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The US got this right. - 1/7/2013 5:11:01 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20935502

This man also has several aliases, one of which i have used on these boards. He is aka Tommy Robinson founder of the racist EDL.

Free speech or not, you have to worry if rabble like this have been invited to speak in the US.
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RE: The US got this right. - 1/7/2013 6:01:27 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline 		The EDL, a nasty lot in my mind.

He has been barred entry previously because the government may bar noncitizens from entering the United States because of what they've said or are likely to say, even if the speech would have been constitutionally protected if said by a citizen. See Kleindienst v. Mandel (1972).

So this time he tried to travel under a different name - a separate violation.

And trust me, we have enough citizens here who are nasty in the same way - and saying all of the same hateful stuff. No shortage of nasty. No shortage of hate....

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RE: The US got this right. - 1/7/2013 6:09:17 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20935502



That's hilarious. What a cretin!

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RE: The US got this right. - 1/8/2013 1:36:57 AM   
Fellow


Posts: 1486
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		I do not see big crime here. The article does not clearly tell what was the man's purpose being in the US. Apparently he was not involved in any illegal activity. EDL certainly has valid point {relatively high immigration of Muslims into the UK causes all kind of problems}. I wouldn't call the organization racist.

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RE: The US got this right. - 1/8/2013 2:26:52 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

The EDL, a nasty lot in my mind.



Nasty but irrelevant and amateurish. Wen you think the Irish provos had most Presidents on side, this pathetic speciment couldn't get through a passport check.

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RE: The US got this right. - 1/8/2013 2:40:23 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

I do not see big crime here. The article does not clearly tell what was the man's purpose being in the US. Apparently he was not involved in any illegal activity. EDL certainly has valid point {relatively high immigration of Muslims into the UK causes all kind of problems}. I wouldn't call the organization racist.



So what do you know of the EDL ? Seriously, what inside info have you got that I havent ?

http://edlnews.co.uk/index.php/latest-news/latest-news/10-news/edl-racists/34-racist-chants-by-edl-in-pub

Sheesh....... I could say more but best if I dont.

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RE: The US got this right. - 1/8/2013 6:32:19 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow
I wouldn't call the organization racist.

What would you call them, then?
For fuck's sake, it's an organisation (not even a political party, which would give them a certain amount of leeway for the crap they come out with) aimed at people who are too bigotted to fit into the BNP...

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RE: The US got this right. - 1/8/2013 9:06:42 AM   
Aswad


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Status: offline 		The EDL... not racist?

That's a new one, Fellow.

Could you provide us with an example of what you'd call racist, for comparison?

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: The US got this right. - 1/8/2013 9:32:28 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

The EDL, a nasty lot in my mind.

He has been barred entry previously because the government may bar noncitizens from entering the United States because of what they've said or are likely to say, even if the speech would have been constitutionally protected if said by a citizen. See Kleindienst v. Mandel (1972).

So this time he tried to travel under a different name - a separate violation.

And trust me, we have enough citizens here who are nasty in the same way - and saying all of the same hateful stuff. No shortage of nasty. No shortage of hate....

From the pov of a Liberal I can't say I agree with Kleindienst v Mandel. Barring political, even racist provocateurs from entering the country while at the same time we allow the KKK to stage a parade seems a contradiction, and a paternalistic action by my Government. "Kleindienst" was born of fear of Communists for heaven's sake. Get over it. Americans have heard plenty of racist and political nonsense from our very own kooks. The fabric of the nation is not likely to be frayed by allowing extranational asswipes to speak here. Always up for a good comedy show.

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RE: The US got this right. - 1/8/2013 10:52:20 AM   
Fellow


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quote:

The EDL... not racist?

That's a new one, Fellow.

Could you provide us with an example of what you'd call racist, for comparison?


KKK is a racist organization. Militant Islam is not a race.

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RE: The US got this right. - 1/8/2013 11:05:17 AM   
Aylee


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Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow
I wouldn't call the organization racist.

What would you call them, then?
For fuck's sake, it's an organisation (not even a political party, which would give them a certain amount of leeway for the crap they come out with) aimed at people who are too bigotted to fit into the BNP...


There has to be some genetics in "racism's" DNA, some DNA in its gene pool, or it just isn't racism.  Islam is not a race.  Detesting Islam is not racist.  There is nothing in Islam which genetically compels white reverts to pray toward Mecca five times daily, to self-detonate in crowded squares and movie theaters, to find offense in just about everything, nor even to clitorectomize their women.  Flash alert: Lysenko was wrong.


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I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: The US got this right. - 1/8/2013 11:22:42 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20935502

This man also has several aliases, one of which i have used on these boards. He is aka Tommy Robinson founder of the racist EDL.

Free speech or not, you have to worry if rabble like this have been invited to speak in the US.

So what was the purpose of the trip? Did he enter (illegally) to speak somewhere in the US that night?

Also, where has his trial taken place and where will he spend time in jail? in the US or the UK? It looks to me like he was charged & put on trial in the UK and I dont think they have the right to do that if the crime happened in the US.. he should be extradited to the US & stand trial there.. jmo

I did not realize it was that easy to enter the US just by using the self-check kiosk.. wow! lol And then he slipped out of their hands so easily at JFK.. double wow!

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RE: The US got this right. - 1/8/2013 11:48:34 AM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

KKK is a racist organization. Militant Islam is not a race.


Okay. Let's call them grouphateists, then.

It's the same thing in principle.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Fellow)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: The US got this right. - 1/8/2013 12:27:10 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Racism has a superclass, a hypernym; a thing of which it is a subclass, a hyponym, a kind of.

That thing, I would call supremism, but I see the name rankism has already been proposed, a name I think is inappropriate, because ranking isn't even remotely involved or related, and occurs on a more objective basis. So for this post, I'll stick with supremism, unless there's a strong consensus that rankism should be used instead.

Examples of supremism include:
- Gender based oppression in patriarchies.
- Jewish/gentile based oppression in Zionism.
- Muslim/infidel based oppression in militant Islam.
- Christian/heathen based oppression in earlier Europe.
- Age based discrimination in employment and other settings.
- Race based discrimination, segregation and oppression, whether one race or several.

... and, importantly for this thread, EDL's persecution of muslims.

Supremism tends to come in two flavors. One is the elitist form, elevating a single group above others on non-meritous grounds, which we may say has been historically exemplified by White Power, Zionism, and so forth. Another is the form that doesn't elevate itself, but which rather considers one group as below others on non-meritous grounds, such as classic anti-Black racism. These two forms will often coexist.

Every negative value assessment applicable to racism generalizes readily to supremism.

And the EDL is a supremist organization in this sense, of the second flavor, targetted at Muslims generally, and not in the least specific to militant Islam, nor particularly well distinguished from ethnic hate (I know plenty of Atheists from Turkey, for instance, who are targetted just the same as any other Middle-Eastern person, whether Muslim or not).

Throughout the history of humanity, the battle against supremism has been born and reborn in age, race, caste, creed, gender, ethnicity, and just about everything else you can think of. It is, in my opinion, important to recognize all of these as being faces of a single thing, a single struggle in which all of humanity will hopefully one day be united, until we're free of the shackles of supremism.

As I've said elsewhere, I consider meritocracy the silver bullet for supremism, but that's going to get too far off topic to pursue.

Supremism is not the solution to the genuine problems with militant Islam.

In fact, it's at the very heart of some of those problems.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: The US got this right. - 1/8/2013 12:36:29 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow
KKK is a racist organization. Militant Islam is not a race.

Neither is Judaism, but the KKK is nearly as notorious for jewbashing as it is for its problem with uppity blacks.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: The US got this right. - 1/8/2013 1:16:53 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow
KKK is a racist organization. Militant Islam is not a race.

Neither is Judaism, but the KKK is nearly as notorious for jewbashing as it is for its problem with uppity blacks.


No, Judaism is not a race.  A religion, a culture, a tribe, a nation.  But not a race.  There are some Jewish ethnic groups: the Mizrahi (from the Middle East and North Africa), the Sephardi (Spanish) and the Ashkenazi, (German, Polish, Russian and other Eastern European), the Beta Yisrael of Ethiopia, and the Cochin of India.  That idea that Judaism is a race was put forth by Adolph Hitler.  The KKK are twits. 

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Moonhead)
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RE: The US got this right. - 1/8/2013 2:40:43 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Definitely a thought provoking post. Thank you.

quote:

Supremism tends to come in two flavors. One is the elitist form, elevating a single group above others on non-meritous grounds, which we may say has been historically exemplified by White Power, Zionism, and so forth. Another is the form that doesn't elevate itself, but which rather considers one group as below others on non-meritous grounds, such as classic anti-Black racism. These two forms will often coexist.


I think supremism is a perfect definition for the elite group elevation. I dont think it fits the second as well. Thats more a suppression/oppression of one group beneath all the rest. There can be many groups being suppressed at one time as well.

I also agree its past time we stopped looking at the "race" or "sex" or the "religion" of a group... we are all past that. Its enough that we see a group being suppressed, and often oppressed, and speak out when it occurs.



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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: The US got this right. - 1/8/2013 2:53:45 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

From the pov of a Liberal I can't say I agree with Kleindienst v Mandel. Barring political, even racist provocateurs from entering the country while at the same time we allow the KKK to stage a parade seems a contradiction, and a paternalistic action by my Government. "Kleindienst" was born of fear of Communists for heaven's sake. Get over it. Americans have heard plenty of racist and political nonsense from our very own kooks. The fabric of the nation is not likely to be frayed by allowing extranational asswipes to speak here. Always up for a good comedy show.


The difference is obvious.

We cant deny citizens access to the US. Nor can we kick them out. And losing citizenship status, while it is possible, cant just be taken away.

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_citi.html


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: The US got this right. - 1/8/2013 2:56:41 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Yeah, I see your point, and I'm open for suggestions as to a good term to distinguish the elitist vs beneathist flavors.

Socially speaking, it's a more unified phenomenon, with the two flavors often cooccuring; like, if you're a Zionist, the Jews are above the Gentiles, and Arabs are beneath the regular Gentiles.

The unified phenomenon poses a single problem, hence me using a single term, but as usual it would be good to have a more precise one on hand, even if it'll shift over time (I sometimes wish that Haspelmath and Chomsky would do a collaborative work on semantic evolution in the same context as the Propaganda Model; it would be naïve to think it hasn't occured to Murdoch et al, and good to know more about its characteristics).

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: The US got this right. - 1/8/2013 3:00:04 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I dont have a problem with someone believing their own race is great... or even the greatest.. as long as in that belief they arent trying to suppress everyone else. White power/Black power/Green power.... makes no difference. Elevate the race if someone so desires.

And in this we run across another problem. Determining which groups are trying to pick themselves up as opposed to groups pushing everyone around them down.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 20
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