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RE: Is it any wonder... - 1/8/2013 8:24:47 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		There is no topic.   We are in fantasy land here, let's jail every republican, and it will be voluntary until they pay off the debt....................

Wow, that solves the problem right there, let's discuss........

I mean we even have a precedent, Lincoln jailing the Maryland legislature.   It would be far more effective than the shit fuzznuts there came up with. 

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: Is it any wonder... - 1/8/2013 8:43:21 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
What's amazing is that there are a few who do understand the topic and are quite capable of discussing it without the need to go into the cosmos to do it.

I'd have a bit more sympathy for this particular whine if every attempt I've made to discuss the topic hadn't led to you shrieking about unemployment being offtopic when Welfare's being discussed.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: Is it any wonder... - 1/8/2013 9:19:57 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00


~FR~

I've only read the first couple of pages of this thread, so apologize if this has been addressed but...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

And frankly, people are entitled to spend their money on whatever the hell they want to, however it was attained: can you imagine the shitfit you'd be throwing if some mouthy liberal had suggested that people shouldn't be allowed to buy booze if they own a gun? Given your own aversion to nanny stating, the hypocrisy in your OP is breathtaking.


It's not their money, it's the taxpayers. The rest is pure noise.




When Wall St bankers gave themselves bonuses from the taxpayer money during the bail outs, they were spending taxpayer money without the consent or even the consideration of how they got their money. Take it one step further to corporate welfare.

All these proposals to take rights away from the poor in exchange for helping out the poor, when billion dollar corporations gets their handouts, and continue to do as they please, leaves me with little sympathy for your cause.




Those are two different topics no matter the relationship one can glean about them; government handouts. Both are deserving of being discussed but such does not require they be discussed together.

If you want to discuss corporate welfare, make a thread. If you want to talk about unemployment and its effects on welfare, make a thread. If you want to discuss welfare, as applied to people, from the point of how it's applied lets have at it.

But the simple fact is that, for example, outsourcing's effects on employment which may increase the welfare rolls is of no value in discussing whether recipients should be provided steak, or put another way, just how the taxpayer dollars should be allowed to be used by recipients.



_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Louve00)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Is it any wonder... - 1/8/2013 9:24:22 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		But that is not the topic, and it says so in your original post.

The topic is:

Is it any wonder...

And no, it isn't.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 1/8/2013 9:27:31 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Is it any wonder... - 1/8/2013 9:59:37 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
Those are two different topics no matter the relationship one can glean about them; government handouts. Both are deserving of being discussed but such does not require they be discussed together.

Provide a coherent explanation of how the two differ, besides the unemployed being an easier target and costing the taxpayer far less.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Is it any wonder... - 1/8/2013 11:16:44 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
Those are two different topics no matter the relationship one can glean about them; government handouts. Both are deserving of being discussed but such does not require they be discussed together.

Provide a coherent explanation of how the two differ, besides the unemployed being an easier target and costing the taxpayer far less.



Is there something here you do not understand?

But the simple fact is that, for example, outsourcing's effects on employment which may increase the welfare rolls is of no value in discussing whether recipients should be provided steak, or put another way, just how the taxpayer dollars should be allowed to be used by recipients.

How the two differ is explicit in the above. Your failure to comprehend is no failure of mine to explain.


Now, if you can show that some relationship exists between, for example, outsourcing's effects on employment which may increase the welfare rolls and whether welfare should be used to provide, for example, steak or perhaps 42" HDTV sets on the taxpayer's dime, please do. I'm all eyes.

It doesn't matter whether it's outsourcing, corporate welfare, whatever. Please show the relationship that exists to welfare providing, steak.

< Message edited by Yachtie -- 1/8/2013 11:21:16 AM >

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Is it any wonder... - 1/8/2013 11:18:00 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		But the simple fact is that, for example, outsourcing's effects on employment which may increase the welfare rolls is of no value in discussing whether recipients should be provided steak, or put another way, just how the taxpayer dollars should be allowed to be used by recipients.

----------------------------------

Steak has not been credibly and sufficiently demonstrated.   Farsical argumentation, so far.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Is it any wonder... - 1/8/2013 11:23:49 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

But the simple fact is that, for example, outsourcing's effects on employment which may increase the welfare rolls is of no value in discussing whether recipients should be provided steak, or put another way, just how the taxpayer dollars should be allowed to be used by recipients.

----------------------------------

Steak has not been credibly and sufficiently demonstrated.   Farsical argumentation, so far.



Bull shit. There was an article just a few days ago about people using welfare dollars to purchase from within the sex industry. That's a topic we've even discussed in other threads before. Your bullshit form of argumentation is showing.

Bite me.

http://OLYMPIA --State lawmakers are proposing new restrictions on where welfare recipients can spend their taxpayer funded cash. This follows a KING 5 investigation that uncovered millions of tax dollars withdrawn at local casinos. Now, lawmakers are setting their sights on other “adults only” businesses.

< Message edited by Yachtie -- 1/8/2013 11:32:23 AM >

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Is it any wonder... - 1/8/2013 11:37:07 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Uh, the sex industry is not steak, casinos are not sex.   Lets cut the hysteria and the hyperbole down to maniac-depressiveness.

You dont need to wonder, you are not on topic, the topic is not steak, it is not sex  it is about some 21 year old unconstitutional rant on some dumbass blog.

And your link doesn't work.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 1/8/2013 12:04:01 PM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Is it any wonder... - 1/8/2013 11:40:40 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
I'd say the author is pointing out that people on such public assistance are not entitled to top shelf living. Like using such funds to buy cigarettes.

And right there we see the core difference between you and I. You are viewing this as some sort of entitlement.... a gift those of us with money give to those without... and one we want to avoid entirely if possible or else minimize. IN other words, you are viewing the problem entirely through subjective and emotional lenses.

I, on the other hand, don't give a rat's ass what they are "entitled" to. What I care about is getting a non-productive member of society to a place where they become productive. In other words, I'm interested in managing a society not rewarding/punishing individuals. So I think these people are entitled to nothing. I think there are certain things I'd need to do (assuming I became emporer) in order to achieve my goal of maximizing productivity across the society.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Is it any wonder... - 1/8/2013 11:57:03 AM   
Aedonix


Posts: 82
Joined: 8/26/2011
From: the UK
Status: offline 		So steak is not an allowable part of the diet of the unemployed. Beans and rice is all they shall have.. So.. you are advocating a very unbalanced diet which will result in these people lacking in various vitamins and minerals which in turn will mean they have to spend more time at the doctors hence making more of a strain on medecaid etc.

but then your criteria for medicade would surely also say "You may only have aid if you can prove you are TRYING to lead a healthy lifestyle, i.e. no booze, drugs etc.

See how they exasperate one another? Problem with blindly following a 21 year old is this.

Most of em lack the life experience to actually be able to think in a reasonable manner. (if at all)


_____________________________

if you would learn how to live, do not ask the question; its answer is not in the question but in the answer, which is not in words; do not ask how to live, but, instead, proceed to do so.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Is it any wonder... - 1/8/2013 12:14:31 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aedonix

So steak is not an allowable part of the diet of the unemployed. Beans and rice is all they shall have.. So.. you are advocating a very unbalanced diet which will result in these people lacking in various vitamins and minerals which in turn will mean they have to spend more time at the doctors hence making more of a strain on medecaid etc.



Sorry, this arguement just doesn't work.  People are not eating a balanced meal NOW.  Rice, beans, cheese, potatoes, milk, and a bottle of multi-vitamins would actually cover everything.  Boring, but you could live off of it. 

Honestly, my biggest issue with food stamps is that people do not know how to cook anymore without a box mix.  A families food stamps would go much further if people could stop buying packaged crap because they no knowledge on how to prepare anything else.  It would be healthier and tastier as well.  (Cake mixes are the only exception that I can think of off the top of my head.)

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Aedonix)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Is it any wonder... - 1/8/2013 12:15:18 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
But the simple fact is that, for example, outsourcing's effects on employment which may increase the welfare rolls is of no value in discussing whether recipients should be provided steak, or put another way, just how the taxpayer dollars should be allowed to be used by recipients.

Why do they need to use their government handouts constructively when there are no fucking jobs for them to spend it on pursuing?
I appreciate that you're far happier with the idea of punishing the unemployed than taking any action against those who have doomed them to a lifetime of scrounging and government handouts, but is that really all you can come out with to justify the drivel you're spouting like the arse of a bull with food poisoning?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Is it any wonder... - 1/8/2013 12:27:12 PM   
Aedonix


Posts: 82
Joined: 8/26/2011
From: the UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
 

Honestly, my biggest issue with food stamps is that people do not know how to cook anymore without a box mix.  A families food stamps would go much further if people could stop buying packaged crap because they no knowledge on how to prepare anything else.  It would be healthier and tastier as well.  (Cake mixes are the only exception that I can think of off the top of my head.)


On the nose!. and you would honestly think that WOULDN'T be the case with the sheer number of cooking shows on the TV, but people simply choose not to learn, instead watching them as entertainment.

Having said that though, one thing i have noticed over here in the UK is that for the most part. buying the amount of fresh food required to make even a simple dish like Spaghetti and Meatballs ends up costing WAY more than it does to buy the "Fresh from the freezer" version (which is so full of additives and preservatives and other crap it is not even funny). Now.. The system over here is set up in such a way that once you have the misfortune to end up on benefits (and all of the secondary benefits such as help with rent, free eye and dentistry etc) that to find work where your income MATCHES the level you recieve on benefit and you can afford to pay for the rent, the medical stuff etc is very difficult to do. This system actually DISCOURAGES you from re-joining the work place unless you can find one of the rare jobs that pays reasonably well. But I digress.

On those sort of incomes the only REAL option IS the processed crap, so the art of real cooking gets forgotten, not because no-one wants to do it, but because it is far more cost effective NOT to do it.


_____________________________

if you would learn how to live, do not ask the question; its answer is not in the question but in the answer, which is not in words; do not ask how to live, but, instead, proceed to do so.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Is it any wonder... - 1/8/2013 12:34:43 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aedonix
On those sort of incomes the only REAL option IS the processed crap, so the art of real cooking gets forgotten, not because no-one wants to do it, but because it is far more cost effective NOT to do it.

This.
There's a lot of scrounging dolescum who'd be very happy to have the money to cook fresh food from scratch, but can't afford anything other than preprocessed crap, often packaged outside of the country and stuffed full of shit you can't put in food manufactured in the EU.
Maybe if the government are serious about addressing the terrible threat child obesity poses to the future, they'll take the farmers' cocks out of their mouths and do something about the distributors taste for inflating the cost of produce with price fixing and so hiking the supermarket price up even before their own mark up is added. Don't hold breath on that one, though.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Aedonix)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Is it any wonder... - 1/8/2013 12:58:15 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aedonix


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


Honestly, my biggest issue with food stamps is that people do not know how to cook anymore without a box mix.  A families food stamps would go much further if people could stop buying packaged crap because they no knowledge on how to prepare anything else.  It would be healthier and tastier as well.  (Cake mixes are the only exception that I can think of off the top of my head.)


On the nose!. and you would honestly think that WOULDN'T be the case with the sheer number of cooking shows on the TV, but people simply choose not to learn, instead watching them as entertainment.

Having said that though, one thing i have noticed over here in the UK is that for the most part. buying the amount of fresh food required to make even a simple dish like Spaghetti and Meatballs ends up costing WAY more than it does to buy the "Fresh from the freezer" version (which is so full of additives and preservatives and other crap it is not even funny). Now.. The system over here is set up in such a way that once you have the misfortune to end up on benefits (and all of the secondary benefits such as help with rent, free eye and dentistry etc) that to find work where your income MATCHES the level you recieve on benefit and you can afford to pay for the rent, the medical stuff etc is very difficult to do. This system actually DISCOURAGES you from re-joining the work place unless you can find one of the rare jobs that pays reasonably well. But I digress.

On those sort of incomes the only REAL option IS the processed crap, so the art of real cooking gets forgotten, not because no-one wants to do it, but because it is far more cost effective NOT to do it.



Actually, that is where economies of scale kicks in.  For things like spaghetti and meatballs (I would likely just do a meat sauce) it does not cost that much extra to double the amount you cook.  You will have to buy extra noodles and tomato sauce or paste, but your onions, garlic, herbs, carrots/peppers/whatever you use, and meat have already been purchased.  Your extra noodles and tomato sauce/paste is only going to be a couple of extra bucks.  You can then put half in the freezer for another day.  Now you have one healthy meal and a freezer dinner.  And likely some leftover in the fridge for lunch.  Those "fresh from the freezer" meals are just not very big. 

But this is not an option if you do not know how to go from a can of tomato paste/sauce to spaghetti sauce. 

You also loose options if you cannot look at what is on sale at the store and know how to fix it into a meal.  (Yes, when I make a grocery list, I really do list "sale meat" as an item.")

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Aedonix)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Is it any wonder... - 1/8/2013 1:02:31 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aedonix
On those sort of incomes the only REAL option IS the processed crap, so the art of real cooking gets forgotten, not because no-one wants to do it, but because it is far more cost effective NOT to do it.

This.
There's a lot of scrounging dolescum who'd be very happy to have the money to cook fresh food from scratch, but can't afford anything other than preprocessed crap, often packaged outside of the country and stuffed full of shit you can't put in food manufactured in the EU.
Maybe if the government are serious about addressing the terrible threat child obesity poses to the future, they'll take the farmers' cocks out of their mouths and do something about the distributors taste for inflating the cost of produce with price fixing and so hiking the supermarket price up even before their own mark up is added. Don't hold breath on that one, though.


I would recommend that we stop burning our food as well.  Between the drought this year in the US and the EPA requirements (20%) for how much of our crops go for bio-fuels, we lost at least 40% of our corn and soy crops that could have been food.  No, we cannot do much about the drought.  There is a reason that they used to refer to fly-over country as the Great American Desert.  But we did not have to compound that with burning our food crops.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Is it any wonder... - 1/8/2013 1:06:01 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Isn't the problem with the corn that gets burned more that it's being massively overproduced, though?
They'd be a lot better off growing something else. Of course, they wouldn't get the subsidies then, would they?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Is it any wonder... - 1/8/2013 1:21:51 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

But the simple fact is that, for example, outsourcing's effects on employment which may increase the welfare rolls is of no value in discussing whether recipients should be provided steak, or put another way, just how the taxpayer dollars should be allowed to be used by recipients.

----------------------------------

Steak has not been credibly and sufficiently demonstrated.   Farsical argumentation, so far.



Bull shit. There was an article just a few days ago about people using welfare dollars to purchase from within the sex industry. That's a topic we've even discussed in other threads before. Your bullshit form of argumentation is showing.

Bite me.

http://OLYMPIA --State lawmakers are proposing new restrictions on where welfare recipients can spend their taxpayer funded cash. This follows a KING 5 investigation that uncovered millions of tax dollars withdrawn at local casinos. Now, lawmakers are setting their sights on other “adults only” businesses.


Let me full you in on something yachtie, I am referring to California not the rest of world. Those on public assistance, welfare if you want to call that, are given a card, it look much like any ATM card and is used in the same way. This card is used for cash, if cash assistance is approved and or to purchase food. Now, there is a limit of funds for both cash and food, and is on a monthly bases that must be renewed each mouth. I was at a nearby Walmart and noted in the food section, specifically meats, there are things like cube steaks, they sell for around $5.00 more or less, come in a pack of 3 to 4. Now for some it could be high..but within means of some...so you are saying those on welfare are not allowed cube steak? Oh and I made a few inquires..yes steak is allowed on the food stamp program granted some is expensive..but yes they can have it, to bad for you.

The card as I mentioned if it has a cash assistance the money can be obtained from ATM which are just about everywhere, including casions and porn shops. The money is intended to help pay the bills, however it appears that in your article there is nothing to prevent or stop a person from using the money to gamble or rent a adult only DVD, no laws were broken, yes they did change the law after the fact. But if there is no legal restriction on how the money is spent, why blame the person.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Is it any wonder... - 1/8/2013 1:27:54 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Isn't the problem with the corn that gets burned more that it's being massively overproduced, though?
They'd be a lot better off growing something else. Of course, they wouldn't get the subsidies then, would they?


Nope.  Don't get me wrong, if a farmer wants to put in a corn crop for fuel IN ADDITION to his food crops, that is fine with me.  But that is not what is happening. 

And some of the subsidies are being paid for not growing a crop at all. 

There is a bunch of screwed up stuff going on.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 140
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