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What if we burned the us and state constitutions? - 1/27/2013 9:49:38 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		Abolished all the state legislatures.

Would you have any rights?

What is the minimum requirement to have a right?

If you do not have any rights why not?

If you do have rights what would they be?

Anyone ever ponder that?








< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/27/2013 9:58:02 PM >

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RE: What if we burned the us and state constitutions? - 1/27/2013 11:29:53 PM   
imdoingitagain


Posts: 77
Joined: 4/7/2011
Status: offline 		1. Yes
2. Existence (I almost wrote 'birth' but didn't want to deal with the $#!! storm that would create)
3. N/A
4. Not really much TO ponder

First of all, destroying the physical document does not make the idea magically disappear. Second, it is quite clearly stated that it is considered self evident that rights are "endowed by their Creator" NOT the government.
A big problem that seems to arise is the misinterpretation that the US Constitution was created in order to protect the government...

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: What if we burned the us and state constitutions? - 1/28/2013 6:01:00 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
Abolished all the state legislatures.
Would you have any rights?
What is the minimum requirement to have a right?
If you do not have any rights why not?
If you do have rights what would they be?
Anyone ever ponder that?


More people than you probably had thought.

The existence of Government isn't to provide our rights, but to protect them. Instead of it being the guy with the biggest gun wins, Government allows those without a gun, whether by choice or by circumstance, to get closer to a fair chance.

http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa51.htm
    quote:

    If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. A dependence on the people is, no doubt, the primary control on the government; but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions.



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: What if we burned the us and state constitutions? - 1/28/2013 6:01:57 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The existence of Government isn't to provide our rights, but to protect them. Instead of it being the guy with the biggest gun wins, Government allows those without a gun, whether by choice or by circumstance, to get closer to a fair chance.

Isn't that a bit of a leftist notion?

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RE: What if we burned the us and state constitutions? - 1/28/2013 6:04:08 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The existence of Government isn't to provide our rights, but to protect them. Instead of it being the guy with the biggest gun wins, Government allows those without a gun, whether by choice or by circumstance, to get closer to a fair chance.

Isn't that a bit of a leftist notion?


That our individual rights are equal? Not hardly.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: What if we burned the us and state constitutions? - 1/28/2013 6:11:20 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		That government exists to enforce that equality rather than making it easier for those in a privileged position to exploit those below them is at the heart of most lefty philosophy that doesn't renounce governance as a bad idea and conentrate on voluntary co-operation instead, you'll find.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: What if we burned the us and state constitutions? - 1/28/2013 6:16:53 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		May the Force be with you.

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Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to Moonhead)
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RE: What if we burned the us and state constitutions? - 1/28/2013 6:59:53 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
That government exists to enforce that equality rather than making it easier for those in a privileged position to exploit those below them is at the heart of most lefty philosophy that doesn't renounce governance as a bad idea and conentrate on voluntary co-operation instead, you'll find.


That's just far Left rhetoric and not true by any measure.

Best of luck to you.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: What if we burned the us and state constitutions? - 1/28/2013 9:07:46 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
That government exists to enforce that equality rather than making it easier for those in a privileged position to exploit those below them is at the heart of most lefty philosophy that doesn't renounce governance as a bad idea and conentrate on voluntary co-operation instead, you'll find.


That's just far Left rhetoric and not true by any measure.

Best of luck to you.

In fact Moonhead here is being contradictory. Everyone is endowed by certain inalienable rights by our creator...not govt.

Govt. is formed as a necessaery evil to protect those rights...not outcomes. (privilege)

That the govt. has provided additional 'rights' and protected outcomes (results) is the natural venality found in mankind that govt. continues to fail to address.

For example...the corporation. It has no basis in civil society yet govt. allows it formation to establish certain new economic rights that now have been extended to constitutional rights beyond property rights.

There's the bastardiztion of govt. and most obvioulsy found in property rights hence the original formation of virtually all govts. in history to protected the right of certain people, the right of ownership of certain other people as chattel property, without any concern over their right to liberty and the pursuit of hapiness.

The further bastardization of govt. changes outcomes by virtue of granting civil (legal) rights...to the corporation.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: What if we burned the us and state constitutions? - 1/28/2013 11:59:20 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		When you can vote for your creator, then the argument that I'm being "contradictory" rather than paraphrasing the British tradition of wet liberalism might hold some water.
Read some Ruskin or Betham.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to MrRodgers)
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RE: What if we burned the us and state constitutions? - 1/28/2013 4:24:50 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
That government exists to enforce that equality rather than making it easier for those in a privileged position to exploit those below them is at the heart of most lefty philosophy that doesn't renounce governance as a bad idea and conentrate on voluntary co-operation instead, you'll find.


That's just far Left rhetoric and not true by any measure.

Best of luck to you.

In fact Moonhead here is being contradictory. Everyone is endowed by certain inalienable rights by our creator...not govt.

Govt. is formed as a necessaery evil to protect those rights...not outcomes. (privilege)

That the govt. has provided additional 'rights' and protected outcomes (results) is the natural venality found in mankind that govt. continues to fail to address.

For example...the corporation. It has no basis in civil society yet govt. allows it formation to establish certain new economic rights that now have been extended to constitutional rights beyond property rights.

There's the bastardiztion of govt. and most obvioulsy found in property rights hence the original formation of virtually all govts. in history to protected the right of certain people, the right of ownership of certain other people as chattel property, without any concern over their right to liberty and the pursuit of hapiness.

The further bastardization of govt. changes outcomes by virtue of granting civil (legal) rights...to the corporation.


Your creator has given me no rights at all.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: What if we burned the us and state constitutions? - 1/28/2013 10:37:43 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
That government exists to enforce that equality rather than making it easier for those in a privileged position to exploit those below them is at the heart of most lefty philosophy that doesn't renounce governance as a bad idea and conentrate on voluntary co-operation instead, you'll find.


That's just far Left rhetoric and not true by any measure.

Best of luck to you.

Conservitism belives in equal opportunity which does not gaurentee equal outcome.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: What if we burned the us and state constitutions? - 1/28/2013 10:39:22 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
That government exists to enforce that equality rather than making it easier for those in a privileged position to exploit those below them is at the heart of most lefty philosophy that doesn't renounce governance as a bad idea and conentrate on voluntary co-operation instead, you'll find.


That's just far Left rhetoric and not true by any measure.

Best of luck to you.

In fact Moonhead here is being contradictory. Everyone is endowed by certain inalienable rights by our creator...not govt.

Govt. is formed as a necessaery evil to protect those rights...not outcomes. (privilege)

That the govt. has provided additional 'rights' and protected outcomes (results) is the natural venality found in mankind that govt. continues to fail to address.

For example...the corporation. It has no basis in civil society yet govt. allows it formation to establish certain new economic rights that now have been extended to constitutional rights beyond property rights.

There's the bastardiztion of govt. and most obvioulsy found in property rights hence the original formation of virtually all govts. in history to protected the right of certain people, the right of ownership of certain other people as chattel property, without any concern over their right to liberty and the pursuit of hapiness.

The further bastardization of govt. changes outcomes by virtue of granting civil (legal) rights...to the corporation.


Your creator has given me no rights at all.


Then you have no rights, only the privliges granted by gov the gov gives and the gov can take away

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: What if we burned the us and state constitutions? - 1/28/2013 10:45:59 PM   
ClassIsInSession


Posts: 305
Joined: 7/26/2010
Status: offline 		The government produces nothing therefore cannot in reality give or take anything, except through stealing it. A robin hood complex if you will. And therein lies the problem. The government robs from Peter to pay Paul, and Paul is always happy. And this party's Paul is different than that party's Paul. That's why the pendulum swings back and forth. If the government would stay out of people's affair and let contracts be binding quite simply, we could deal with individuals (which is the idea of liberty) rather than collectives that often either loosely align or disenfranchise out right "groups" of people.

(in reply to BamaD)
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RE: What if we burned the us and state constitutions? - 1/28/2013 10:54:13 PM   
wittynamehere


Posts: 759
Joined: 2/5/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
What if we burned the us and state constitutions?
Abolished all the state legislatures.

Yeah, I think about this kind of thing regularly.
Where do rights come from? A creator? No such thing. Our parents? Nope. Religious books? No. The government? No way, they're busy ensuring I have even fewer rights.
Fact is, rights come from ourselves. If you don't name (and CLAIM) rights for yourself, any that you happen to get are gifts.
Burn the paperwork, it doesn't guarantee us a damn thing anyway. We have to name and protect our own rights, and it has always been that way. Anyone claiming rights come from supernatural beings or other humans are deluding themselves for one reason or another.

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RE: What if we burned the us and state constitutions? - 1/28/2013 11:02:54 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Well based on my belief system, you are born with rights, as a sentient being, given you by a supreme being I chose to call god. If you happen to be atheist, then you are born with those rights because you are sentient being.

Governments do not exist to give you rights, they exist to protect them, and when the government starts taking those rights away, it is time for the citizenry to replace the government, by force if necessary.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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RE: What if we burned the us and state constitutions? - 1/28/2013 11:07:05 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		You have it.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: What if we burned the us and state constitutions? - 1/28/2013 11:55:38 PM   
imdoingitagain


Posts: 77
Joined: 4/7/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Well based on my belief system, you are born with rights, as a sentient being, given you by a supreme being I chose to call god. If you happen to be atheist, then you are born with those rights because you are sentient being.

Governments do not exist to give you rights, they exist to protect them, and when the government starts taking those rights away, it is time for the citizenry to replace the government, by force if necessary.

Exactly.
This is just one more reason for me, as a nonbeliever, to NEVER claim the title of "atheist": People now twisting not having a belief in a supreme being to mean "Oh, well, there is no creator so you don't have any rights." Un-f'ing-believable.
I really seem to find myself hating the human race more and more.

Next they're going to start telling us that we don't "have the right to unregulated rights" or that "The Constitution and the Bill of Rights is not absolute"... Oh, wait...

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RE: What if we burned the us and state constitutions? - 1/28/2013 11:58:40 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Nope, bama, I cant be right, I am a gun loving, tree hugging, democrat that believes in government financial responsibility with a reasonable attempt by the government to insure a quality education, welfare programs with the goals of getting people OFF welfare, limited abortions, and no Breed Specific Laws.

In other words, I think dogs should be protected under the constitution as well, maybe horses to. Not house cats, they are actually aliens with the goal of taking over the world and making humans worship them as gods.

Uh, have I mentioned I might be a little crazy?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: What if we burned the us and state constitutions? - 1/29/2013 12:35:16 AM   
Fellow


Posts: 1486
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

What if we burned the us and state constitutions?


I have actually different idea: what if we follow the constitution (restore the republic)?

Otherwise, anarchy is not actually so bad option. It is worth trying. There are ideologies and systems worked out to proceed. For example: http://www.freedomainradio.com/Videos.aspx

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 20
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