Message edited by Moonlightmaddnes -- 1/3/2013 7:31:54 AM >

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