RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent (Full Version)

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evesgrden -> RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent (1/10/2013 4:09:12 AM)

quote:


Then a question comes to mind based upon what you say above. If someone is trained and conditioned so that they cannot make the choice, their ability to give consent is removed, is that then abuse in your opinion?


I'm afraid that's something that ultimately the courts would have to decide.

At an ethical level, I would suggest that if I had modified someone's behavior to the point that they comply with any and all requests, the question is whether they would have consented prior to the conditioning. If no, then it's abuse. If I'm the one who did the conditioning, I would know that.
Charles Manson comes to mind.
Learned helplessness and POW's or concentration camp prisoners who could not/would not leave when freed come to mind.

However, if my submissive doesn't think twice when I say "could I have some more ice in my water please", and stops shaving, drops his towel and immediately runs to fetch a couple of cubes for me, then I would not say it's abuse.

The issue is not compliance, it's about the act and it's about the act in context. Would they regret knowing you, or regret obeying you without the conditioning? Is the act detrimental to self or others?

In vanilla relationships, abuse is insidious. The battered wife isn't battered during the courtship. The first occurrence of abuse doesn't take the form of a black eye. It's a shove that "could be" explained accidental. It's about snatching something out of someone's hand a little too forcefully, it's tossing something "at" someone rather than "to" someone. If you want to increase someone's tolerance of a behavior or sensation, then it's done gradually, over time. Up the intensity gradually. The next few times being shoved occurs for a "lesser" crime, and then the shove is a little harder, and then the shove means the target ends up on the floor or tripping backwards over a coffee table or crashing into a wall. The tolerance for misbehavior (on the side of the abuser) increases.

As a dominant, what you permit, you promote.
As a submissive, what you permit, you promote.

When red flags go up, pay attention. It's not a sure sign that the other person is out of line, but it may be a sure sign that the other person is not the right match for you.

But I digress.

quote:

Now take it down a notch, to choices and situations that are not one's that trigger self preservation. What about those?


Behavior, in context.

The power, i.e., the conditioning, is not an issue. It's the abuse of power which is an issue. Perhaps this is no different than when one talks about subspace... and the submissive's or bottom's ability to use a safeword/object/consent/ is compromised. When riding high-test endorphins, a top could easily abuse their power.. that's a microcosm of what we're talking about because it's in a time-limited or situation specific scenario. But it's still an abuse of power.

Is started working in applied behavior analysis in the late 70's. I can tell you more than you want to know about positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement, as well as punishment and extinction.

Ok.. I've written too much and not had enough coffee. Or written too much and had too much coffee. Might have to come back and edit later.



JeffBC -> RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent (1/10/2013 6:34:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst
I find that my ability to withdraw consent is based not so much on my partner as it is on myself. If I had made the choice to give someone power over me that is not just sexually based, then "I" have removed that barrier permanantly. I view it as my personality defect. It is what keeps me attached long after the relationship has gone. It is this defect that keeps me from attaching to anyone until I am fairly certain they mean me no harm. If it is brainwashing then it is something that happened to me at a very young age. The only saving grace is that I am incapable of giving that kind of power to just anyone. The bad thing about it is that I don't love often.

This sounds like Carol. In point of fact it brings up some things she said from 20 years ago that remind me yet again we were this way long before we knew it. Carol sees it (or saw it anyway) as a defect too. She'd say, "I'm too nice" and be really serious about it with a determination to fix her "excess of niceness". She was also highly concerned about losing her identity simply by marrying me. In point of fact, I think she became mine in the property sense the moment we married. I just think it took us another decade to bump into BDSM and obtain the mental constructs required to understand that and utilize it.



JeffBC -> RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent (1/10/2013 7:02:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
That said, because I've had to take ownership of myself back in the past, I know I am capable of doing that again. I wouldn't say this necessarily means we're living in an illusion of D/s, though

And i would agree for several different reasons. For starters, I think calling "D/s by agreement" an "illusion" is about as ridiculous as all the other "fake" type comments. It clearly is NOT an illusion. It is clearly a deeply important thing for a fair number of people -- almost all BDSM people by my count. I try to avoid denying reality whenever possible. AS an analogy, rayon is not an inferior form of or an illusion of silk. They are two different fabrics and they each have their moments and use cases. I dislike viewpoints which say, "Everyone not like me is an inferior version of me".

Next though, that statement doesn't preclude any of the stuff I'm talking about which, I believe, is what Orion is also describing. Online in the BDSM world everything is shades of black & white. There is no grey. Life is composed of absolutes and totalities and certainties. Out in the real world reality holds sway. Things are complex and muddy and dynamically shifting. This is why I always try to qualify statements that involve the internal control I wield over Carol. All of it depends on a complex web that's been woven between us and that web could be broken in any number of ways -- most likely by a long-term erosion of trust/respect started by my own asshattery but random life events or internal changes in her personality are also a possibility.

My power is not absolute... if it were that'd mean I have no involvement in it whatsoever which seems ludicrous. The idea that I could do anything at all or nothing and she'd still be "internally enslaved" (*sigh* I really need to make up a new phrase for this) is something out of fiction. I'll leave that sort of thinking to the folks who like the "internal enslavement" phrase. It is not reality. Your experience is reality in my opinion.

Interestingly, several years ago I scoffed at the "cannot leave" people. In hindsight, that's partly just because I was new and stupid. it's partly because of the same bullshit absolutes that the "internal enslavement" camp likes to talk about. So I'm still content to laugh at the absolutism but in a more realistic sense I now agree. I'm perfectly willing to say "Carol not only can't leave but can't even think about doing that without my permission." it's just that I like to qualify it with "presuming the D/s web is still intact".



angelikaJ -> RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent (1/10/2013 7:41:03 AM)

My political views are largely in opposition to [my] Master's.

This year I found myself voting along lines I never thought I could or would.

It was not because I simply wished to please Him and He would never ask that choice of me.
It was more along the lines of I wanted to give Him something of mine; and I gave Him my vote... if that makes any sense.



Moonlightmaddnes -> RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent (1/10/2013 7:55:31 AM)

My mother would say no there is no way anyone consents to this. She would swear they were manipulated. But my mother was severely abused by my father. She did not marry him knowing he would hit her for not knowing what he wanted for dinner before he ever got home or the nights he was really bad trying to kill her. Then later he would have her head all twisted around to make her believe that she asked for it. Reality was he was a mean ass drunk and if anyone so much as looked at him at the wrong time he exploded and got violent.

Me I know there are people out there that enjoy both sides and they are not being manipulated. I do not bring it up with my mother though since we will never agree on this.



LizDeluxe -> RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent (1/10/2013 8:43:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
At what point is their ability to make a free choice inhibited? Can they actually give consent at this point?


I don't believe that you can evaluate free choice or free will without examining the consequences of that choice. If it is a pretty severe ultimatum such as "Do as I say or pack your bags" then that might be much more coercive than "Do I say or you will be severely punished and/or I will be greatly disappointed in you". Even those consequences will vary from person to person. Some people would rather cut their own hand off than disappoint their dominant.

Ultimately, my opinion is that in general terms the submissive/bottom always has the option of consent or free choice. If they are truly in a situation where consent or free choice no longer exist then they are into an area outside and beyond conventional BDSM borders. At that point the most important thing they bring to the relationship is a willingness not to prosecute.



LizDeluxe -> RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent (1/10/2013 9:07:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
A few have mentioned giving control, but if you are the one actively controlling the on/off of that, then who is really in control?


Holds your cards, folks. We have a bingo. I have always said that the submissive is ultimately in control. The dominant wields what power or control that the submissive delegates to them unless you have been kidnapped and are being held against your will in someone's basement. You can dress domination and submission up in whatever flowery protocol you wish. In the end, it's simply two people interacting and it's a two way street.

I'm referring to a 'healthy' bdsm relationship between two otherwise stable partners. Once we get into a discussion about psychological manipulation the relationship becomes something other than a 'healthy' bdsm relationship between two otherwise stable partners. It happens and it's precisely the relationship that the non bdsm public points to to illustrate how fucked up we all. Not that those types of relationships are exclusive to bdsm, mind you.




LadyPact -> RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent (1/10/2013 9:33:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders

fast reply

I just wanted to say this is an interesting discussion. I have been mulling it over for the last few hours and I still don't feel that I'm ready to formulate any kind of coherent response. And perhaps I am not the right person to respond to this, because I am what Jeff concisely calls 'D/s by agreement'. Every time I submit I make a conscious choice to do so, I am not 'internally enslaved' and I made the decision to submit to him as a rational choice (as rational as is possible when two people are falling in love). My decisions are influenced by him in that he is someone I love and respect and so want to make decisions that bring him happiness, but I've never felt that his will effectively takes my choice away from me.

This topic makes me uncomfortable because I keep going back to my experience working on domestic violence cases. Consent, though not the only indicator, is still one of the first and simplest distinctions between an abusive relationship and a successful, positive D/s or BDSM relationship. And yet there are people here that I respect and that clearly have fulfilling working relationships where it is clear that consent is not a relevant question (I'm looking at you Jeff, not talking about 'I consented to be in the relationship so my consent is no longer needed'). I feel uneasy trying to wrestle with this and figure out in my own head how this works, but I think it's a good kind of uneasy, that prompts mental and emotional growth.

So thanks for starting this thread, I will be watching with interest even though I can't usefully contribute.
You are absolutely brilliant!

The highlighted above is exactly why I hold up at not wanting internal enslavement to get to that level. It honestly doesn't matter that clip is male. I've literally heard too many stories that *weren't* BDSM that in My mind I see how thin the line can be between the two. I believe My past experiences dealing with DV victims impacts Me in this area. It's My own personal hang up.

Do I see it the same way in other people's dynamics? No. Do I think for a second that, for example, Carol or amira are abused, rather than internally enslaved? Not at all. I'm completely aware that internal enslavement exists and in some cases, it's easier to obtain than others. I suppose I just want that nirvana of the person being internally enslaved enough that they feel their bonds, but knowing they can break them if the dynamic would become abusive.




Aswad -> RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent (1/10/2013 10:00:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

Some people would rather cut their own hand off than disappoint their dominant.


An instance of this, although with a finger, passed as consensual and not abusive in the Supreme Court hereabouts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

[...] In the end, it's simply two people interacting and it's a two way street. [...] Once we get into a discussion about psychological manipulation the relationship becomes something other than a 'healthy' bdsm relationship between two otherwise stable partners. [...]


How delightfully simple.

But, really, psychological manipulation is, in the end, simply two people interacting, unless you're using drugs, neurosurgery or the like.

So what you're saying is, in essence, that it's about a healthy relationship, which is defined in terms of interacting (inherent in the idea of a relationship) and doing so in a manner that doesn't fit some criteria that haven't been supplied. Psychological manipulation doesn't have any solid, commonly accepted definition beyond "it made me do something I didn't want to do", the validity of which has been questioned here (even in your post, implicitly), and the reality of which is a part of several of the relationships of people on here.

Indeed, the term strikes me as being equally as pointless as the similarly (ab)used word "natural", which is shorthand for "familiar" in practice. And lack of familiarity and reflection are at the root of most objections to most of WIITWD, a condition shared with most of what isn't familiar, as has been the case throughout history. Now, I don't mind reframing as a tool in examining or discussing a topic, but you don't seem to be converging on anything resembling your essential position: that, ultimately, the sub is, always, necessarily, in control.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



JeffBC -> RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent (1/10/2013 10:15:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe
I'm referring to a 'healthy' bdsm relationship between two otherwise stable partners. Once we get into a discussion about psychological manipulation the relationship becomes something other than a 'healthy' bdsm relationship between two otherwise stable partners. It happens and it's precisely the relationship that the non bdsm public points to to illustrate how fucked up we all. Not that those types of relationships are exclusive to bdsm, mind you.

Both you and evesgarden have said essentially this. It makes me wonder if we are using different definitions for the word "manipulation" and/or "healthy"

For me, manipulating someone is any time I consciously try to influence their opinion -- or for that matter -- any time I do so foolishly unaware of that. For me "healthy" is that which produces lots of happiness and smiles. So two specific examples:

With Carol I am currently working on changing her sense of self. Specifically, I don't think she owns her body any more so I think she ought to be reasonably unattached to who it is serving sexually. If they are MY breasts, then why does she care who is touching them? So I've been working on this change. It's a work in progress. What would be unhealthy in my mind is making her blow some guy right now. It would be seen as invasive, icky, and a lot of other such words -- all the things you'd expect a normal vanilla wife to think. It would clearly be harmful to her. By changing her I change her response to the stimuli. If I am successful, then having her sexually service someone else becomes an affirmation of our dynamic/marriage. So I turn poison into medicine with my efforts to manipulate her. This change was WAY outside of her default mindset and not anything she would have even remotely considered agreeing to had we done some sort of contract.

With someone else... not someone I have a romantic, sexual, or D/s relationship with (in the way BDSM folks would think of that) or even someone I have met in real life... that person asked me some time ago for some specific help with a specific issue. I quickly came to the conclusion she had no idea what the real problem was so changed the topic rather dramatically. Since then I've been doing my damndest to change her life in some truly substantial ways. I've used every trick in my arsenal to effect those changes -- usually overtly but sometimes not-so-much. Those tricks include "reason & logic", "appeals to emotion", "flat out anger", "raw dominance", and even some subtle and benign deception. I absolutely think I am manipulating her... or trying to. As I said, we have no D/s relationship in the BDSM sense of that. She never agreed to obey. I don't expect her to agree nor do I care whether she does. Pretty much what I care about is improving her life and I'll do what I'm able to make that happen. Just as with Carol I suspect you'd have a really, really hard time convincing this person that anything I'm doing is unhealthy.



JeffBC -> RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent (1/10/2013 10:25:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders
This topic makes me uncomfortable because I keep going back to my experience working on domestic violence cases. Consent, though not the only indicator, is still one of the first and simplest distinctions between an abusive relationship and a successful, positive D/s or BDSM relationship. And yet there are people here that I respect and that clearly have fulfilling working relationships where it is clear that consent is not a relevant question (I'm looking at you Jeff, not talking about 'I consented to be in the relationship so my consent is no longer needed'). I feel uneasy trying to wrestle with this and figure out in my own head how this works, but I think it's a good kind of uneasy, that prompts mental and emotional growth.

LOL, I SOOO sympathize with that. It's often-times the uneasy stuff which is most worth examining and thank you for hanging onto actual reality while you cope with the uneasiness. But honestly, I don't think it's all that hard to understand.

Carol, as a default submissive personality got involved with someone who was a default dominant. That takes any meaningful consent out of the equation right there. What separates it from abuse is that it's not abusive. Results, in the end, matter more than checklists and red flags and any therapist would agree with that The map is not the terrain. What stops it from going that direction is equally simple. I love her -- not that needy, clinging, selfish sort of love but rather the giving, altruistic kind. So all of the potentially abusive parts of our dynamic end up being used for positive ends rather than negative. For the most part I turn my effort, attention, and commands towards things which will benefit her or us. I readily admit that where I fail the most is when it's an appropriate time to be selfish.

In the end a sharp tool is a sharp tool. But whether or not it harms it's wielder or anyone else is largely dependent on intent and skill.



JeffBC -> RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent (1/10/2013 10:32:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Do I see it the same way in other people's dynamics? No. Do I think for a second that, for example, Carol or amira are abused, rather than internally enslaved? Not at all.

:) Well that's a crying shame because honesty, WAY more funny than you applying for MystressWorld would be you, of all people, calling up Carol and trying to convince her she is abused.

I suppose I just want that nirvana of the person being internally enslaved enough that they feel their bonds, but knowing they can break them if the dynamic would become abusive.
I'm sure you can imagine that I don't want an abusive dynamic either. It's just that has to be all on me. Carol cannot effectively defend herself against me. So consent isn't the issue. That fucker who looks back in the mirror at me each morning... HE is an issue. I do what I can to leave such paths open in Carol's mind but honestly they conflict with "mine". Also, as you've noted many times, we're at the 20 year mark give or take. That sort of safety net seems to be in the "day late, dollar short" category for us. I might have pressed forward more slowly back in year 1 although honestly I suspect I would've been deluding myself rather than accomplishing anything tangibly different.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent (1/10/2013 11:07:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
At what point is their ability to make a free choice inhibited? Can they actually give consent at this point?


I don't believe that you can evaluate free choice or free will without examining the consequences of that choice. If it is a pretty severe ultimatum such as "Do as I say or pack your bags" then that might be much more coercive than "Do I say or you will be severely punished and/or I will be greatly disappointed in you". Even those consequences will vary from person to person. Some people would rather cut their own hand off than disappoint their dominant.


In the more extreme power exchange (using as a general catch all phrase) relationships, you do not need to voice the "Do it or it is done." It is something that is always there. In fact many of us in the more extreme side of it often have a phrase that fits "It is my way and there is no highway.". This means that failure is not presented as an option, only obedience. Everything comes through the dominant personality in these types of relationships. At a certain point the disappointment of the dominant personality triggers such a heavy internal negative consequence trigger, that it is often avoided at all costs.

quote:


Ultimately, my opinion is that in general terms the submissive/bottom always has the option of consent or free choice. If they are truly in a situation where consent or free choice no longer exist then they are into an area outside and beyond conventional BDSM borders. At that point the most important thing they bring to the relationship is a willingness not to prosecute.


I am definitely talking outside the areas of what most consider conventional BDSM borders. This is the area where many do not play, there is no S & M, and it is the essence of the relationship that the submissive personality obey the dominant one. Other than the relationship, all other facets could be the same as the most conservative vanilla person.

Don't want to steer it off course, but it most BDSM where there may be impact or physical contact, there is often a willingness to not prosecure, or at the very least, testify against. Removing that though, the extreme legal side is where I am examining and discussing.

Thanks in advance for your input, and for everyone's input. This has been a very good discussion of a topic that has floated around the BDSM areas for a long time. It is often considered taboo, abusive, or any other negative terms. It is also something that many people are happily doing, so I think it is something that is good to talk about, pros and cons.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent (1/10/2013 11:14:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
A few have mentioned giving control, but if you are the one actively controlling the on/off of that, then who is really in control?


Holds your cards, folks. We have a bingo. I have always said that the submissive is ultimately in control. The dominant wields what power or control that the submissive delegates to them unless you have been kidnapped and are being held against your will in someone's basement. You can dress domination and submission up in whatever flowery protocol you wish. In the end, it's simply two people interacting and it's a two way street.



Would another bingo be that there are some relationships where the dominant personality has over powered the submissive personality via conditioning and willpower? Wouldn't that be two sides with various degrees between?

quote:


I'm referring to a 'healthy' bdsm relationship between two otherwise stable partners. Once we get into a discussion about psychological manipulation the relationship becomes something other than a 'healthy' bdsm relationship between two otherwise stable partners. It happens and it's precisely the relationship that the non bdsm public points to to illustrate how fucked up we all. Not that those types of relationships are exclusive to bdsm, mind you.


We would need to define healthy and stable. If we did that I am sure we would be using conventional psychological definitions, which I have found often do not describe those involved in various acts of BDSM very well. We would then be throwing back to the vanilla world to define an alternative lifestyle, which does not seem to adequately define what many of us already know.

If two people have this type of extreme power exchange relationship, without any violence, illegal activities, and they both thrive, then is it actually unhealthy? Where is that line of healthy and unhealthy?



AthenaSurrenders -> RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent (1/10/2013 11:20:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
In the end a sharp tool is a sharp tool. But whether or not it harms it's wielder or anyone else is largely dependent on intent and skill.



On this note Jeff, if it's not too sensitive a question, do you think that Carol could just as easily have fallen into an abusive relationship if she had met and fallen for an abuser? I've certainly known abusers who have been charming and come across as intelligent, caring and sensible. Since she defaults to the submissive position, do you think she'd be particularly vulnerable to this?



JeffBC -> RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent (1/10/2013 11:41:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders
On this note Jeff, if it's not too sensitive a question, do you think that Carol could just as easily have fallen into an abusive relationship if she had met and fallen for an abuser? I've certainly known abusers who have been charming and come across as intelligent, caring and sensible. Since she defaults to the submissive position, do you think she'd be particularly vulnerable to this?

That's a tough question. Carol is not stupid... or wasn't when I met her (like all of us she wasn't quite so on-the-ball at earlier ages). Nor is "weak" the right word to use. Certainly in the very, very beginning she could have made a choice to not associate with me further. So on one hand yes, I think she is more susceptible than most to this. On the other hand there are counter-balancing attributes in her personality. But you know me and my fetish about actual reality. In actual reality Carol did not come to me damaged. She was in some relationships that anyone would call abusive but she didn't come out of them scarred and she did extricate herself before scarring occurred.

I have always thought "yes, particularly vulnerable" but reality is that she came to me unharmed so obviously there's something else in play beyond a strong desire to please.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent (1/10/2013 11:47:17 AM)

My girl amira was first owned by what most everyone would consider an abuser. Beaten severely, locked in a closet, deprived of food and water for periods longer than what is healthy, emotional and psychological abuse as well. Her first owner was someone that had extremely strong will-power, highly intelligent, and used conditioning as a means of obedience. Before knowing her, I knew of certain training techniques, but it was this that first started my own personal study into applied human behavior.

That being said, it goes back to what another poster mentioned, and these types of relationships are defined as abusive when the outcome is negative to the submissive personality. It also goes towards what Jeff mentions that are sharp tool is just a sharp tool, and how it is used defines things.


quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
In the end a sharp tool is a sharp tool. But whether or not it harms it's wielder or anyone else is largely dependent on intent and skill.



On this note Jeff, if it's not too sensitive a question, do you think that Carol could just as easily have fallen into an abusive relationship if she had met and fallen for an abuser? I've certainly known abusers who have been charming and come across as intelligent, caring and sensible. Since she defaults to the submissive position, do you think she'd be particularly vulnerable to this?




LadyPact -> RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent (1/10/2013 12:12:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
:) Well that's a crying shame because honesty, WAY more funny than you applying for MystressWorld would be you, of all people, calling up Carol and trying to convince her she is abused.
Oh, I'll give you that one. I thought for a second that it might make a good April Fool's Day joke, but I highly doubt I could be convincing enough to pull it off.


quote:

I'm sure you can imagine that I don't want an abusive dynamic either. It's just that has to be all on me. Carol cannot effectively defend herself against me. So consent isn't the issue. That fucker who looks back in the mirror at me each morning... HE is an issue. I do what I can to leave such paths open in Carol's mind but honestly they conflict with "mine". Also, as you've noted many times, we're at the 20 year mark give or take. That sort of safety net seems to be in the "day late, dollar short" category for us. I might have pressed forward more slowly back in year 1 although honestly I suspect I would've been deluding myself rather than accomplishing anything tangibly different.
I understand this completely. I would have to think that any Dominant worth their salt would say the same thing. None of us want to be abusive. Part of that is the self-examination when we are looking in the mirror.

I still consider My dynamic in the safety net zone in the area of IE. It's not only a question of longevity. There are a lot of factors to consider. At least one of which isn't quantifiable.




sexyred1 -> RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent (1/10/2013 12:42:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
A few have mentioned giving control, but if you are the one actively controlling the on/off of that, then who is really in control?


Holds your cards, folks. We have a bingo. I have always said that the submissive is ultimately in control. The dominant wields what power or control that the submissive delegates to them unless you have been kidnapped and are being held against your will in someone's basement. You can dress domination and submission up in whatever flowery protocol you wish. In the end, it's simply two people interacting and it's a two way street.

I'm referring to a 'healthy' bdsm relationship between two otherwise stable partners. Once we get into a discussion about psychological manipulation the relationship becomes something other than a 'healthy' bdsm relationship between two otherwise stable partners. It happens and it's precisely the relationship that the non bdsm public points to to illustrate how fucked up we all. Not that those types of relationships are exclusive to bdsm, mind you.




I agree with this above. People always hate the term "consensual non-consent" but it is true in many cases; that is what we do. The difference lies in the context and that is where we have a grey area and the ever present "fine line" of behavior, force, compliance and manipulation.

Example: in one situation with my ex, we learned that something he loved to do what dangerous for me, physically, even though I liked it when it was happening. When it was done, and the endorphins were gone, I told him we could never do it again. He agreed and then, made sure I was in not in a position to stop it the next time he did it and despite all my screaming about it, he went ahead and did it.

The first time he did that and I truly did not consent, I should have left and never came back. To me this was abuse, not him being Dominant. Instead, I felt that I wanted to please him and that was enough to keep me there, despite what I KNEW was a dangerous thing.

The issue with him as a Dominant, was that once you took the "hotness factor" out of it, he should have done what was best for my personal and emotional health, not just himself. He also kept saying, "but you loved it, you got off on it" and most of all, he said "if I am so horrible, why do you see me?", all of which is completely manipulative.

Again, as I stated earlier in my other post, I was a victim of him, but mostly I was victim who went along with something once I said no.

The end result was I did end up being hospitalized and you know what? He still kept trying to do it subsequently and thought it was just an accident. The ultimate in selfishness.

So OP, how do you view something like that, choice and consent?



chadra -> RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent (1/10/2013 1:28:00 PM)

Whatever the process involved and/or the personalities at play, isn't this a state of enmeshment developed to the degree of rendering the concept of consent meaningless? If that is true, then doesn't it really come down largely to chance?

Let me explain. In some cases (as exemplified I believe in the dynamics of many posters on this thread), the dominant partner will be highly responsible at the outset of the relationship and continue to be so. In some cases, however, the dominant partner will be highly responsible at the outset, but for whatever reason have that sense of responsibility erode. In others, the sense of responsibility will be lesser to varying degrees start to finish. My point is that when the concept of consent has been made moot or meaningless, the issues become exquisitely personal and individual. Does it become a matter of luck? Some finding themselves in continuing healthy and happy relationships and others, unfortunately, not?



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