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do You believe in breaking? - 11/7/2004 6:18:33 PM

liljoy

Posts: 577
Joined: 3/25/2004
Status: offline

This is part of a profile i saw when i logged in
"I will break you down physically, emotionally and psychologically and then build you back up in the way I see fit until I feel you a worthy of becoming my
slave."
This is something i've never understood. my tow basic questions are
1)why hand pick someone if You plan on breaking everything that makes the person what they are?
2) How can You be sure that once You've fully broken someone, You'll be able to build them back into anything?
Please help me understand

Post #: 1

RE: do You believe in breaking? - 11/7/2004 6:34:39 PM

MistressFire70

Posts: 378
Joined: 7/25/2004
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

My first thought when I read this? RUN! Run far, far away!

I’m not sure that there’s anything TO understand. I think they want a horse, not a person.

Remember, just because someone says this is what they want, YOU do not have to be the one to give it to them.

Fire

_____________________________

you have come to a great chasm. Jump. It's not as wide as you think.

(in reply to liljoy)

Post #: 2

RE: do You believe in breaking? - 11/7/2004 7:13:24 PM

LadyShoshin

Posts: 492
Joined: 7/19/2004
From: Burlington, Ontario
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: liljoy

This is part of a profile i saw when i logged in
"I will break you down physically, emotionally and psychologically and then build you back up in the way I see fit until I feel you a worthy of becoming my
slave."
This is something i've never understood. my tow basic questions are
1)why hand pick someone if You plan on breaking everything that makes the person what they are?
2) How can You be sure that once You've fully broken someone, You'll be able to build them back into anything?
Please help me understand

I agree with MistressFire, this is a huge sign saying run away NOW!

In the old European houses, I believe breaking a slave was common, if you are looking for a mindless automoton, there are excellent substitutes nowadays. Someone who wants to do this has to realize the responsibility they are taking on, they will have to micromanage every moment of the slave's time, make even the smallest decision for them.

Knowing what we now know about the complexities of the human psyche, breaking is easy, rebuilding is hard, and may be impossible. What about the slaves who don't meet the Dom/me's standards once the work is done? Are they cut loose to fend for themselves? If you have seen the movie "The Island of Doctor Morrow", you will get an idea of the consequences of screwing with a person's inner self.

_____________________________

PHLOX: “It’s unethical for a doctor to cause harm...I can inflict as much pain as I like.”

(in reply to liljoy)

Post #: 3

RE: do You believe in breaking? - 11/7/2004 7:42:28 PM

perverseangelic

Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline

I have never understood why one would want to break a submissive person.

Break bad habits, sure. Break them of insecurities, sure. But break -them-? It's taken me a long time to become who I am, and I am proud of that person. That I have surrendered that whole person to my partner means says something about my trust in him, and in his care for me.

I don't see why one would need to "break" someone who already -craves- to serve you. It seems counter productive.

Heh. I read this to my partner and he said "I don't break my toys because then they're not as much fun to play with."

:)

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to liljoy)

Post #: 4

RE: do You believe in breaking? - 11/7/2004 8:48:20 PM

MrThorns

Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline

(Ponders this one for awhile...)

The first thing that comes to mind when hearing about this is along the same lines as the thoughts of the previos posters. "Run."

But after a bit of reflection upon my own training experiences and my relationship with my slave, I would have to say that I actually agree with the concept of "breaking". I think about my first experiences in the military. My first exposure to Army life was that of a Drill Sergeant throwing me from the back of a truck. I had no idea of what a soldier was. I had no concept of how to be what my Drills wanted me to be on day one. I learned by being broken down to the very core of my being and rebuilt in accordance with the appropriate Field Manuals. Should I have run? The Army didn't remove my personality. I am, in many ways, the same man I was 12 years ago. What they did do was break me down enough...just through the garbage I had been carrying around with me..and replaced garbage with confidence and a sense of duty/responsibility.

In my relationship with my slave, we had a similiar experience, although I must admit that we stumbled upon her slavery together. We had played extremely hard, harder than we ever had at that point, and in the morning she glowed. She glowed because she had come to realize her slave self. The scene had torn through some outer shell that had been getting in the way of her self-realization. She had been "broken down" so to speak.

So, to answer your question... I don't see "breaking" as removal of the personality that makes up a person. I see it more as breaking through the armor that we create for ourselves in dealing with day to day life. It allows us to delve deeper into ourselves without our usual distractions. As far as any advice I could offer should you be interested in someone who wants to break you...well, I won't say, "run". But I will say to be very, very cautious.

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to liljoy)

Post #: 5

RE: do You believe in breaking? - 11/7/2004 8:48:42 PM

MaitresseEden

Posts: 477
Joined: 8/8/2004
From: Houston, Texas
Status: offline

If you break your toys then you won't have them to play with.

nuff said.

Ms. Eden

_____________________________

"If I didnt define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other peoples fantasies for me and eaten alive. - Audre Lorde"

(in reply to perverseangelic)

Post #: 6

RE: do You believe in breaking? - 11/7/2004 9:24:51 PM

Suleiman

Posts: 1127
Joined: 9/9/2004
Status: offline

"breaking" or indoctrination as part of establishing a long-term relationship has its place, especially among the old guard, but 99% of the time, those who loudly proclaim that this is the sort of scene they are looking for don't know how to do it. RUN! More often than not these are dangerous predatory people, on the verge of, if not fully immersed in, a sociopathic and/or psychopathic disorder.

Some bottoms want to be broken, by the way. There are places to seek out that sort of training. However, answering a want-ad placed by an anonymous someone without references is not the way to do it.

_____________________________

Think of my verbosity as a sort of litmus test for our relationship. I write in a manner identical to how I speak and how I think. If you can not cope with what I have written here, it is probably for the best if we go our separate ways.

(in reply to liljoy)

Post #: 7

RE: do You believe in breaking? - 11/7/2004 9:36:46 PM

liljoy

Posts: 577
Joined: 3/25/2004
Status: offline

i see most of you view it the way i do.

MrThorns,
TY for Your input. i wondered if i was maybe taking the words too literally or perhaps picturing it worse than it is. i too think that if a friend was looking for a Dom/me and the Dom/me spoke of breaking. i'd warn caution and certainly recomend that they ask tons of questions about what breaking means to the Dom/me

(in reply to MaitresseEden)

Post #: 8

RE: do You believe in breaking? - 11/8/2004 4:53:00 AM

subbiejenn

Posts: 631
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline

i have to agree with the "RUN, Run, run!"

i believe i have seen this profile before, to a point i can almost understand this but the way it is written it's not good. I agree with Thorns in "breaking" can be a good thing but if this profile meant it in a good way He needed to explain it better.

I have always been if i am not sure "RUN" is the best thing to do! Safety first!!

You can ask several Dom in which i talked to some and if i ever question anything or have a doubt it is over for me. i politely tell them it's been nice but it isn't going to work, thank You. i even got a e-mail from a Dom i had been talking to "after a misunderstanding" (which is a long story but basically was because He gave me His wrong e-mail adress and He didn't get my e-mail) that was so rude, called me 1000 names and degraded me in every possible way. Of course i wrote to Him what i thought about it and to never write me again (it was temper i saw and hate) then He tried to explain it by saying He thought i would like verbal humiliation in which i laughed because even if i did want verbal humiliation i sure don't want it from someone i haven't submitted too. This was a sign to me He was dangerous and i don't care if maybe He isn't or maybe He was trying to turn me on with verbal humiliation but it doesn't matter, He made me nervous so it was OVER!

It is to early and i don't know if i explained this good *grins* but i wouldn't even attempt e-mailing this guy and asking for a explanation. Sounds dangerous to me

You can never be to careful!!

Be well
JMO
~jenn~

_____________________________

~Subspace is my perfect paradise vacation from busy-mind... blessed be to the Dominant who can stamp my ticket there.~

"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away"

(in reply to liljoy)

Post #: 9

RE: do You believe in breaking? - 11/8/2004 9:04:13 AM

happypervert

Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline

The comparison to the military is interesting. However, the military does it with specific objectives in mind, and the drill instructors are trained to do it in a methodical manner. Amateurs, however, break their companions down all the time -- you can often see the results in a battered women's shelter.

So I dunno if you run, laugh, or just shake your head and pity someone who writes such stuff. Though the metamorphasis offered may appeal to some, they could be putting themselves in the hands of some clown who just wrote that because he thought it sounded domly.

< Message edited by happypervert -- 11/8/2004 9:05:31 AM >

_____________________________

"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live." . . . Mark Twain

(in reply to MrThorns)

Post #: 10

RE: do You believe in breaking? - 11/8/2004 10:35:54 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

NO - Never. It would be my goal to build on the foundation the the submissive brought to the relationship.

Failure of many relationships is caused by a person "loving" their future parnter, entering into a realationship with the hope of changing what they don't like.

(in reply to liljoy)

Post #: 11

RE: do You believe in breaking? - 11/8/2004 11:58:52 AM

MistressFire70

Posts: 378
Joined: 7/25/2004
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

Thorns,

Hmmm…very good words for thought. I supposed it all comes down to a definition of “breaking”. I’d say what your DS did for you was to strip away all that wasn’t a soldier, then help you replace it with what was appropriate. Even so, either concept is very, very delicate. And knowing how to do it without damage is walking a very, very thin line.

In the end, when we mold those to us, we are, in essence, creating the person we want. It can be done lovingly with correction or through intimidation with abuse. To declare you’re out to break someone, I think, certainly gives the impression of the later. Even in the military, I don’t think (I could be wrong) they refer to basic training as “breaking”. Now, the term “breaking in” might be used, but that has a whole different connotation.

But, these are just my opinions.

Fire

_____________________________

you have come to a great chasm. Jump. It's not as wide as you think.

(in reply to MrThorns)

Post #: 12

RE: do You believe in breaking? - 11/8/2004 12:09:26 PM

MrThorns

Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline

Ms Fire,

Exactly. "...strip away all that wasn't a soldier..." is a very accurate way to look at it. I believe it to be the same in that a dominant may strip away all that isn't a slave.

Hopefully you all understand that I cringe whenever I read something in a profile about breaking a slave, having no limits, or the like. I think that the way I view training in this manner to be far different than how others may see it. There are plenty of harmful, abusive and sociopathic people out there who hide behind a BDSM guise... which is why I strongly encourage caution. Know the people you intend to get involved with before putting yourself in a compromising position.

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to MistressFire70)

Post #: 13

RE: do You believe in breaking? - 11/8/2004 3:48:16 PM

Nvernilla

Posts: 303
Joined: 10/1/2004
Status: offline

Just because someone is willing to give you their submission doesn't mean they give up their right to humanity. How will this person build someone back? I mean is this Freud or Jung doing all this breaking and rebuilding? If a woman lets me walk on her she is out the door too...I like submission from a woman but I like her to be spunky so I can feel I've accomplished something when she gives me her submission...Mykal

(in reply to liljoy)

Post #: 14

RE: do You believe in breaking? - 11/20/2004 1:37:39 PM

SunnyTawse

Posts: 151
Joined: 11/17/2004
Status: offline

Ludicrous. It means RUN.

This dominant is either lying, inexperienced, egocentric, or seriously ill... possibly all four.

I not only don't want to break my submissive, I don't want a doormat, either. I want a tall, strong, proud man who will voluntarily kneel down and kiss my foot. I want my submissive to have a LOT of power to exchange.

Sunny Tawse
Sadien Domina

If that's what you want, Mazel
Tov and more power to you.
-- netzach

(in reply to liljoy)

Post #: 15

RE: do You believe in breaking? - 11/20/2004 2:00:47 PM

INSIDEYOURMIND

Posts: 483
Status: offline

In vanilla relationships, we meet someone, and fall for who and what they are, and then we spend all this time trying to change them into someone else, only to find we don't like them anymore because they changed.
I understand breaking a slave of a bad habit, but to just break them to show who is the stronger person, is closer to abuse than to BDSM.
So, the advice to run is the best, and remember, you don't have to run the fastest, just faster then the next sub or slave.

< Message edited by INSIDEYOURMIND -- 11/20/2004 2:07:12 PM >

_____________________________

If I got smart with you.................
How would you know?

(in reply to SunnyTawse)

Post #: 16

RE: do You believe in breaking? - 11/20/2004 3:03:56 PM

MommynDaddy

Posts: 6
Joined: 5/7/2004
From: Northern California
Status: offline

Hello everybody, what an intriguing discussion here. I am of two minds on this subject: The first is that, of course, any relationship implies a give and a take. Several responses have indicated an understanding of the exchange that is neccessary for positive relationships to develop including mutual respect and a consensus on values, ideals and beliefs. The second has to do with the nature of a BD/SM relationship in general and the role of the Dominant partner towards that of the submissive partner in which those values vary considerably among individuals and are driven as much by fantasy as by reality.
There is at least a primary division between individuals who post and correspond on these websites, those who have a fantasy and those who live a reality no matter how circumscribed by the general affairs of daily life. Among the former there is a kind of willy-nilly use of phrases and acronyms in an attempt to build some kind of ethos. "YOU WILL SUBMIT, I WILL BREAK YOU..etc etc" all speak of an individual who may have a powerful fantasy life and not know how to bring his fantasy into reality. Unfortunately he will not likely learn how unless he is taught.
As to the nature of "breaking" somebody an excellent correlation was made to the crude tactics employed by the military. The effectiveness of the military model is powerful for about 30% of the people who go through it (in terms of enabling people to actually kill that is). Where the effectiveness is greates is in terms of reorganizing identity, in that regard the emotional and physical abuse engaged in in boot camp succeeds in permanently stamping in the title of "soldier", "Marine" etc etc. And here is where a broad understanding of modern psychology is indespensible.
For some this process of the stripping away of identity is exactly what they need in order to become whole. For may the label of son or daughter, wife or brother bears some stigma. Other labels do as well as we go through life and experience trauma and conflict our role as an attorney or an American even can become sources of pain and confusion. "Breaking" then would mean the process of stripping away all but the barest identity as that of being a human being, and then finally removing even that label from the subject No names or labels now apply to the individual and in that state they are truly at rock bottom. It is in this place where some individuals can undergo a transformative, even a transpersonal, experience that frees them to become far more than they ever could have become before. The rebuilding of identity after this is accomplished not through means of brutality and coersion but rather through positive and loving support and nurturance of qualities, abilities and skills that the subject can undertake to learn for the benfit of themselves and their partner. But the process is a long one and mirrors the reality of transformation in human life, like an alchoholic who must bottom out before change can occur.
I only give this sketch as an illustration of the process of transformation and how the word "breaking" refers, however ignorantly, to a deep and miraculous possibility within the realm of the erotic. I frequently asked my last slave to write a journal in "Themes and Practices in Erotic Transcendence" but to spite her intelligence and other fine qualities she lacked a certain J'ena sais quoi (awful french, sorry) that would encourage me to propose such a structured experience for her development.
So in the end yes "breaking" can be considered a valid activity but only with the rarest of individuals. In general I think that this was simply a lonely man with a tremendous fantasy life that tormented him beyond belief and caused his desperate and ineffective use of harsh language. It is interesting to note, well it is to me at any rate, that many subs possess passive-aggrssive tendencies, that is they appear to be what they say they are yet they attempt to sabotage their relationships and cause pain to those around them in sneaky and underhanded ways. Many Doms likewise seem to be the inverse, aggressive-passives where they appear to be all bluster and authority yet beneath that there is a soft and chewy center that really is acting out buried fantsies of submission through a proxy. Food for thought, yum. pardon the length of this post)
-L.

(in reply to INSIDEYOURMIND)

Post #: 17

RE: do You believe in breaking? - 11/20/2004 3:56:07 PM

LadySonelle

Posts: 280
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: Santa Fe NM
Status: offline

Only very LIMITED breakage, and within a narrowly proscribed area, is appropriate in a Mistress/slave context.

I view breaking as a form of violence in the wrong hands and a form of psychological plastic surgery in the right hands. Just as the bones of the nose and face, or limbs, when set or formed incorrectly, must be sawn or broken, so must some flaws in a slave's psyche, if they damage the functionality of the slave... HOWEVER, this is NOT a task done lightly or by an amateur! It must also be done with the consent, or at least, the forewarning of the slave!

In our 20 years together, only twice have I had to 'break' a component of My beloved First Servitor's psyche. In both instances it was due to damage done to her in childhood which impaired her ability to cope with adverse situations. Unattractive to Me did not matter... damage to *her* DID! Emotional violence can be horribly damaging and it takes an expert to do it. I am not an expert. She and I were incredibly lucky and it was as much a testament to her own innate intelligence and ability to trust, as to My own skills, that she came through a better person.

Breaking is a thing that is downright DANGEROUS and the only thing which should precipitate such a course is the certain knowledge that things will be worse *without* breakage than with.

After the breaking, then what? The Dominant must be prepared not only to break the psyche, the body, the slave, but to *splint* the damage fully until it is healed! When you remove the slave's own will, it MUST be replaced with something, preferably your own will, until the slave is able to rise again, straighter and stronger. The human being who is able to function for both partners, the slave and hirself, for the time required is rare indeed! Should the trust falter during the breaking process, the fracturing is jagged, uneven and potentially deadly. Only the strongest and steadiest should attempt breaking and only the stupidest take it as anything less than life-or-death seriously.

Lady Sonelle

< Message edited by LadySonelle -- 11/20/2004 4:05:26 PM >

(in reply to liljoy)

Post #: 18

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