RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. (1/23/2013 8:40:25 AM)

quote:

Given the dichotomy between the very complex nature and history of Auschwitz and the habit of many to consider the camp only as a "top-secret mass extermination center," many people, including bona-fide historians, survivors, and not so bona-fide holocaust deniers, often commit the fallacy of composition: they reason from the properties of the part of Auschwitz that was engaged with mass extermination to the properties of Auschwitz as a whole. A favourite example of the negationists is the so-called swimming pool in Auschwitz I. They argue that the presence of a swimming pool, with three diving boards, shows that the camp was really a rather benign place, and therefore could not have been a center of extermination. They ignore that the swimming pool was built as a water reservoir for the purpose of firefighting (there were no hydrants in the camp), that the diving boards were added later, and that the pool was only accessible to SS men and certain privileged Aryan prisoners employed as inmate-funcionaries in the camp. The presence of the swimming pool does not say anything about the conditions for Jewish inmates in Auschwitz, and does not challenge the existence of an extermination program with its proper facilities in Auschwitz II.


source

Now for the deniers, where did the millions of bodies in all the mass graves at the concentration camp come from? Movie industry special effects?




thezeppo -> RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. (1/23/2013 8:50:32 AM)

Oh go on then I will do one more.

50,000 testimonies, of which this video has identified six to back up its claims. There is no empirical link to Steven Spielberg in any way beyond the voice over saying his name and the Shoah foundation sign. Of those testimonies, all of them are edited and all of them involve the interviewee constantly looking at a point off camera as they tell their stories. Plus at the end the director walks on and hands everyone a big bag of money.

Show me even one of these testimonies reproduced at the actual Shoa foundation website, or some evidence that's where they come from, and I might watch it again.




Real0ne -> RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. (1/23/2013 9:02:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

Given the dichotomy between the very complex nature and history of Auschwitz and the habit of many to consider the camp only as a "top-secret mass extermination center," many people, including bona-fide historians, survivors, and not so bona-fide holocaust deniers, often commit the fallacy of composition: they reason from the properties of the part of Auschwitz that was engaged with mass extermination to the properties of Auschwitz as a whole. A favourite example of the negationists is the so-called swimming pool in Auschwitz I. They argue that the presence of a swimming pool, with three diving boards, shows that the camp was really a rather benign place, and therefore could not have been a center of extermination. They ignore that the swimming pool was built as a water reservoir for the purpose of firefighting (there were no hydrants in the camp), that the diving boards were added later, and that the pool was only accessible to SS men and certain privileged Aryan prisoners employed as inmate-funcionaries in the camp. The presence of the swimming pool does not say anything about the conditions for Jewish inmates in Auschwitz, and does not challenge the existence of an extermination program with its proper facilities in Auschwitz II.


source

Now for the deniers, where did the millions of bodies in all the mass graves at the concentration camp come from? Movie industry special effects?



lets stick with the pools and other entertainment at the camps we can talk about bodies some other time. One thing at a time.



quote:

The German-Australian revisionist Frederick Toben has brought to our attention the fact that today, beside the swimming pool at Auschwitz I, there stands a signboard bearing, in Polish, English and Hebrew, a notice intended to have the visitor believe that the pool was in fact a simple reservoir for the fire brigade. It reads as follows:

"Fire brigade reservoir built in the form of a swimming pool, probably in early 1944."

He asks when exactly this signboard appeared. I myself have no idea but the inscription is just as fallacious as any number of the Auschwitz museum's other allegations or explanations. One fails to see why the Germans, rather than settling for an ordinary reservoir, would have made one in the fashion of a swimming pool... complete with diving board.

The pool was a pool. It was meant for the detainees.

Marc Klein mentions it at least twice in his 1947 recollections of the camp. In an article entitled 'Auschwitz I Stammlager' he wrote:

"The working hours were modified on Sundays and holidays, when most of the kommandos were at leisure. Roll call was at around noon; evenings were devoted to rest and to a choice of cultural and sporting activities. Football, basketball, and water-polo matches (in an open-air pool built within the perimeter by detainees) attracted crowds of onlookers. It should be noted that only the very fit and well-fed, exempt from the harsh jobs, could indulge in these games which drew the liveliest applause from the masses of other detainees." (De l'UniversitÈ aux camps de concentration: Telmorgnages strasbourgeois, Paris, les Belles-lettres, 1947, p. 453).

In his 1948 booklet 'Observations et reflexions sur les camps de concentration nazis' he further wrote:


oh and incidently they did have reservoirs and guess what?

They looked like reservoirs.


any wonder so many people have talked so snarky about it?

The kind of fraud seen that generates anti [add whatever here]

The way I see it we are in an internet information world and no amount of orwellian shuffle can hide the facts.







mnottertail -> RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. (1/23/2013 9:11:28 AM)

No, it was meant for the kommandos, if anyone, but who the fuck is Marc Klein?  What proof do we have that he was in the base camp?  What proof do we have that he is telling the truth?

So, some of the prisoners who ran the day to day operations for the nazis took a swim.

That means what to who in the scheme of things?  It changes what?  





Real0ne -> RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. (1/23/2013 9:17:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo

Oh go on then I will do one more.

50,000 testimonies, of which this video has identified six to back up its claims. There is no empirical link to Steven Spielberg in any way beyond the voice over saying his name and the Shoah foundation sign. Of those testimonies, all of them are edited and all of them involve the interviewee constantly looking at a point off camera as they tell their stories. Plus at the end the director walks on and hands everyone a big bag of money.

Show me even one of these testimonies reproduced at the actual Shoa foundation website, or some evidence that's where they come from, and I might watch it again.



I never watched spielbergs version frankly from the reviews I can tell its the same ole russian propaganda regurgitated. I dont use anything like that nor for that matter he said she said as my personal sources for getting at the truth. The truth can be found in the evidence alone.

It was just nice to hear people (those interviewed), talk in a manner that fully confirms the records and evidence my research has dug up.

Like I said there are tonz of vids out there, I have them, and I know there are plenty of bw vids showing all the recreational activities and the participants wearing the star of david and so forth enjoying those recreational activities.

There are rosters and schedules and the whole lot, its all out here and its all over for anyone who wants to know.




thezeppo -> RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. (1/23/2013 9:18:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne



The way I see it we are in an internet information world and no amount of orwellian shuffle can hide the facts.






No matter how hard you try ;-)




Real0ne -> RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. (1/23/2013 9:20:02 AM)

enjoy the links




Moonhead -> RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. (1/23/2013 9:21:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
Like I said there are tonz of vids out there, I have them, and I know there are plenty of bw vids showing all the recreational activities and the participants wearing the star of david and so forth enjoying those recreational activities.

Assuming that you can actually produce any of these vids: who filmed them, and why?




Real0ne -> RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. (1/23/2013 9:24:56 AM)

they were filmed inside the camps at the time




mnottertail -> RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. (1/23/2013 9:26:12 AM)

the ones that are not available, credibly cited, nor in evidence, and filmed and researched by independent neutral parties you mean?





thezeppo -> RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. (1/23/2013 9:27:27 AM)

You never did answer my first question, which is what they were doing in the concentration camps in the first place? You are arguing your position by trying to pick apart relatively inconsequential facts just doesn't help your case at all. Assuming that those respondents in the video are genuine, there are 50,000 testimonies in that archive and that video shows 6. If 49,994 people said I had stolen your sandwich, and 6 said I hadn't, who would you believe?




Moonhead -> RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. (1/23/2013 9:27:57 AM)

No, they were filmed elsewhere, but claimed to be from the camps in an attempt to deny that mass murder was going on for propaganda purposes.




Real0ne -> RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. (1/23/2013 9:44:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

No, they were filmed elsewhere, but claimed to be from the camps in an attempt to deny that mass murder was going on for propaganda purposes.



ah so its a massive conspiracy then?






Real0ne -> RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. (1/23/2013 9:49:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo

You never did answer my first question, which is what they were doing in the concentration camps in the first place? You are arguing your position by trying to pick apart relatively inconsequential facts just doesn't help your case at all. Assuming that those respondents in the video are genuine, there are 50,000 testimonies in that archive and that video shows 6. If 49,994 people said I had stolen your sandwich, and 6 said I hadn't, who would you believe?



They were political prisoners just like the japs in america.

quote:



"Most of the 110,000 persons removed for reasons of 'national security' were school-age children, infants and young adults not yet of voting age."
- "Years of Infamy", Michi Weglyn

Following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, President Franklin D. Roosevelt issued Executive Order 9066, which permitted the military to circumvent the constitutional safeguards of American citizens in the name of national defense.

The order set into motion the exclusion from certain areas, and the evacuation and mass incarceration of 120,000 persons of Japanese ancestry living on the West Coast, most of whom were U.S. citizens or legal permanent resident aliens.

These Japanese Americans, half of whom were children, were incarcerated for up to 4 years, without due process of law or any factual basis, in bleak, remote camps surrounded by barbed wire and armed guards.

http://www.pbs.org/childofcamp/history/index.html


the actual records and the evidence led me to my conclusions a long time ago. I came to the interviews and testimony only a few short years ago.

You cannot prove anything to anyone who demands unreasonable proofs from you yet accepts anything and everything that supports their agenda. They even believe pictures of russians shooting prisoners was the nazis and paintings of supposed gassed victims were actual photographic proof.

The people in those documentaries that talk about the soccer and plays and all the other camp entertainment were validated as being there.

no wonder so many people are simply pissed and no wonder people blame the way they do after finding out how they have been lied to when they actually critically examine the facts and put that up against the teachings.









Moonhead -> RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. (1/23/2013 9:51:33 AM)

No, it's propaganda.
You used to get that a lot during wars. Of course we're smarter now so there's been no sign of anything of the sort since a couple of ugly buildings got knocked over in New York and war was declared on the evil terrorist and all of his kids, has there?




Real0ne -> RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. (1/23/2013 9:58:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

No, it's propaganda.
You used to get that a lot during wars. Of course we're smarter now so there's been no sign of anything of the sort since a couple of ugly buildings got knocked over in New York and war was declared on the evil terrorist and all of his kids, has there?



the american chief forensic examiner sent to auschwitz in his report did not find anyone that was gassed, they all died of dysentery and typhus which usually results in starvation caused mostly due to the lack of resources due to allied bombing the supply convoys.

No matter which way you want to turn you run into a brick wall of facts that blow genocidal death camp versions completely out of the water.


but we were all taught that these were mass murder camps. again any wonder people get snarky when the trustees pass well known propaganda onto our children through our ver own institutions.










mnottertail -> RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. (1/23/2013 9:59:58 AM)

the american chief forensic examiner sent to auschwitz in his report did not find anyone that was gassed

Credible citation please, and then I will tell you why he didn't.




Real0ne -> RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. (1/23/2013 10:03:05 AM)



Credible citation please.


another one was sent to confirm his findings and he also came to the same conclusions.





mnottertail -> RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. (1/23/2013 10:05:09 AM)

So, asswipe forwarded as bullshit without credible citations as ususal.

He never wrote anything of the kind is where it lays at the moment.




thezeppo -> RE: Antisemiticism on the collarme boards. (1/23/2013 10:07:30 AM)

Can you go into a bit more detail about your methodology? Which records did you study, how did you do study them, what were you looking for when you initially studied the records?

You keep acting like I can't comprehend that a body of text or information could be a discourse which covers reality when I have just spent two pages of this discussion arguing the same thing. The difference is, I didn't just say 'The printing press enabled an intellectual elite to disseminate culture throughout Ottoman Palestine after 1908, plus I've got more'. You need to give me more than this. Give me a full position, and give me some links.




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