The Greater Kindness (Full Version)

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metamorfosis -> The Greater Kindness (1/3/2013 3:19:43 AM)

I caught a snippet of that show "Dance Moms" the other day. It's the one with the girls' dance team and the agro coach. In this episode, the lead dancer (who was like 14) had to dance with a painful injury, and one of the other girls was in danger of being kicked off the team because her performance affected the team's placement. After their performance, the coach came in and took each girl to task for every mistake she'd made, when it was obvious what they really wanted was to be told they'd done a good job. (Which they did.) I realize the show is designed to get viewers pissed off at the coach's abrasive behavior, but it got me thinking about the value of pushing people to excel versus being tolerant and compassionate.

What struck me was that this "pushing" was perhaps portrayed in too negative a light. The coach was painted as the "bad guy" (and, in all fairness, maybe she truly was), but the fact remains that those girls were as good as they were because their coach pushed so hard. Moreover, none of the girls seemed traumatized by this "pushing". They seemed to take it in stride, at least from what I could see, from the one episode. Furthermore, they all had their moms there to tell them how they were great and did a good job. So on the one hand they had tolerance and compassion while, on the other, they had objectivity and the push to excel. So, which is the greater kindness?

Now, no one demonstrates one trait or the other exclusively, but I think it's fair to say most people tend towards compassion or objectivity. I wondered how this might affect their BDSM relationships. How does the dominant who favors compassion structure their dynamic differently than the dominant who favors the "push"? How do the submissive's views fit in? Must a successful dynamic consist of people who both favor "the push" over compassion, or who both favor compassion over "the push"? Or do opposites attract?

Did you learn these values from your parents? Do you value "the push" because they did? Do you perhaps value compassion because they pushed too hard? Is the value you tend towards in your BDSM relationships (i.e. objectivity or compassion) the same as the one you tend towards in vanilla life? Or does your BDSM role require that you adopt a very different "self"? Which value would you choose to pass on to your children? Obviously everyone is sometimes kind and sometimes driven, but I'm asking you to reflect on which you are the most often. Chances are, one of those two traits characterizes you more than the other.

Which of the two do you think is more important? Which do you think is more difficult?

Thanks in advance for your responses.

Pam








Doomkittie -> RE: The Greater Kindness (1/3/2013 4:37:02 AM)

I value compassion because they pushed too hard. (Parents) unrealistically so.

Having said hat I want a Dom who pushes and pushes but tempers it with compassion and praise. I don't think I could do it and not get some positive strokes.

DK



NuevaVida -> RE: The Greater Kindness (1/3/2013 6:39:45 AM)

A balanced blend works for me. That blend will differ, though, depending on the person.

My last owner pushed sooooo hard, constantly, with very little compassion. In the end, he pushed too hard, and caused harm (emotional and physical). Now, I am with someone who is not a "pusher" but who uses encouragement and positive feedback. The difference is astounding.

Example: Former dude pushed me to lose weight. He pushed excessively, and tried humiliating me into it, too. The result was pulled muscles which prevented me from exercising, self-loathing at my body size, and overall, I think I gained about 40 pounds with him. Contrast that to the Mister, who has only encouraged me along the way, including giving positive feedback even when I had weeks of gaining instead of losing. For the most part he has allowed me to gauge my own progress and embark on my own diet/exercise plan, but he's been my cheering section along the way, and my support system when I needed it. The result has been a 95 pound weight loss.

As for my upbringing, my parents did not push. They figured if I wanted something badly enough I'd go do it.

I watch shows like "Dance Moms" (I can only stomach that show in snippets) and "Biggest Loser" and I think there's no way in hell those hard-ass approaches would work for me. I just don't respond well to it. I had a friend who tried pushing me, regarding exercise, and I told her to fuck off.

So in my case, when I say a balance of the two, an example of that is a day when I really don't want to go to the gym, I really am feeling schleppy and lazy, and I tell him I don't think I'm going to go. And he says, "Yes, you need to go, so go." And I do go, and I feel better for having going. On the other hand, if he thinks I'm pushing myself too hard, he'll tell me to take a break and skip a work out, and let my body rest. And then he compliments me on my efforts.



theRose4U -> RE: The Greater Kindness (1/3/2013 9:40:07 AM)

I think athletes & performers are a different breed. The "golden carrot" isn't this show or that meet but in my case olympic trials & higher level shows. This is why teams even in individual sports are so important. The coach is there paid to get the best performance possible, not be your buddy & eat sundaes while holding hands. Team mates are the ones that help with he/she is just being a bitch you rocked. This allows for more clear focus of where improvement is needed.
I think positive/negative reinforcement need to be balanced. Setting a new state record was the first time my coach actually praised me. Doing it in public made the sacrifices & work that much better.
As for these kid talent reality shows...I think they intentionally pick the best & worst adults because it makes good television. A show about the repition over & over & over leading up to a meet or performance would be REEEEAlLY boring! They add the stage mom, the slutty drunk & the psycho bitch to keep people tuned in. They want to see what evil thing psycho coach will say next, how slutty mom will fit in with the new coach & which kid will crack under the pressure. Sure its "real" but an editing booth turns 2 weeks of the same boring crap into 30 minutes of drama worth at least slowing down to watch the car wreck...honey boo boo...need I say more?



Fastergirl -> RE: The Greater Kindness (1/3/2013 11:38:04 AM)

Yes I agree the two need to be somewhat balanced.

Having said that I need the push because my parents did not push me and so I don't have the best self management skills outside of work. I need the parameters and structure in place for me to do my very best and continue to improve myself in all ways. My vanilla boyfriends always disappointed me because they wouldn't push back. I'm a very good arguer against doing something if I really don't. But now, with a proper master, I don't get to do all of that and I'm much happier.



DesFIP -> RE: The Greater Kindness (1/3/2013 2:48:00 PM)

It's tv. They aren't picking the kids who will go home and slit their wrists as a result of this.

My daughter was at national level as an all around western youth rider. I can assure you that her coach did not attack the kids. Criticism can be constructive without being nasty. Factual instead of threatening self esteem.

And most of the years it was intense but not shaming. Lean back, knees in, relax your hand, your circle isn't circular - tighten it up.

The better coaches can analyze what someone is doing and see the small details that need changing. Your hand or leg position does not have anything to do with your character.



SailingBum -> RE: The Greater Kindness (1/3/2013 3:24:29 PM)

Right its TV not real life. Ya know it's real simple shit. Instill in your kids, wife, gf whatever to always try your best. That way, sure there will be disappointment but NOT from giving it your all. That is all I can ask of someone to give it their personal best.

BadOne



littlewonder -> RE: The Greater Kindness (1/3/2013 5:10:12 PM)

I value both just as equally. There's a time and a place for both of them and personally I like a relationship that can have that balance and he knows which needs to be at the right times.

I was the same way with my daughter although with her I was more the compassionate type simply because anytime you try to push her she breaks down in a nervous meltdown with tears and craziness everywhere.

But had she not been that way I would have pushed her more which I tried to always do with her but she's just a very sensitive type gal. Master tends to do both and he knows when I need to be pushed and when he needs to be more compassionate. It's one of the things I love about him....balance.



RemoteUser -> RE: The Greater Kindness (1/3/2013 6:28:05 PM)

I don't push on glass and don't compliment stone. Seems elemental to me.



theSwan -> RE: The Greater Kindness (1/3/2013 7:33:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

I caught a snippet of that show "Dance Moms" the other day. It's the one with the girls' dance team and the agro coach. In this episode, the lead dancer (who was like 14) had to dance with a painful injury, and one of the other girls was in danger of being kicked off the team because her performance affected the team's placement. After their performance, the coach came in and took each girl to task for every mistake she'd made, when it was obvious what they really wanted was to be told they'd done a good job. (Which they did.) I realize the show is designed to get viewers pissed off at the coach's abrasive behavior, but it got me thinking about the value of pushing people to excel versus being tolerant and compassionate.

What struck me was that this "pushing" was perhaps portrayed in too negative a light. The coach was painted as the "bad guy" (and, in all fairness, maybe she truly was), but the fact remains that those girls were as good as they were because their coach pushed so hard. Moreover, none of the girls seemed traumatized by this "pushing". They seemed to take it in stride, at least from what I could see, from the one episode. Furthermore, they all had their moms there to tell them how they were great and did a good job. So on the one hand they had tolerance and compassion while, on the other, they had objectivity and the push to excel. So, which is the greater kindness?

Now, no one demonstrates one trait or the other exclusively, but I think it's fair to say most people tend towards compassion or objectivity. I wondered how this might affect their BDSM relationships. How does the dominant who favors compassion structure their dynamic differently than the dominant who favors the "push"? How do the submissive's views fit in? Must a successful dynamic consist of people who both favor "the push" over compassion, or who both favor compassion over "the push"? Or do opposites attract?

Did you learn these values from your parents? Do you value "the push" because they did? Do you perhaps value compassion because they pushed too hard? Is the value you tend towards in your BDSM relationships (i.e. objectivity or compassion) the same as the one you tend towards in vanilla life? Or does your BDSM role require that you adopt a very different "self"? Which value would you choose to pass on to your children? Obviously everyone is sometimes kind and sometimes driven, but I'm asking you to reflect on which you are the most often. Chances are, one of those two traits characterizes you more than the other.

Which of the two do you think is more important? Which do you think is more difficult?

Thanks in advance for your responses.

Pam


Warning - Rambling, not-real answer. I tried and it just devolved into thinking aloud. I threw some short answers at the end so I felt like I had at least addressed something properly.

The world will compliment you.
Anyone with a face [anyone you personally know] is looking to tell you how you did your best, how attractive or impressive you are.

Compassion and compliments are easy because they are safe.
You'll never lose a friend, a family member, or a loved one over telling them something encouraging and supportive.

I know so many enablers.

"You don't need to lose weight, you're beautiful and perfect!" - When the subject in question is suffering health problems from their weight.
"All of the people who make you unhappy are jerks and you deserve better!" - When the subject in question conducts behavior that brings misery on themselves.
"I love your artwork, it's amazing." - When the artwork isn't good and the subject in question hasn't improved in years.

Is that what compassion is?
Sparing the child the vaccination because it hurts and they'll cry when it happens?
Giving them the lollipop at the end because that's what they really wanted to come to the doctor's office for?

--

In the case cited.
Think about all of the people who would tell any and all of those girls of how wonderful they did.
And alone stands the coach.
The one person who will make sure they don't lose sight of where they can improve.

The one person who isn't just focused on making the girls happy.
But in making them better.
Who believes in their potential and is willing to fight for that.
No matter how ugly or unpopular it looks.

And, though I know nothing about the show, I'm willing to bet that those girls would value the praise of that coach more than every other person praising them combined.

Because someone who critiques you.
Someone who doesn't look away from your flaws and doesn't let you look away.
Is someone you know is not lying to you.
And the praise of someone who isn't lying to you has value beyond every other questionable voice.

--

Obviously, just slamming someone with their flaws every time you open your mouth is idiocy.
And I would even argue that compassion is more important than critique, if we were to be as literal and detailed as possible.

A human being slathered in nothing but compassion is less equipped towards improvement, but they are stable and healthy.
A human being subjected to nothing but critique will climb higher quickly for a short period of time but will eventually collapse back on themselves and become... Essentially worthless.

But someone who can, without anger or desire of vengeance.
Present someone their flaws out of Love.
Is so rare.

My Master serves up 85% or so critique with about 15% praise.
These numbers vary depending on my personal levels of success but only within a 5% or so fluctuation.
Once something praise-worthy becomes elementary, it no longer merits praise and the bar raises.
Impressing leads to expectation, the very thing I hear so many employees complain about.
It isn't a happy, comfortable place that makes me feel like the most beautiful, talented Slave in the world.

But it is the place that I believe could make that the Truth.
Because the progress you make when you can't escape your flaws is powerful.

And when he says, 'You look beautiful', I cannot deny it.
When he says, 'This is excellent', I cannot deny it.

I can go out to the City and hear, 'You look beautiful' all day long.
I can go to meetings and hear clients and vendors exclaim how organized and on-top of things I always am.
But in a world where we thrive on making other people like us, where we are always saying the things people want to hear.
Why would I ever trust any of those opinions?

Why would I trust anything beyond my own understanding.
And the words of someone who has proven to me that they are objective and honest, always.

--

o The greater kindness is critique and honesty.

o I do believe that a dominant and submissive must agree on the importance of critique/objectiveness versus compassion. Otherwise, the dominant may end up frustrated (at a submissive who cannot handle critique) or confused (at a submissive who isn't as grateful for compassion) and the submissive may end up emotionally compromised (as they are unable to handle critique) or feeling as if they are not being respected/push/developed (as they are not being shown their flaws/faults.)

o I don't separate my 'BDSM' views from my world views. Human interaction, leadership, and servitude are the same, no matter where you go.



Doomkittie -> RE: The Greater Kindness (1/3/2013 10:19:03 PM)

See, my praise at work is justified, when I have totally stuffed something up the consequences are immediate, and a bit scary. I am back in the work place after a 10 year break. I see the praise I receive as honest and I don't bask, I use it to keep me on tack and looking for ways to improve my performance.

As a child nothing was ever enough, I did my best and went further than necessary not for praise but to avoid the disappointment. No master could ever push that hard because I push myself, I push myself for my master and to stop him veering having to be disappointed in me. So now when I do get praised it means the world to me but I do not seek it out.

And yes, that show is tv, but we see someone just reacting in one way and other people filling the other role. In my life, I want my boss and my master to have the same operating manner, high expectations, praise when deserved and immediate action when I am in the wrong.

DK



Exidor -> RE: The Greater Kindness (1/4/2013 4:38:44 AM)

quote:

What struck me was that this "pushing" was perhaps portrayed in too negative a light. The coach was painted as the "bad guy" (and, in all fairness, maybe she truly was), but the fact remains that those girls were as good as they were because their coach pushed so hard.


I had some teachers like that in school. I just put my pencil down and took an "F". I've had some employers do it. I did the absolute minimum I could get away with without being fired, until I found a new job.

I don't give any shit to people. And, within practical limits, I don't take any shit either.


Over the years, I've managed to get a few of those people fired. It was a good feeling, even if they probably never understood that they got fired for being assholes.



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: The Greater Kindness (1/4/2013 5:04:46 AM)

I have incredibly high standards and it's understood by those in my family that I expect them to have incredibly high standards as well. From an early age I instilled this in my children, not just to uphold the standards I set for them (though for a time they did have to do that) but to define their own.

Yes at times I pushed, but you can push with kindness and compassion. And you *should* tailor your standards to the individual-- to what you know they can do and where they are at emotionally. During the teen years, maturity levels tend to fluctuate.

I suppose I do the same with a submissive, I spend time to find out who they are, what their standards are, what they want to achieve as a person, and then help them to accomplish that.

For lamb we are working on various behaviors modifications: be less of a workaholic, learn to stop and smell the roses more often, work on ways to incorporate exercise in your daily routine, and a new one we just started, stop biting your nails. (This man is a busy executive with a stressful job, and a busy and often stressful home life.)

He's been biting his nails his entire life, and does it even more when he is stressed. According to him he's very oral, so putting his fingers to his mouth when he needs something to do with his hands just comes natural.

We both realize that changing the habits of a lifetime is not going to be easy. This is how I asked him to start: Buy a tube of good quality hand cream, and every time he's aware of having his hands in his mouth, apply the cream. (He doesn't like the taste, so it's a natural deterrent.) While he is doing that, he is to imagine himself a non-nail biter. That's it. No pushing at all.

We will talk about things before I determine it needs to be brought up to another level. Eventually it's going to have to mean imagining *MY* disappointment that he is still biting his nails. But we are most like months and possibly years away from that.

Now, I could push him on this, but that would cause him so much distress, I would have to ask myself what my real goals are.

Do I want a sub who has overcome a difficult habit to break, or do I want an angry, emotional mess?



theRose4U -> RE: The Greater Kindness (1/4/2013 2:36:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
I was the same way with my daughter although with her I was more the compassionate type simply because anytime you try to push her she breaks down in a nervous meltdown with tears and craziness everywhere.

But had she not been that way I would have pushed her more which I tried to always do with her but she's just a very sensitive type gal


Why do you think this is? I consider myself a sensitive person , was pushed HARD. & breakdowns don't understand



Kana -> RE: The Greater Kindness (1/4/2013 2:56:12 PM)

I've hated pretty much every one of the best teachers I've ever had.
Why?
Because they challenged me, pushed me, made me reach beyond what I could and transcend my inner fears and self doubt.
And in the end, they are the ones I'm most grateful for, and to.
They've made me a better man, a humbler man, one who has a much greater and broader world than that I brought to them.
And I've learned. Over the years, I've learned to learn.
Which may be the biggest gift of all.

Now there's lines. I don't play stupid power games. I don't play into bullshit ego trips.
Once, after I went back to college, I had this idiot Prof stand up front and boast, "I don't give a's."
Now, I'm 34, been locked up, homeless, declared dead, shot at, stabbed, lit on fire. I've been to hell, lived there for a few years,took part in all the wars then found my way back.
I'm riding academic scholarships through the U, hoping to manage to work my into into a free ride to law/grad school.
So grades count to me, and I've been through way to much shit in my life to sit there, waste my time and eat his crap.
So I stand up, I'm splitting. Outta there.
When he asks me all challenging like, "Where do you think you're going?"
And I let him have it, point blank, in front of the whole class.
Told him what I think of people who play power trips on innocent victims. Reminded him that I was a paying customer and that he had one job-educate me, and that it was on him to do so. Because, you know-I'm the consumer-the guy who pays his check. Asked what kind of man get his kicks pushing around helpless kids. Made damn clear I was too old, and didn't have the time to spare to spend hours dealing with his ridiculous out of control inner child and I wasn't gonna waste one more second of my life on his worthless puerile sick, twisted, and pathetic games.
Yeah, I got a standing O when I left.
Needless to say, I was an instant legend, both with students and faculty.

So there's limitations on what I'll take, but yeah, if I think the person genuinely has my best interests at heart, that I can gain from the affiliation, I'll probably stick with it.
Course, I also expects that they are gonna give me the tools to succeed-that's part of the package.



littlewonder -> RE: The Greater Kindness (1/4/2013 2:57:40 PM)

My daughter was emotionally unstable since a very young age. She has anxiety and depression issues. I give fault to the fact that her father, my husband passed away when she was 3, which of course, caused me to be a zombie for about 5 years and it was incredibly difficult for me to raise her on my own. Plus both depression and anxiety runs in my family and her dad was adhd.

So yeah...all that combined, it would make any child turn out that way imo. Anything that pushes her or is new, scares the hell out of her. About a year ago she had to go and take a certification test for her work. She drove there and then after the test she went to get in her car and there was a car blocking her in. Instead of going into the place and finding out who it belonged to, she called me and cried her eyes out and just could not deal with it. I had to calm her down on the phone and she would not let me off the phone until the guy came out and drove away. She sat in her car the entire time and waited. She can get like this sometimes. It's something I've always had to deal with with her. It's why I'm always checking up on her.



OsideGirl -> RE: The Greater Kindness (1/4/2013 3:03:34 PM)

I started showing horses at a young age. By age 15, I was being paid to show other people's horses.

I really do appreciate that my father pushed me, but to this day I still resent how critical he is. It reached a point where I demanded that he not be on the rail when I was in the show ring because he would yell at me when I went by. I actually had my best shows after that and qualified for Nationals three years in a row. Being pushed is one thing. Constantly tearing someone down is another.



littlewonder -> RE: The Greater Kindness (1/4/2013 3:15:23 PM)

I always wished my parents would have pushed me. They were alcoholics though and barely spent time with me let alone push me. I do, however, have a brother who is old enough to be my dad and was like a dad to me when I was growing up. I always looked up to him, spent all my time with him and all that. He was always asking me about my grades in school and test me on all kinds of stuff and get upset with me if my grades fell or I didn't know certain information. He was the only one who ever pushed me to do things other than myself. Unfortunately that all ended though when he realized I was not his "little sister" anymore and I was an adult sister with a husband and a baby.

But I do have Master who pushes me. Most of the time I'm glad for it but sometimes it just annoys me but after all the work I know it was good for me and I'm grateful for that. If it wasn't for him there's no way I would be finishing up my associates degree this summer and going off to get my bachelors. He has taught me to not give up and that it's worth it and possible.



seekingreality -> RE: The Greater Kindness (1/4/2013 5:11:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

I caught a snippet of that show "Dance Moms" the other day. It's the one with the girls' dance team and the agro coach. In this episode, the lead dancer (who was like 14) had to dance with a painful injury, and one of the other girls was in danger of being kicked off the team because her performance affected the team's placement. After their performance, the coach came in and took each girl to task for every mistake she'd made, when it was obvious what they really wanted was to be told they'd done a good job. (Which they did.) I realize the show is designed to get viewers pissed off at the coach's abrasive behavior, but it got me thinking about the value of pushing people to excel versus being tolerant and compassionate.

What struck me was that this "pushing" was perhaps portrayed in too negative a light. The coach was painted as the "bad guy" (and, in all fairness, maybe she truly was), but the fact remains that those girls were as good as they were because their coach pushed so hard. Moreover, none of the girls seemed traumatized by this "pushing". They seemed to take it in stride, at least from what I could see, from the one episode. Furthermore, they all had their moms there to tell them how they were great and did a good job. So on the one hand they had tolerance and compassion while, on the other, they had objectivity and the push to excel. So, which is the greater kindness?

Now, no one demonstrates one trait or the other exclusively, but I think it's fair to say most people tend towards compassion or objectivity. I wondered how this might affect their BDSM relationships. How does the dominant who favors compassion structure their dynamic differently than the dominant who favors the "push"? How do the submissive's views fit in? Must a successful dynamic consist of people who both favor "the push" over compassion, or who both favor compassion over "the push"? Or do opposites attract?

Did you learn these values from your parents? Do you value "the push" because they did? Do you perhaps value compassion because they pushed too hard? Is the value you tend towards in your BDSM relationships (i.e. objectivity or compassion) the same as the one you tend towards in vanilla life? Or does your BDSM role require that you adopt a very different "self"? Which value would you choose to pass on to your children? Obviously everyone is sometimes kind and sometimes driven, but I'm asking you to reflect on which you are the most often. Chances are, one of those two traits characterizes you more than the other.

Which of the two do you think is more important? Which do you think is more difficult?

Thanks in advance for your responses.

Pam









I wouldn't look to reality shows as models of human behavior. I know tons of people who work on these shows and they're highly fabricated, with situations that are set up and edited to create some usually artificial drama.

In terms of values, they can come -- good and bad -- from everywhere.

Overall, I find in this post you are going for too many sweeping generalizations and black-and-white views.

The notion that pushing someone has to be inherently separate from compassion is a strange one for me. The notion that you can't be driven and kind doesn't resonate with me. You seem to take the position that the only two choices are to be tough bastards or whimpy huggers. That isn't true at all.

A good coach realizes that people are different, and the motivations and approaches that work for them are different.



DesFIP -> RE: The Greater Kindness (1/4/2013 8:58:07 PM)

I never pushed my daughter. She was driven to compete. I held horses, shoveled up after them etc but if she was competing it was because she wanted to. Had she just wanted to take trail rides that would have been just as good for me.

There's a difference between being there and pushing. I've always been here for her and always will. I attended damn near every basketball game my son played in for eight years. And I still don't understand the sport. But I don't have to share his love for it, to want to support him.



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