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A radical proposition. - 12/31/2012 9:28:02 AM

DarkSteven

Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
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I, like every other American, have been stunned by the spectacle of a Congress that cannot do a damn thing. The GOP cannot even come to a consensus internally that allows them to negotiate with Dems.

One of the reasons is that pressure groups like the NRA and Grover Norquist have threatened primary challenges to any Republicans who don't vote their way. In solid red constituencies, that is a potent threat because the winner of the GOP primary is guaranteed the general election.

Unfortunately, the only solutions I can see will involve possibly stretching the fabric of what I consider acceptable in terms of exerting undue influence on the political process. Maybe I'm complaining about a draft after a house has been completely demolished...

Anyhow, I'm starting to play around with ideas in which Obama faces the lobbies head-on. I'd love to see him make a speech in which he decries the influence the lobbies have had on constipating the process and making legislating impossible. He then would make some kind of offer to those GOPfolks who broke with the lobbies. perhaps a $10 million contribution to their primary campaign. Possibly the use of his field staff organization and GOTV efforts.

I don't like this idea, but can see no better way to get the government to actually do things again.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

Post #: 1

RE: A radical proposition. - 12/31/2012 9:45:46 AM

Yachtie

Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

Over the last four years, our national debt has grown by more than $5 trillion to over $16 trillion. We have to service that debt. The Federal Reserve is keeping rates historically low but here's the cost of paying interest on the debt for fiscal 2012: $359,796,008,919.49

What do you get for that? Nothing.

The greatest fiscal challenge to the U.S. government is not just its annual deficit but its total liabilities. Our federal balance sheet does not include the unfunded social insurance obligations of Medicare, Social Security, and the future retirement benefits of federal employees. Only in the small print of the financial statements do you get some idea of the enormous size of the unfunded commitments. Today the estimated unfunded total is more than $87 trillion, or 550 percent of our GDP.

Tax increases will not cover the current needs. It will taker massive spending cuts. Tell me DS, is Obama even discussing this? Is he or the dems actually putting what's needed on the table?

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 2

RE: A radical proposition. - 12/31/2012 9:56:29 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
Tax increases will not cover the current needs. It will taker massive spending cuts. Tell me DS, is Obama even discussing this? Is he or the dems actually putting what's needed on the table?

The president offered spending cuts equal to the amount of new revenue. The major objective of these negotiations is to not cut spending too much and send the world back into a recession.

(in reply to Yachtie)

Post #: 3

RE: A radical proposition. - 12/31/2012 10:22:27 AM

Yachtie

Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
The major objective of these negotiations is to not cut spending too much and send the world back into a recession.

Is it any wonder we're headed towards financial apocalypse?

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 4

RE: A radical proposition. - 12/31/2012 10:27:50 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I, like every other American, have been stunned by the spectacle of a Congress that cannot do a damn thing. The GOP cannot even come to a consensus internally that allows them to negotiate with Dems.

One of the reasons is that pressure groups like the NRA and Grover Norquist have threatened primary challenges to any Republicans who don't vote their way. In solid red constituencies, that is a potent threat because the winner of the GOP primary is guaranteed the general election.

Unfortunately, the only solutions I can see will involve possibly stretching the fabric of what I consider acceptable in terms of exerting undue influence on the political process. Maybe I'm complaining about a draft after a house has been completely demolished...

Anyhow, I'm starting to play around with ideas in which Obama faces the lobbies head-on. I'd love to see him make a speech in which he decries the influence the lobbies have had on constipating the process and making legislating impossible. He then would make some kind of offer to those GOPfolks who broke with the lobbies. perhaps a $10 million contribution to their primary campaign. Possibly the use of his field staff organization and GOTV efforts.

I don't like this idea, but can see no better way to get the government to actually do things again.

so bribery is the answer

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 5

RE: A radical proposition. - 12/31/2012 10:54:50 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
The major objective of these negotiations is to not cut spending too much and send the world back into a recession.

Is it any wonder we're headed towards financial apocalypse?

With people who think deficit reduction during a recovery from a financial meltdown is important having any influence on policy? Yeah, its pretty scary. I'm hopeful the tea party idiots will be done after 2014.

(in reply to Yachtie)

Post #: 6

RE: A radical proposition. - 12/31/2012 11:38:25 AM

DarkSteven

Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

Tax increases will not cover the current needs. It will taker massive spending cuts. Tell me DS, is Obama even discussing this? Is he or the dems actually putting what's needed on the table?

You're not getting it. You're focusing on getting your way. I'm focused on having a functioning system again, not something that will shut down if a minority does not get their way.

We've run deficits before. I don't like it, but it won't destroy the world if we continue to do so. Trashing our bond rating will NOT help things.

Again, refusing to deal in good faith unless you get 100% of what you want is NOT the way to resolve anything.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to Yachtie)

Post #: 7

RE: A radical proposition. - 12/31/2012 12:04:36 PM

DesideriScuri

Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
Tax increases will not cover the current needs. It will taker massive spending cuts. Tell me DS, is Obama even discussing this? Is he or the dems actually putting what's needed on the table?

You're not getting it. You're focusing on getting your way. I'm focused on having a functioning system again, not something that will shut down if a minority does not get their way.
We've run deficits before. I don't like it, but it won't destroy the world if we continue to do so. Trashing our bond rating will NOT help things.
Again, refusing to deal in good faith unless you get 100% of what you want is NOT the way to resolve anything.

The only real reason the Dem's are prepping to blame the GOP for everything is because they aren't willing to negotiate to meet the GOP. Boehner proposed tax increases and the Dem's decried them. Okay, fine. Take 'em back.

Apparently, neither side is willing to bend over enough to meet the other side. How 'bout we just pass the Simpson-Bowles plan and work from there? Neither side really likes it, but it's not terribly slanted one way or the other.

The problem is that we can't continue to incur more and more debt indefinitely. You aren't going to tax our way out of this. That's simply ridiculous. And, we aren't going to cut spending enough to realistically do it, either. It is going to take revenue increases and expenditure decreases. We need social welfare program reform. We need defense spending reform. We need to stop porkbarrel projects. All of them. We need to cut all the loopholes. All of them. I'd have no problem with all the tax cuts sunsetting and all loopholes cut. We didn't get where we are by cutting taxes for the uber-rich. We aren't going to get back to fiscal sanity by increasing taxes on only the uber-rich. We aren't going to get out of this by jacking up taxes on the uber-rich. Everyone needs to contribute. If that means that everyone has to rely on themselves more than they do now, so be it. If that means that everyone needs to contribute more tax dollars than they do now, so be it.

I would argue that a progressive tax system like the brackets we have isn't equal protection under the law. I would argue that only a flat tax or National Sales Tax system does that. I would love to see us start to work our way there. I think the logical first step is to jettison all loopholes and/or sunset the Bush Tax Cuts (and the Obama tax cuts). Step two would be to start hacking the living shit out of spending, across the board. And, you can't count limiting spending increases as spending cuts, either. It has to be cut now, and start now. No more of this horseshit 10 year plan to cut taxes with the last 5 or 6 years heavily backloaded with cuts. Everything has to start now.

Also heard on the news that Obama will look to reverse all the changes due to going over the cliff as soon as Congress is back in session. So, going over the cliff isn't necessarily that scary.

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 8

RE: A radical proposition. - 12/31/2012 12:31:35 PM

Fellow

Posts: 1486
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

I don't like this idea, but can see no better way to get the government to actually do things again.

What things? The US is a corporate state. Corporate profits are high, the property prices and the markets are propped up, there is a continuous TARP by the Federal Reserve. Top level white collar crime is successfully not investigated and not prosecuted. How can you say the government is ineffective?

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 9

RE: A radical proposition. - 12/31/2012 12:34:23 PM

hlen5

Posts: 5890
Joined: 3/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

Tax increases will not cover the current needs. It will taker massive spending cuts. Tell me DS, is Obama even discussing this? Is he or the dems actually putting what's needed on the table?

You're not getting it. You're focusing on getting your way. I'm focused on having a functioning system again, not something that will shut down if a minority does not get their way.

We've run deficits before. I don't like it, but it won't destroy the world if we continue to do so. Trashing our bond rating will NOT help things.

Again, refusing to deal in good faith unless you get 100% of what you want is NOT the way to resolve anything.

QFT.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 10

RE: A radical proposition. - 12/31/2012 4:27:01 PM

Yachtie

Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

You're not getting it. You're focusing on getting your way. I'm focused on having a functioning system again, not something that will shut down if a minority does not get their way.

I'm focusing on what the math says. Gravity, as an example, I do not argue with. Your functional system is going bye bye. It's to bad you do not see that.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 11

RE: A radical proposition. - 12/31/2012 4:31:17 PM

DarkSteven

Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

You're not getting it. You're focusing on getting your way. I'm focused on having a functioning system again, not something that will shut down if a minority does not get their way.

I'm focusing on what the math says. Gravity, as an example, I do not argue with. Your functional system is going bye bye. It's to bad you do not see that.

It can't be maintained forever, granted. But the mechanism by which it might be changed someday is broken. You seem to think that if the GOP refuses to do anything, the Dems will cave and suddenly we'll get a package you like.

That won't happen. Let me repeat, that won't happen.

If the GOP refuses to deal with the Dems, the Dems will go into lockdown mode. They are NOT going to offer all sorts of concessions to appease the GOP. It's more important at this point to preserve the ability of Congress to actually make deals, than what the deal itself will consist of.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to Yachtie)

Post #: 12

RE: A radical proposition. - 12/31/2012 5:44:18 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

You're not getting it. You're focusing on getting your way. I'm focused on having a functioning system again, not something that will shut down if a minority does not get their way.

I'm focusing on what the math says. Gravity, as an example, I do not argue with. Your functional system is going bye bye. It's to bad you do not see that.

The debt load, as percentage of GDP,is not that high, compare to 1945. Paying it down when the economy is doing well should be a priority but during bad times austerity gets us nowhere. Europe over the last 4 years has proven the keynesians right, as if we needed more proof but some "conservatives" tried to pretend otherwise.

(in reply to Yachtie)

Post #: 13

RE: A radical proposition. - 12/31/2012 6:47:34 PM

Powergamz1

Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline

And while everyone is gasping at the spectacle of this battle between the good and evil Titans, Congressional pay raises and other business as usual seems to have no problem making it through the 'impasse'.

http://news.yahoo.com/fiscal-cliff-fail-congress-reject-pay-raise-133500511.html;_ylt=A2KJ3CfJTeJQKkAAaB3QtDMD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

You're not getting it. You're focusing on getting your way. I'm focused on having a functioning system again, not something that will shut down if a minority does not get their way.

I'm focusing on what the math says. Gravity, as an example, I do not argue with. Your functional system is going bye bye. It's to bad you do not see that.

It can't be maintained forever, granted. But the mechanism by which it might be changed someday is broken. You seem to think that if the GOP refuses to do anything, the Dems will cave and suddenly we'll get a package you like.

That won't happen. Let me repeat, that won't happen.

If the GOP refuses to deal with the Dems, the Dems will go into lockdown mode. They are NOT going to offer all sorts of concessions to appease the GOP. It's more important at this point to preserve the ability of Congress to actually make deals, than what the deal itself will consist of.

_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 14

RE: A radical proposition. - 12/31/2012 7:25:28 PM

DarkSteven

Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

And while everyone is gasping at the spectacle of this battle between the good and evil Titans, Congressional pay raises and other business as usual seems to have no problem making it through the 'impasse'.

http://news.yahoo.com/fiscal-cliff-fail-congress-reject-pay-raise-133500511.html;_ylt=A2KJ3CfJTeJQKkAAaB3QtDMD

I can't follow the article. Is it saying that the raise will occur even if no deal is reached? If not, I can see Obama dropping in the raise as a sweetener for them to cut a deal.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to Powergamz1)

Post #: 15

RE: A radical proposition. - 12/31/2012 9:46:31 PM

Aylee

Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

And while everyone is gasping at the spectacle of this battle between the good and evil Titans, Congressional pay raises and other business as usual seems to have no problem making it through the 'impasse'.

http://news.yahoo.com/fiscal-cliff-fail-congress-reject-pay-raise-133500511.html;_ylt=A2KJ3CfJTeJQKkAAaB3QtDMD

I can't follow the article. Is it saying that the raise will occur even if no deal is reached? If not, I can see Obama dropping in the raise as a sweetener for them to cut a deal.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obama-orders-raise-biden-members-congress-federal-workers_692223.html

Congress? Hell no. He did it with an EO.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 16

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